Damascus, Twisted and Laminated - same?

[BillCorn]

Ok folks, I had my backhammer (S/N 287) checked out by my gunsmith and he says do not shoot this because it is a Damascus or twisted steel barrel. The barrel is stamped ‘Parker Bro Meridien Conn Laminated Steel’. He said he checked this with Hopkins Allen Support, but of course, the only thing I can find on Hopkins Allen is that they went out of business in 1916.

So, of course I have a couple questions -

1. Are Damascus, twisted steel and laminated steel the same?
2. What is the relationship between Parker Bros and Hopkins Allen (if any)?

Thanks in advance for the input.

Bill Corn

[Dean Romig]

The three are not the same and there are several more, and different, types of composite barrels Parker Bros. used on the early hammer guns.
The most resilient however, are constructed of Laminated Steel.

But FAR More Important than the type of composite barrels they are is the minimum wall thickness all around the barrel tube and for its full length. Further, the chamber length should not have been altered because this can compromise the wall thickness at the forward end of the chamber.

After all of these things pass muster by a qualified gunsmith well practiced in classic sxs guns, you still need to use LOW PRESSURE ammo of the correct length… which would be 2 1/2 inches.

Good Luck and enjoy your Parker!!





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[Kevin McCormack]

M-E-R-I-D-E-N, not "Meridien" CT

[Dave Noreen]

Twist, Stub Twist, Laminated and Damascus are all the same in that they are hammer-welded alternating ribbands of iron and steel hammer-welded together as they are wound around a mandril. They differ in the percentages of iron, steel, old horseshoe nails, etc. and how the ribbands are twisted as they are wound around the mandril.

[Drew Hause]

Probably more than you want to know here
https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home

Parker briefly fabricated Laminated Steel tubes in house. Scroll to the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1__gn3XKjLX_4V0LguzoVGBwJRFS6SxsWGzUwHq93neo/edit?tab=t.0

With a full size high resolution close up of about 8" of barrel, where the contrast is most apparent, we could confirm the composition of your barrels.

re: safety of using pattern welded barrels see
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit?tab=t.0

Almost all the U.S. makers sourced their "rough forged tubes" from Birmingham (early on) and primarily from Belgium, but there was no relationship between H&A in Norwich, Connecticut and Parker Bros.
BTW: H&A stated that their "Stubbs Twist" barrels were "Guaranteed for use with Nitro Powder"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Barrel-Evaluations/Mythology/i-Cf982cH/0/Md2HFHkskVKK9GwSr62bmx9pb9G4ZZ8kc2M99Hw2z/S/M%26R%2027-S.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Barrel-Evaluations/Mythology/i-Cf982cH/A)

[BillCorn]

Yes, my typo error

M-E-R-I-D-E-N, not "Meridien" CT

[BillCorn]

Great information. Thanks


Probably more than you want to know here
https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home

Parker briefly fabricated Laminated Steel tubes in house. Scroll to the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1__gn3XKjLX_4V0LguzoVGBwJRFS6SxsWGzUwHq93neo/edit?tab=t.0

With a full size high resolution close up of about 8" of barrel, where the contrast is most apparent, we could confirm the composition of your barrels.

re: safety of using pattern welded barrels see
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit?tab=t.0

Almost all the U.S. makers sourced their "rough forged tubes" from Birmingham (early on) and primarily from Belgium, but there was no relationship between H&A in Norwich, Connecticut and Parker Bros.
BTW: H&A stated that their "Stubbs Twist" barrels were "Guaranteed for use with Nitro Powder"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Barrel-Evaluations/Mythology/i-Cf982cH/0/Md2HFHkskVKK9GwSr62bmx9pb9G4ZZ8kc2M99Hw2z/S/M%26R%2027-S.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Barrel-Evaluations/Mythology/i-Cf982cH/A)

[Dean Romig]

Here is a set of Parker-made Laminated Steel barrels where the marriage between two segments is clearly visible. Whem Parker Brothers made their own barrels they were made in roughly 15”-16” segments and joined together in a hammer-welding process.


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[Garry L Gordon]

Sometimes I’m mesmerized by the beauty of these barrels and the thought of the crafting of them.

[Jay Oliver]

The Parker made laminated steel, like Dean mentioned are the strongest composite steel barrels Parker offered and were usually on higher grade guns. The early back actions have the same type of laminated steel used on the later grade 1 laminated guns, and were not made by Parker Bros. to the best of my knowledge. Just some info there...

You could shoot black powder shells in this back action as well. That may be the quickest way to try it out. I would use a square 2 1/2 dram, 1oz shot load.

I shot Back action #286 at the Southern with smokeless RST Flacon Ultra Lights that were 3/4 oz at 1125fps. It shot very well and I am looking forward to having more fun with it.

See if you can get the wall thickness measured for peace of mind. Looking forward to hearing a range report...

