JOHN DILLINGER'S PARKER

[George Lander]

I had lunch today with an old friend, and afterwards got to handle the Parker VH 12 gauge that John Dillinger carried on a sling under his coat when he was visiting the local banks. The barrels are 12 inches long and the stock was shortened by half (but later he had the cut off piece reattached). I ordered a PGCA letter today for him. He was given the gun by Melvin Purvis, the G-Man in charge of the detail that killed Dillinger outside of the Biograph Theater in Chicago. The gun will eventually be put on display with other interesting guns from his collection.

Best Regards, George

[Dean Romig]

George, where will the display be and what other guns will be included in the display?

[Steve Huffman]

I would not think this gun would be legal to have in person

[Daryl Corona]

George,
If i'm reading your post correctly Dillinger was given the gun by a Federal agent. That does'nt make sense.
Just wondering,
Daryl

[King Brown]

The G-man absconded with the Parker and passed it along to George's friend.

[Francis Morin]

I would not think this gun would be legal to have in person-- Ditto the 20 gauge Ithaca auto-burglar, a NID with a unusual stock that gave a nasty recoil effect- and short no-choke barrels.

Just re-read the 1961 edition of "The American Gun' and besides covering some of the rifles and tactics involved in: The War between The States, The Boer War and WW1- they also had a full feature on the preferred weapons of the 1920's-1930's gangster and bootlegging element that the ill-advised Volstead Act of 1919 brought on the American scene (not just Chicago)

The sawed-off 12 gauge was very common, and the 1911-A-1 Colt .45 and the 1921 Thompson SMG were used a great deal- the "Tommy Gun" because so many were made and never employed in the trench warfare of WW1- so they sat in storage- you could legally buy on in `1932 $200 with detachable buttstock, magazines, cleaner and oiler for the Blish system-

But Dillinger, Bonnie Parker (did she have a VH 12?) and her partner Clyde Barrow, and others involved in the bank heist-high speed getaway scenario- preferred the great BAR- removing the front bipod, Dillinger even shortened the barrel from 24" on one he "borrowed" from an Indiana NG Armory, to better fit into his V-8 Ford--at CQC range, the .45 ACP is unexcelled, but the BAR in 30-Gov't-06 with AP loads would stop a pursuing police vehicle- and when Bonnie & Clyde died in the ambush set up by Texas Ranger Fred Hamer- many of the men were carrying BARs's--

How Dillinger got the VH 12?? Great area for research indeed. :bigbye:

[George Lander]

Just to clarify this before it gets confusing. G-MAN, Melvin Purvis, was presented with Dillinger's Parker by the Director, J. Edgar Hoover. Purvis later presented it to my friend and it is properly registered with BATF. The gun will, eventually most probably, be put of display at the South Carolina Military Museum in Columbia, South Carolina. The owner has, already, put much of his collection there that encompasses the "Roaring Twenties" and Carbine Williams. It is well worth a trip there to see if you are in the area and it's free (donations accepted).

Best Regards, George

[charlie cleveland]

neat storey about the parker and its former owner...even john dillinger knew a good gun when he saw one...thanks GEORGE... charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Need that serial number and a scan of the PGCA letter. Get with the program, George. I never did see the Dillinger name when copying the Parker Brothers records at Ilion back in 1998, but I was looking more for A-1 Specials and competititive shooters.

