Sat down to buy a new shotgun today

[Steve McCarty]

Today I grabbed my computer tuned into Gunsinternational and clicked onto the shotguns site. I figure I've got $2K to spend without too much response from the boss. Might go to $3. First I looked at the Army Navy shotguns sight. I was really temped to order a WC Scott 12 for $1,800. A very nice 12 gauge, solid steel barrels, Skeet and extra full. Beautiful wood. I may still buy it. I am somehow drawn to buy guns like those owned by Ernest Hemingway. His favorite was an WC Scott gun not far from the one I want. But he also blew his brains out with his WC Scott which gives me a cold chill and drives me from owning such a gun. So I looked at Parkers....Now friends, Parkers are "spendy" as we say in Oregon. However I found an okay looking Trojan in 16 gauge. Not in the best of shape, but $2000 which is in my price range....but Trojans don't blow my shirt up...much anyway. I checked the Baker site and found several Bavarians (sp?). Not bad guns, and not too expensive. Those Bavarians are nice looking guns and I can get one in 16, which I like. So what would you buy? Also saw a beat up Fox Sterly for $650 in 16...not in the best condition, but I own a Fox Sterly and like them.

[Wayne Owens]

My suggestion is to pay $40 and become a PGCA member. You will then have access to the For Sale section on this forum where many nice guns at good prices have been, are, and will be listed.

[Phil Yearout]

Don’t turn up your nose at a Trojan, especially in 16ga. 2k seems a bit pricy however, especially in the condition you mention.

[Dan Steingraber]

You could own a beautiful D grade 12 gauge Parker in your price range or a great “shooter” V grade 12 gauge for $1,500 or less.

[Kenny Graft]

Fox, Parker, L.C. Smith, Ithica. Set tight and keep looking and saving for what you really want. The fun is in the hunt! 12 gauge guns are going to be the best price point, but do you really want a 12? Do not forget to buy a gun that fits you and you can shoot well. If buying a 16 look for one that is 6lbs-4oz or a little less. Buying online, make sure the seller has a return policy just in case they missed mentioning a unexpectable flaw. Ask all the questions about the guns condition. Do the barrels ring, do they have any dents or dent repairs, are the bores bright. Is the gun tight on face and so on. Good luck with your hunt....(-: SXS ohio

[Russ Jackson]

One other suggestion ,you probably won't be looking at Damascus Barreled guns if you're new to buying Old Doubles but should one catch your eye with Damascus Barrels ask about the Bore Condition and the Minimal Barrel Wall Thickness as the early powders caused corrosion ,hence possible pitting ,this is especially important with the guns that are advertised with exceptionally clean Inside Bores ,which may have been honed and again make sure of the return policy to give you time to get the Wall Thickness Measured !

[tom tutwiler]

IMO the best deal on a 16 gauge out there right now is the Fox Sterlingworth. 28" barreled guns are everywhere and pretty darn cheap. Later Savage made guns will have a better chance of having more modern dimensions and also 2 3/4" chambers. Most of them will be under 6.5 pounds. They are pretty simple guns which is a good thing. PS. Finding ones with a good bit of case color and unturned screws will be a bit tougher, but they are certainly out there. 12 gauges are at give away prices, but the 16's handle much better in the woods imo.

[Bill Murphy]

A 12 gauge VH Parker or Fox Sterlingworth in high original condition would be my choice.

[Daryl Corona]

Keep looking. There are decent Parkers out there for under 2k. I also suggest to consider a Fox Sterlingworth or an A grade, and or a Lefever, or both.

[Mike Koneski]

Don't turn your nose up on a solid Trojan. They break birds and take game as well as a graded gun will. Personally, I like VH Parkers. Solid guns that shoot and shoot and shoot.... I have some higher grade guns only because they were at the right price. As WHO mentioned, join the PGCA and you'll have access to the "For Sale" forum where you are guaranteed to find some nice shotguns.

[Garth Gustafson]

I love 16ga and both of my Parkers are 16s. But unless you load your own, just know we are dealing with a long term 16ga ammo shortage for our vintage 2-1/2" chambered guns. You'll be very disappointed when it comes time to buy shells. 12 ga and 20 ga shells are more available. Happy hunting!

[Steven Groh]

You could own a beautiful D grade 12 gauge Parker in your price range or a great “shooter” V grade 12 gauge for $1,500 or less.