[Drew Hause]

Previous threads regarding Parker Laminated Steel barrels

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20330

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5520

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=7342

[Dean Romig]

Jay, I too used to think the Parker made Laminated Steel barrels were used predominantly on the higher grades - and I believe I posted words to that effect some years ago - but after studying the Serialization book covering the years 1877 - 1881, the years during which Parker was manufacturing and using these barrels, on guns graded “L” I discovered the vast majority of guns with Laminated barrels were Grade L2. There were only a couple Grade L1 guns and not many grade L3 and higher.





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[Arthur Shaffer]

I have made the same list, but a complicating issue is that there are instances where we have found higher grade guns with Parker made laminate barrels that are marked on the rib and listed in the serialization book as Damascus guns. I believe that Parker at the time was very proud of the barrels and often used them interchangeably with normal Damascus when building guns. I think there were more barrels produced than just the guns ordered and marked Laminate.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I also think it interesting that guns #286 and #287 show up in the same post.

[Dean Romig]

I have made the same list, but a complicating issue is that there are instances where we have found higher grade guns with Parker made laminate barrels that are marked on the rib and listed in the serialization book as Damascus guns. I believe that Parker at the time was very proud of the barrels and often used them interchangeably with normal Damascus when building guns. I think there were more barrels produced than just the guns ordered and marked Laminate.


Art, on all of the guns that received Parker-made Laminated Steel barrel they were marked as such on the top rib but the legend on the top rib gave no indication that the barrel tubes were made in-house. The identification mark that indicated such was the P with the ‘broken foot’ stamped on the forward area of the right barrel flat where the steel type is normally found.

Parker Bros. knew what kind of barrel steel they were putting on any particular gun - no mistake there.
The confusion stems from the person or persons recording the features of the guns.
We often see in our research letters that these guns that received Parker-made Laminated Steel barrels that they were recorded as “Damascus” and this (to us) is wrong… but unfortunately, we can’t change history.
And Chuck includes in his letters exactly what the factory recorded in the stock books and order books.





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[BillCorn]

I thought I would share photos of the barrel markings. First, is the labeling on the rib designating it ‘Laminated Steel’. Second, on the under side are what I believe to be proof marks for Birmingham.

[Dave Noreen]

Those tubes were proofed at the Birmingham Proof House, so not Parker Bros. made Laminated tubes, but tubes bought from a Birmingham supplier.

[BillCorn]

Those tubes were proofed at the Birmingham Proof House, so not Parker Bros. made Laminated tubes, but tubes bought from a Birmingham supplier.
What does that mean for the strength of them?

[Drew Hause]

That would be an earlier form of English Laminated Steel than that tested in the 1891 Birmingham Proof House trial, but there is no reason to believe the strength would be less than other pattern welded tubes ie. about 55,000 psi
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit?tab=t.0

A reminder
Tensile strength is only a part of the equation for estimating bursting pressure. If the barrel is made of Twist with a 50,000 psi tensile strength, that does NOT mean that it will withstand a 10,000 psi load by a factor of 5.

Barlow's formula P=2 S t / D
P=Bursting pressure in psi.
S=Tensile strength of material in tube wall.
t=Wall thickness in inches.
D=Outside diameter in inches.

Barlow's refers to a pipe capped at both ends with a static pressure (a pressure cylinder). Shotgun barrels are not designed to be pressure vessels as one end is open and the pressure rises and falls quickly.

It took about 30,000 psi for Sherman Bell to burst a Parker Vulcan Steel and a Parker D3 barrel

[Mike Koneski]

With sufficient wall thickness in our pattern welded guns, we shoot standard target loads at clays and game. At The Southern I shot my grade 2 top-lever 12g Damascus gun in multiple events and used 1 oz and 1 1/8 oz shells at 1200 FPS and less. No issues. This gun has 2 5/8" chambers.

I only have one gun with "short" chambers that were made for 2 9/16" shells and that's a 16g with pattern barrels.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Art, on all of the guns that received Parker-made Laminated Steel barrel they were marked as such on the top rib but the legend on the top rib gave no indication that the barrel tubes were made in-house. The identification mark that indicated such was the P with the ‘broken foot’ stamped on the forward area of the right barrel flat where the steel type is normally found.

Parker Bros. knew what kind of barrel steel they were putting on any particular gun - no mistake there.
The confusion stems from the person or persons recording the features of the guns.
We often see in our research letters that these guns that received Parker-made Laminated Steel barrels that they were recorded as “Damascus” and this (to us) is wrong… but unfortunately, we can’t change history.
And Chuck includes in his letters exactly what the factory recorded in the stock books and order books.