[Francis Morin]

John Dillinger a registered owner of any gun he used? Huum- a special order sent from the Crown Point lock-up in Indiana to Meriden for a "stagecoach special Vulcan grade 12??""- Huum- I don't think so--

Melvin Purvis a real "FUBAR" type who wanted to get ahead in Hoover's new "Gang-Busters" team of Feds- Just the kind of nutcase you want in charge of planning your "special ops" missions- He got word that Dillinger and crew were up at the Little Bohemia Lodge in Northern WI- went in and shot up a Ford coupe leaving the parking lot at night, assuming it was Dillinger- Wrong-o-- It was three civilian CCC employees having a few brewskis after work- and yet Hoover kept this trigger happy idiot in the FBI-

Dillinger was, without a doubt, the smartest and the most cunning of all the gangsters extant in his era- from farm roots in IN- he tried not to keep any counter or till money in his "cowboy score" bank heists- just the stuff in the vault- so that the farmers, already pretty much screwed by the Depression and the Dust Bowls, could keep their few hard-earned dollars-

Like all evil-doers, Dillinger had an Achilles heel however- He ignored the wisdom of Don Vito Corleone, who taught that women and the men who traffic in them, are weak and can bring down a powerful man if he makes the mistake of thinking with his zipper instead of what's between his ears-

With Purvis in command, and the fabled Lady In The Red Dress as the key, they ambushed him outside the Biograph Theater, where he had just watched a Clark Gable feature- Luckily this time, no civilians were shot!:bigbye::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[George Lander]

Francis: From what my friend tells me and what is said in Alston Purvis' (Melvin's son) book "VENDETTA", Melvin Purvis looked on J. Edgar Hoover as a surrogate father figure. It is true that several innocent CCC workers were accidentally shot (friendly fire) at Little Bohemia, however Purvis and his men were under fire from a number of gangsters there including Machine Gun Kelly all of whom later escaped out the back of the building. When Dillinger was killed he was carrying the Parker under his coat plus a Colt 1911 in his belt. I think that Purvis was anything but a FUBAR. He just got screwed over by the man that he admired most and who gave him some faulty intel.

Bill: I'm sure that, as Francis said, the Parker probably was stolen by Dillinger but it will be interesting if the research letter shows who it was originally consigned to. I'm going to take some pictures of it next week when I see my friend again and also the PGCA letter when it arrives and I'll post them here. He really wants to find someone to make a high quality display case for it along with Purvis Colt 1911 that he was carrying when Dillinger was killed.

Best Regards, George

[John Dallas]

A friend of mine rescued a bank safe from a small bank in NW Oho that Dillinger attempted to break into. He failed but there are still marks indicating his efforts. He also has the newspaper account of Dillenger's attempt. The safe, which has gold gilt trim, now houses my friend's extensive Luger collection. Had to do a major reinforcement of the floor to support the safe.

[Francis Morin]

[quote=George Lander;43932]Francis: From what my friend tells me and what is said in Alston Purvis' (Melvin's son) book "VENDETTA", Melvin Purvis looked on J. Edgar Hoover as a surrogate father figure. It is true that several innocent CCC workers were accidentally shot (friendly fire) at Little Bohemia, however Purvis and his men were under fire from a number of gangsters there including Machine Gun Kelly all of whom later escaped out the back of the building. When Dillinger was killed he was carrying the Parker under his coat plus a Colt 1911 in his belt. I think that Purvis was anything but a FUBAR. He just got screwed over by the man that he admired most and who gave him some faulty intel.

Bill: I'm sure that, as Francis said, the Parker probably was stolen by Dillinger but it will be interesting if the research letter shows who it was originally consigned to. I'm going to take some pictures of it next week when I see my friend again and also the PGCA letter when it arrives and I'll post them here. He really wants to find someone to make a high quality display case for it along with Purvis Colt 1911 that he was carrying when Dillinger was killed.