Good luck finding a D grade gun in good condition for $2,000.
I would rather have a high condition V, than a beat-up D.

[Andrew Sacco]

I would take a 16 or 20 Trojan in 28” that fit me all day long. I felt the same about Trojans till I bought one in 16g. 12 tend to be heavy but don’t let the simplicity of a Trojan fool you. That’s their beauty. Handle a 16 Trojan before you judge one. It will still be going a century after you’re 6 feet on the wrong side of the flower bed!

[Steve McCarty]

My suggestion is to pay $40 and become a PGCA member. You will then have access to the For Sale section on this forum where many nice guns at good prices have been, are, and will be listed.

I think I am a member. When I sign in my name comes up. I joined in 2011, I think. Sorry, my memory is shot. I used to be able to recall when and where and for how much I purchased each of my guns and I owned hundreds. Sold about half of them after I turned 78. Figured I'd give others a chance to love them as I had done for 50 years. I love being alive tho and am enjoying the Parker Pages and reading old copies of Double Gun.

[todd allen]

I've got a really sweet little 28" 20 gauge Trojan, and it is a magic wand!

[Steve McCarty]

I would take a 16 or 20 Trojan in 28” that fit me all day long. I felt the same about Trojans till I bought one in 16g. 12 tend to be heavy but don’t let the simplicity of a Trojan fool you. That’s their beauty. Handle a 16 Trojan before you judge one. It will still be going a century after you’re 6 feet on the wrong side of the flower bed!

Ah, yes. Most of my old friends and many squadron mates (I was a Marine fighter pilot) are gone. While I loved flying attack fighters and operating off of
carriers, the absolutely favorite times in my life were hunting bob white quail in western Kansas. I shot a Japanese O/U Browning. My uncle shot a Win Model 12 and we had a ball. There were half a dozen of us shooting. No dogs. Ah there is a blond who creeps into my memory.....

[Steve McCarty]

One other suggestion ,you probably won't be looking at Damascus Barreled guns if you're new to buying Old Doubles but should one catch your eye with Damascus Barrels ask about the Bore Condition and the Minimal Barrel Wall Thickness as the early powders caused corrosion ,hence possible pitting ,this is especially important with the guns that are advertised with exceptionally clean Inside Bores ,which may have been honed and again make sure of the return policy to give you time to get the Wall Thickness Measured !

I am 80 and have been shooting and buying guns for a long time. I was a Marine when we thought the M-14 was cutting edge. I've been shooting antique shotguns for 50 years. I prefer damascus barrels. I appreciate your concerns. But really, as we, me, creep up to the end of our lives things change
.

[Stan Hillis]

Ah, yes. Most of my old friends and many squadron mates (I was a Marine fighter pilot) are gone. While I loved flying attack fighters and operating off of
carriers, the absolutely favorite times in my life were hunting bob white quail in western Kansas. I shot a Japanese O/U Browning. My uncle shot a Win Model 12 and we had a ball. There were half a dozen of us shooting. No dogs. Ah there is a blond who creeps into my memory.....

Thank you for your service, Steve. One of the best friends I ever had flew F4-U Corsairs in the latter part of WWII (briefly with Pappy Boyington) and also Korea. He flew off carriers as well. I'd love to be able to sit down with you and hear some of your stories the way I used to do with Maj. Jerome Wilson, USMC.

Good luck with your "hunt".

[Bill Murphy]

Steve, if you think you are a member of PGCA, you should get a Parker Pages quarterly and your name on your post should include "PGCA Member". Contact our administrator for information.

[Steve McCarty]

Thank you folks for your comments. I own a very nice Fox Sterlingworth and have for 50 years and I love it. I came with a leg-a-muffin case. The gun is a 12 and locks up like a bank vault. It's a F and Mod and since I have been pretty much shooting nothing but Skeet I haven't shot it much. But it is a wonderful old shotgun.

As for my on going search for a new gun, I have looked at hundreds....thousands? I have pretty much settled on a Baker Paragon. It appears like new and is a side lock gun, which I prefer. (Most of my guns are boxlocks tho.) I like the history of Baker guns and this Paragon is a thing of beauty. Price $1900. My decision is still in the works. I appreciate your comments folks. I am somehow challenged by my age....80. While I feel great, I am 80. I'm not sure what my future holds for me...but I ain't dead yet and I feel wonderful. My shooting buddies are either dead or have moved away. But darn it, I want a new shotgun.