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Dean

I agree totally with the barrel comment. I have three higher grade guns and they have Parker laminate barrel properly marked on the flats. They are all 1878 or later. I just re-read the section of the TPS on Grades. These three guns were later than the period when "Quality" and "Dollar Grade" were a real issue. All three are marked Laminate on the rib (I didn't say the ribs were marked as Damascus). All three action flats are marked D2 or D3, meaning the actions were intended to be used on Damascus guns of either G or D grade. The serialization book lists the guns as the same designation. If the gun had been intended to be sold as a Lam3, my reading of the system indicates it should have been marked L3. The research letters indicate that the guns were sold with Laminate barrels and were of the appropriate grade.

Here is where the unknown raises it's head. After a study of a couple of years and noting a dozen or more guns where this is the case, I have come to the opinion that this is not a mistake at the factory. Yes, there are obviously mistakes in the records, but with only 200-300 of these barrels likely made, this would be an instance of mistakes made in a significant percentage of the total run of barrels. I have a hard time believing that. The orders would have to state "Give me a Damascus grade 3 gun with Parker Laminate barrels" and then it would likely be noted in the research letter.

There is much existing evidence that Parker made a big push for these barrels. They advertised them and their reps put out statements about the fact. They had invested significant company capital. Based on the total info and records available, I believe Parker intended them to be a product equal to the high priced Damascus grades, and used them as an alternative form of Damascus while they were making them. I have seen and watched guns for sale as high as D5 grade guns with Parker lam barrels. A member on this board purchased one I was watching, I was informed. Your original belief that the bulk of them were used on higher grade guns may be correct, they just were not used on high Lam grade guns. They in fact were quite often used on high grade Damascus guns and sold as such, with the Laminate barrels only being noted in the production records.

We can quote the system for marking all we want (and I just reviewed it) and tell ourselves that there were mistakes, but you have to keep in mind the money they had just spent on it, the pride they took in doing it, and the fact that they had to recognize their folly within a year of starting and judge their actions based on that. It had to be a very short time from startup until management recognized that they were not going to be able to make their own barrels at any appreciable rate or acceptable cost, and pulled the plug on the whole thing before the specs could be revised.

Yes, the guns as sold did not meet their marking standards at the time, but the unanswerable question is whether the factory operators made a lot of mistakes or whether the actual practice deviated from the specs because the barrel issue did not last long enough to revise their specs. My personal opinion is that the latter is true.

There are a lot of issues in the Parker world similar to this. The 11 vs 12 gauge issue is similar. Very few 11 ga guns are shown in the Serialization book, but every year there are several 11 ga guns reported, based on barrel measurements and chamber dimensions. These generally always occur in early guns when the standard 12 ga used 11 ga tubes. This is discussed at length in TPS and even quotes the exact date and entry in the record book when the 12 gauge was standardized to the current size and notes that the 9 vs 10 ga issue was about a month later. There were a number of people working together on this book for years. It is hard to imagine they all made a mistake, but now no one can find the record and we are still at an impass on the 11 ga issue.

The bottom line is that there are records missing and like any company I am sure Parker did things internally at the direction of management that were never documented externally, or were lost to history.

[Breck Gorman]

It would be good to see a photo of the barrel flats and the barrel steel mark. It is likely an “L”. Definitely English Laminate from the figure.

[Dean Romig]

I agree Breck and the crown over BP would seem to support that.





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[BillCorn]

OK - I have an opportunity at another Parker. Please give me your thoughts on this barrel. It says 'Laminated Steel' but I think I see hints of twisting. Otherwise, the gun is in good shape and remembering that I always intend to shoot the guns I buy, even if it is only low pressure black powder.

Thanks

BC

[BillCorn]

OK - I have an opportunity at another Parker. Please give me your thoughts on this barrel. It says 'Laminated Steel' but I think I see hints of twisting. Otherwise, the gun is in good shape and remembering that I always intend to shoot the guns I buy, even if it is only low pressure black powder.

Thanks

BC

[Drew Hause]

Are you sure that is a Parker Bros. Bill? The barrels are Twist and the 'Laminated Steel' script in the banner is typical of Belgian guns.
Do you have an image of the barrel flats?

[BillCorn]

Here is another pic showing 'Parker' and in the lower part of the lock it shows 'Belgium'. I don;t have a pic of the flats.

[Drew Hause]

It's not a Parker Bros.

This is a Parker marked Laminated Steel.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-tNx7BHv/0/M4f2XChr6wzVXWjSnD7GzTv6hw9NhCxQH5qRx4shm/L/IMG_0788-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-tNx7BHv/A)

[BillCorn]

Interesting - it is being sold as a 1872 Parker Brothers 12 ga.

[Dean H Hanson]

Bill, feel free to share your knowledge and let the prospective seller aware of a bit of false advertising.....

[Dean Romig]

Bill, trust Drew - That is Not a Parker Brothers gun made in Meriden, Connecticut USA, regardless of how it is being sold.





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[BillCorn]

Thanks, guys!