Best Regards, George[/So we can add Melvin Purvis's name to the list of others in a command position who were screwed over by high-ups on the C of C-- Lt. William Calley USA 1968 comes to mind-- But George, your usage of the mis-nomer "friendly fire"- huum-- it is true Dillinger and MG Kelley and others escaped from the shoot-out at Little Bo, but I think about a term from another George- in this case the late George Carlin- who once posed this conundrum-- "If fire fighters fight fires, and crime fighters fight crimes, what exactly do freedom fighters fight then?-- USA Ranger (Airborne) and former NFL star Pat Tillman- supposedly died due to that Fubar- and a few Officers got "fragged", but if I had been Purvis and found out that my orders lead to the tragic death of three CCC workers- it was dead dark night, few lights at the Bohemia. Purvis wanted to impress John Edgar Hoover- judged with 20-20 hindsight, he should have held his position, called in back-up and covered all the back roads and lakes, and waited until daylight, and tried to get Dillinger to surrended-

J. Edgar Hoover and "Tricky Dick" Nixon- two men who abused the power of their office to punish in a petty way anyone they felt was against them- and Hoover was a cross-dressing nutcase- he held so much power that even LBJ- no "panty-waist" and the below the belt infighting of politics in DC was cautious in his dealings with him-- Just as Nixon like to such down Scotch aboard the Prez. Yacht and plot and scheme, J. Edgar loved to bet the ponies- and his underworld "ties" arranged for him to win on "rigged races"--At least Dillinger was a "in your face" criminal, not a "behind your back variety" like Nixon and Hoover--If we hadn't had the Volstead Act and the Suffrage act that enabled many tee-totaling well meaning but ill-advised ladies new power, Capone would have been just another pimp in Five Points NY (aka- Hell's Kitchen) and Hoover would have remained a shiny-#@@ed office clerk in the Treasury Dept-- IMO anyway:bigbye:

[George Lander]

Well said Francis but hindsight is always 20-20! I never knew Purvis but do know the guy who knew him & I'll take his word to the bank! Lt. Calley was a scapegoat for his "superior ossifers" and Pat Tillman got FUBAR'D by a FNG. Combat is a crazy thing at best, but the responsibility always flows downhill instead of up. "S**t flows downhill, the CO chews out my ass & I chew out yours. It's called the chain of command. Small wonder some "senior ossifers" got fragged IMHO!

Best Regards, George

[L.V. Purvis]

This is a very interesting thread to me as Melvin Purvis was my Great Uncle. Good story on the Parker too. I can't wait to hear what comes out of the research letter.

Lloyd Purvis

[Francis Morin]

This is a very interesting thread to me as Melvin Purvis was my Great Uncle. Good story on the Parker too. I can't wait to hear what comes out of the research letter.

Lloyd Purvis-- I only mentioned the FUBAR at Little Bo in a context of history, just as I would have with my favorite General, Robert E. Lee, in reviewing his colossal blunders at Gettysburg in 1863, or for that matter, the Limey Generals involved at the bloodbath of the Somme in France in 1916, the Courts-Martial of Gen. Billy Mitchell circa 1926, Limey Sir Bernie L. Montgomery's op. "Market (Airborne)- Garden (Ground troops) in Holland circa 1944, Truman's relieving Gen Doug MacArthur of Command in Korea in 1951, Prez. Jack K and the CIA- Bay of Pigs FUBAR in Cuber (Cuba) 1961, then LBJ's plunging us into the "Big Muddy" vis a vis the Gulf of Tonkin incident in August 1964, MACV C-in-C Gen Westmoreland's insistence on a costly war of attrition against an unseen enemy on his HOME TURF, Slick Willie Clinton's cowardice in Not bagging Bin Laden when he had the chance, and the list goes on--

When my other favorite General- George Smith Patton Jr. advised his field commanders in the words of Frederick the Great- "Audace-etc"-- remember, he had the best intel and staff (Colonel Koch masterminded the Winter of 1944 90% shift to relieve Bastogne and the brave men of the 101st AB encircled there by the Krauts) and he had that rare sixth sense few leaders are gifted with--

So- my apologies to the living relative of Melvin Purvis who posted here, we had our share of Junior "Ossifers" in Vietnam who thought that bagging a high enemy body count was a key to promotion- Captain Oliver North fell into that sector-- I was only commenting, blessed with a somewhat keen interest in history, and 20-20 hindsight- on a scenario I did not witness firsthand- How Dillinger managed to steal that 12 VH, and if he did (as I suspect he did) amputate the barrels, is fuel for another great search-:bigbye:

[L.V. Purvis]

No apologies needed. I have a very odd family tree... Melvin Purvis on one side, Bugsy Moran on the other. (Melvin's nephew married Bugsy's niece and created my Grandfather). All had passed on before I came along, so no stories. I've read alot about the G-Man and the popularity that ensued after Dillinger's death. I am always amazed that others still remember that short part of history. I've been collecting G-Man stuff (mostly the cereal box stuff) for about 20 years. And now a Parker story to go with it.

Best regards,

[Fred Preston]

Ironman, I get down to Noble County, south of Caldwell, every now and then to chase critters on the B&L coal lands. Anywhere near your neighborhood? Grouse used to be plentiful there, but have been hard to find the last few years.

[L.V. Purvis]

My Parents both went to high school in Noble County. My Sister is a Doctor in Caldwell as well. When you could still locate grouse in Ohio...that was a great place to hunt. Now it's just a great place to walk around. I am one of those that is a glutton for punishment and I still put in many miles every season just to come away dissappointed. I average 40-50 grouse hunts per season in Ohio and have only averaged just over 17 flushes per season over the last 10 years. I also hunt twice a year in Michigan where my Brit and I will find as many as 60 birds in a 3 day hunt. Spoils me...then it's back to Ohio where they are few and far between.

[George Lander]

I had another pleasant lunch today with my friend and spent most of the afternoon listening to his stories. He was a friend of Col. William Fairbairn and Capt. Peter Mason of what is now the British SAS. I heard lots of good stories about them & looked over the album of photos taken of Carbine Williams on his trip to Hollywood for the making on the movie. I remembered to take some pictures of Dillinger's Parker which I will try to figure out how to post here.

Best Regards, George

[Francis Morin]

I had another pleasant lunch today with my friend and spent most of the afternoon listening to his stories. He was a friend of Col. William Fairbairn and Capt. Peter Mason of what is now the British SAS. I heard lots of good stories about them & looked over the album of photos taken of Carbine Williams on his trip to Hollywood for the making on the movie. I remembered to take some pictures of Dillinger's Parker which I will try to figure out how to post here.

Best Regards, George--That style knife was featured in the 1959 movie classic: "The Bridge On The River Kwai"- Perhaps AKA as the "Fairbairn-Sykes Commando knife-- I believe Jimmy Stewart was the actor chosen to portray Carbine Williams in that movie. His design was good for that time, like the BAR is was magazine fed, unlike the clip fed M-1 Garand. Too bad it was not adopted for better ammo with more stopping power at carbine ranges (200-300 yards)- that weapon in 7.62x39 would have been superb- I have a older (1978 era) Ruger 10/22, scoped, and it has the same sweet handling characteristics as does the M-1 Carbine as designed by Mr. Williams-I love it for shooting inside farm buildings for rodents, coons and woodchucks- with CCI mini-Mag HP rounds. I have often wondered if the late Bill Ruger may have copied somewhat the M-1 carbine when he designed his 10/22, just as he may well have copied (sans the toggle bolt) Georg Luger's P-08 design with his .22 pistol--:bigbye:

[George Lander]

Even more interesting is the fact that my friend made many tape recordings of his interviews and meetings with Carbine Williams. He is now having them transferred to compact discs. I told him that I believe that there would be a great deal of interest in these recordings if he had them available for sale. He is the author of the wonderful book "CARBINE" now in it's third printing. The personal stories that he relates, like the trip with Carbine to the gun show in NC and the stop at the gas station/honkey tonk on the way home alone make it worth the read. On a personal note:

About fifteen years ago I took my son to a little town in NC called Waxhaws. He had a teaching job there. While he was at work I scouted out the local gun shop. They had the normal assortment of black guns and hunting rifles and semi auto shotguns. I asked the owner if they had any old guns and he brought out two. One was a Sharps carbine and the other was a Buffalo Newton .30 caliber bolt action army rifle. We negotiated some on the prices, but since I didn't have much money with me I told the owner that I would be back to buy the two guns and left him a small deposit. On my way back to SC I kept thinking that I remembered reading about a Newton rifle somewhere. It then struck me that I had read it in my friend's book "Carbine" and that was the rifle that Carbine was carrying at his liquor still when the deputy sheriff was killed. I immediately called my friend and told him about my discovery. He drove to the gun shop and closed the deal on the rifle before my son & I got home. He later told me that he is sure that it was the very same rifle that Carbine was carrying on that fateful day. It had been buried for a time while Carbine was in prison but later retreived and sold. Talk about coincidence! Well I thought that this might be an interesting story for some here.

Best Regards, George

[charlie cleveland]

keep them great stories coming GEORGE.. thanks charlie

[Kevin McCormack]

Just for the record, when Dillinger was shot to death by FBI agents outside the Biograph Theatre in Chicago, the city was experiencing one of the worst heat waves on record, which is why Dillinger, prostitute/madam Anna Sage (not her real name), and Polly Hamilton, one of Sage's call girls, were in the Biograph in the first place - it was one of the very few theatres in the city with air conditioning. Dillinger wore no jacket of any kind, carried no sawed-off Parker shotgun under it, nor displayed a M1911 Colt pistol stuck in his belt. When he attempted to withdraw the small pistol he carried in his pants pockets at all times, agents opened fire and he was struck multiple times. He died at the scene.

[Francis Morin]

Carrier developed the first air conditioning systems, and the Biograph, on State St- was the first major theater in Chicago to have it- If memory serves, the movie was "Manhattan Melodrama" with Clark Gable and I believe Myrna Loy-

[George Lander]

I have some pictures of Dillinger's Parker and some of Carbine Williams, but I don't know how to post them here. Can someone help?

Best Regards, George

[Robin Lewis]

At the top of this page there is a "FAQ" link, click on it and look at the section on posting pictures.

If for some reason you have difficulties, go to the main page (www.parkerguns.org) and click on the "FAQ" link on the left side of that page. Near the bottom of the page are two video's you can watch that demo how to resize and upload pictures.

[George Lander]

Thanks Robin: I think that I have finally figured it out.

Best Regards, George

[George Lander]

If anyone here would like a copy of "CARBINE" signed by the author please let me know & I'll arrange to have it done.

Best Regards, George

[George Lander]

I got to play with John Dillinger's Parker again today. I ordered a research letter from Mark Conrad but I got one digit of the SN wrong the first time. I have sent the right one and perhaps soon we will know some more. I've had two requests for the author to sign his book "CARBINE" which is available in soft cover from the South Carolina Military Museum for $19.95 if any one here is interested. I had him sign one today and the other member already has a copy that he is going to bring down to have signed.

The museum also has copies of "VENDETTA" concerning the relationship between Melvin Purvis and J. Edgar Hoover written by Alson Purvis, Melvin's son.

Best Regards, George

[George Lander]

Just for the record, when Dillinger was shot to death by FBI agents outside the Biograph Theatre in Chicago, the city was experiencing one of the worst heat waves on record, which is why Dillinger, prostitute/madam Anna Sage (not her real name), and Polly Hamilton, one of Sage's call girls, were in the Biograph in the first place - it was one of the very few theatres in the city with air conditioning. Dillinger wore no jacket of any kind, carried no sawed-off Parker shotgun under it, nor displayed a M1911 Colt pistol stuck in his belt. When he attempted to withdraw the small pistol he carried in his pants pockets at all times, agents opened fire and he was struck multiple times. He died at the scene.

Kevin: You are correct. This is the pistol that Dillinger was carrying when he was killed.

Best Regards, George