[Steven Groh]

I've got a really sweet little 28" 20 gauge Trojan, and it is a magic wand!

Got one too!

[Steve McCarty]

Thank you for your service, Steve. One of the best friends I ever had flew F4-U Corsairs in the latter part of WWII (briefly with Pappy Boyington) and also Korea. He flew off carriers as well. I'd love to be able to sit down with you and hear some of your stories the way I used to do with Maj. Jerome Wilson, USMC.

Good luck with your "hunt".

I never did meet "Pappy" Boyington, but I was a member of VMA-214. I was the intelligence officer (S-2) in the early 70s. When Pappy was the CO of 214 it was VMF (heavier than air, Marine fighter) It was a fighter/attack squadron when I was a member. The Blacksheep. I always loved contacting Center saying, "This is Blacksheep so and so". I also read "Ba Ba Blacksheep" when I was a high school kid and I became a member of the squadron. GREAT! Really a dream. When I was there we received brand new A-4Ms which replaced our older A4Fs. A neat jet plane. Now just think for a moment. You are strapped into a single seat fighter at the end of the runway. You pour the coal to it and blast down the runway to take off...the g's throw you back into the seat. At 150 knots you pull the stick back into the pit of your stomach. The nose eases up and you leave the ground. Your rate of climb gauge pegs at 6,000 feet per minute. You raise the gear and climb like a homesick angle. The ground falls away. Now folks doing that is just amazing. Life doesn't get much better than that.

[Clark McCombe]

Reading the above….
Worth the price of the membership, and far more.

[Stan Hillis]

Maj. Wilson told me of the bombing runs they would make in the Corsairs, and how exciting they were. He said that, at some point, they installed some armor plate under and behind the pilot's seat to give a measure of protection against anti-aircraft fire. The problem was that due to space limitations they had to keep the armor plate very narrow. He laughed and said that when you dropped the bomb(s) or fired the missiles and then pulled the stick back to climb out of danger you learned to squeeze yourself into a very narrow profile to allow that narrow plate to provide as much "cover" as possible.

I was part of a reserve attack squadron, VA-205, for some 4 1/2 years. Like you, we also had A4 Skyhawks. Our squadron logo was a green diving falcon. I was in ground support and would attach the probe and huffer to the belly of the jet to start it for the pilot, who was strapped in. We communicated via hand signals. I can vividly remember bringing the rpms up to where the pilot wanted them, him giving me the signal to stand by, and him lighting the engine off. I also hot fueled the A4s at times. Exciting stuff for a country boy.

[Steve McCarty]

Let's see...it was one finger for electrical power, two fingers to start the "huffer" three fingers to shut off the huffer and four fingers to switch to internal electrical power. The "M" version of the A4 had an internal starter and we didn't need the external power to start it up. The problem was early versions of the system didn't always work. The A-4, known as the "scooter" was a wonderful attack aircraft. I did a lot of ACM (air combat manuvering) against Air Force F102s/F106s and we did very well against them. Those guys used WWII tactics and we used newer tactics. Loose duce....A form of the thatch weave. That was fun stuff....exciting. Full power, going straight down, going super sonic, really exciting stuff. I was 26. I'm 80 now and think I could still do it....sorta.

[Phil Yearout]

Back to the original premise: I’ve found that I rarely go looking for something without already knowing exactly what I want, and I hardly ever find it, or at least not exactly what I had in my head. That can be dangerous because in the instances when I went ahead and settled for something close I almost always ended up disappointed.

On the other hand, when I’m not looking for anything in particular and just come across something, I usually know right then that it’s right. And it is.

[Steve McCarty]

One other suggestion ,you probably won't be looking at Damascus Barreled guns if you're new to buying Old Doubles but should one catch your eye with Damascus Barrels ask about the Bore Condition and the Minimal Barrel Wall Thickness as the early powders caused corrosion ,hence possible pitting ,this is especially important with the guns that are advertised with exceptionally clean Inside Bores ,which may have been honed and again make sure of the return policy to give you time to get the Wall Thickness Measured !

Of course you are right, but I have purchased over the years demascus barrels and have shot them with confidence. Have they been honed? I don't know. I shoot old shotguns, might not be too smart, but that is what I do. I've got an old LC Smith O grade, a 1900 Remy and an ancient Astra Spanish double. Pretty gun. I've got two Parkers, a GH and an SC, neat guns, but my favorites to shoot are old Winny Model 12s in 16 and 12. The guns are worn silver, from the 20s. Hemingway would love them. I do too.

[Russ Jackson]

Hello Steve , by your first post , I was thinking you were new to the " Old Shotgun World " after your post started to take form it is apparent you are not ! I enjoy shooting damascus Barrelled guns myself to the point that I bit the bullet so to speak and purchased a John Hosford's Barrel Wall Thickness Gauge many years ago just to be sure of any thickness problems ,hence the reason I mentioned it ,new buyers often don't give it a thought but a lot happens to these old guns over a hundred year or so and there is no way to be sure without measuring them ! Have you found that new Double you started searching for at the beginning of your thread ,if so what have you decided on ?

[Craig Larter]

Back to the original premise: I’ve found that I rarely go looking for something without already knowing exactly what I want, and I hardly ever find it, or at least not exactly what I had in my head. That can be dangerous because in the instances when I went ahead and settled for something close I almost always ended up disappointed.

On the other hand, when I’m not looking for anything in particular and just come across something, I usually know right then that it’s right. And it is.
Phil: I'm in the same boat. If I'm looking for a specific gun it never surfaces. Now I'm just looking for a great Fox or Parker. I know if I found if I don't have to make any compromises.and love it immediately.

[JAMES HALL]

Phil: I'm in the same boat. If I'm looking for a specific gun it never surfaces. Now I'm just looking for a great Fox or Parker. I know if I found if I don't have to make any compromises.and love it immediately.

I thought you found it in the parking lot at Ernie's

[Steve McCarty]

Keep looking. There are decent Parkers out there for under 2k. I also suggest to consider a Fox Sterlingworth or an A grade, and or a Lefever, or both.

I've been messing with antique shotguns for 50+ years. I own a wonderful Sterly in 12 and a very nice, but low grade Lefever 12. I am drawn to old double guns. They sing. I also like 16 gauge. They seem to shoot as hard as do 12s and the guns are just enough lighter to make a difference. Least to me. Now this may make you guys cringe, but I just bought a 16 gauge Model 12 Winny, made in 1934. No finish, okay wood. It fits me.

[Steve McCarty]

I bought a WC Scott 12 demascus with hammers, F & F from the Guns International site. Chambers are probably short. I'll shoot RST, but I've shot regular 2 3/4 inch shells in demascus before just as Sherman Bell said I could. Still I feel more comfortable shooting RST. I'll try it at trap first. I have no idea how tight the chokes are. The gun was made in 1885 when chokes were new. Anyway I'll see. Nice looking gun. Pretty wood and clear demascus pattern.

[Steve McCarty]

Fox, Parker, L.C. Smith, Ithica. Set tight and keep looking and saving for what you really want. The fun is in the hunt! 12 gauge guns are going to be the best price point, but do you really want a 12? Do not forget to buy a gun that fits you and you can shoot well. If buying a 16 look for one that is 6lbs-4oz or a little less. Buying online, make sure the seller has a return policy just in case they missed mentioning a unexpectable flaw. Ask all the questions about the guns condition. Do the barrels ring, do they have any dents or dent repairs, are the bores bright. Is the gun tight on face and so on. Good luck with your hunt....(-: SXS ohio

Thanks for you comments SXS. I ended up buying a W.S. Scott in 12 F&F. It is a hammer gun, damascus, 2.5 I'm sure. Looks like a nice gun in the pictures. I'll see what I get.

[allen newell]

Of all my Parkers, my 20 ga Trojan is the favorite..

[todd allen]

I have a sweet little 20 ga Trojan with 28" untouched barrels.
It's a sweet little quail gun. Carries like a cue stick.

[Steven Groh]

I just got my 20 ga O-frame Trojan back from the Gunsmith, after having the barrels rust blued, the chokes changed, and the chambers lengthened, and it shoots like an absolute dream. I think it is going to be my favorite gun. I love that little gun, and I don’t care a wit that it doesn’t have that cartoon character engraving that would make it a lot more valuable.

[Steve McCarty]

Of all my Parkers, my 20 ga Trojan is the favorite..

A 20 gauge Trojan would be wonderful! I have my dad's little 20 gauge Knickerbocher. It's marked "New York Gun Company" I think. (I'm not looking at it as I write.) Gun was made in the early 20th Century. It is the only gun my dad ever owned. I never saw him miss a single shot with the little gun. It feels like a little Trojan.