TSS Shot

[Stephen Hodges]

Question, is shooting TSS Shot safe out of my Steel Shot Special? Thanks for your opinion, Steve

[Greg Baehman]

Here's what AI has to say regarding shooting TSS shot out of a Parker Reproduction Steel Shot Special:

It is generally not recommended to shoot TSS (Tungsten Super Shot) in a Parker Reproduction Steel Shot Special without careful consideration and potentially consulting a gunsmith. Here's a breakdown of why:
Understanding Your Shotgun:
* Parker Reproduction Steel Shot Special: This shotgun was specifically designed and built to safely handle steel shot. This means it likely has features like:
* Chrome-lined barrels: To resist the abrasion of steel shot.
* Stronger steel in the barrel construction: To handle the potentially higher pressures associated with some steel loads (though modern steel loads are generally lower pressure than older lead loads).
* Appropriate choke constrictions: Typically Improved Cylinder (IC) and Modified (M) as tighter chokes can cause problems with steel shot.
Understanding TSS Shot:
* High Density: TSS is significantly denser than lead or steel. This allows for the use of smaller shot sizes with equivalent or even superior energy and penetration.
* Hardness: TSS is also very hard and does not deform like lead.
Why TSS in a Steel Shot Special Might Be Problematic:
* Choke Concerns: While your shotgun is designed for steel, TSS behaves differently due to its density and hardness. It patterns very tightly, and it's been noted that TSS may not respond to chokes in the same way lead or even steel does. Using chokes tighter than recommended for steel (which your gun likely has - IC/M) could potentially lead to:
* Overly tight patterns: This might not be ideal for your intended use.
* Potential for barrel damage: Although less likely than with steel in a non-steel-rated gun, the non-deforming nature of TSS and the pressures generated could, in extreme cases or with very tight chokes, cause issues over time.
* Pressure: While TSS itself isn't inherently high-pressure, it's crucial to use commercially manufactured TSS loads from reputable manufacturers. Reloading TSS without precise data and understanding could lead to dangerous pressure levels. Your Parker Reproduction, while built for steel, is still a classic design, and exceeding safe pressure limits should always be avoided.
* Barrel Wear (Less Likely): The chrome-lined barrels should resist wear from the shot itself. However, the long-term effects of the harder TSS on the barrel material compared to steel are not as well-documented for these older reproductions.
Recommendations:
* Consult a Reputable Gunsmith: This is the most important step. A gunsmith experienced with classic doubles and modern ammunition will be able to assess your specific Parker Reproduction and provide the safest advice. They can check the chokes and the overall condition of the barrels.
* Check Manufacturer Recommendations: If you know the specific manufacturer and date of your Parker Reproduction Steel Shot Special, try to find any documentation or recommendations regarding alternative shot types.
* Start with Light Loads and Open Chokes (If You Proceed): If a gunsmith deems it potentially safe, start with commercially manufactured TSS loads with lower velocities and stick to the most open choke your shotgun has (likely Improved Cylinder). Pattern the gun carefully to see how the TSS performs.
* Avoid Tight Chokes: Never use Full or Extra Full chokes with TSS in your Parker Reproduction.
In conclusion, while your Parker Reproduction Steel Shot Special is designed for steel, the unique properties of TSS warrant caution. It is highly recommended that you consult a knowledgeable gunsmith before using TSS shot in your shotgun to ensure safety and optimal performance.

[Stephen Hodges]

Thanks Greg, answers my question. I would not risk it.

[Mike Koneski]

In a steel shot rated repro, I’d shoot it. 1) Open chokes. 2) Hunting turkey. TSS patterns very tightly so it’s not good for clays or wing shooting. Maybe on ducks or geese coming in to decoys, but pass shooting would be very difficult. No margin for error.

Unless you have reloading data from a TSS vendor, don’t reload it, buy factory shells. Factory TSS are very expensive. Just sayin’.

I buy my TSS from Hal Abbott. If you buy shot from him he will give you any recipe you need but you’ll be treating those recipes as a NDA.

[Paul Ehlers]

Interesting that AI is basically parroting what we've talked about here and on other gun forms over the years.

The one thing it didn't mention is that it's commonly thought that all Parker repro barrels are chrome lined and the only thing that sets a steel shot special apart from other 12ga repro's is they were a special-order run made for a particular dealer with more open chokes and stampings indicting that they are steel shot specials.

As far a shooting TSS shot through a SSS or any repro for that matter--I personally wouldn't do it and take the risk. I have other guns more suited for using TSS if I felt the need to use it.

[Greg Baehman]

Paul, I agree with almost everything you wrote in the above post. It is true that all Repros have chrome-lined barrels. However, and what has been reported here in this sub-forum by an authoritative source, using empirical data, is that the SSSs have chrome-lining through the choke area, whereas the regular run of Repros do not.

I am open to correction, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

So my old 870 , is cool with TSS, but a SSS is not . Has metallurgy declined?The SSS is chrome steel, and has more open chokes, if large steel shot that doesnt compress is ok thru it why would the small shot size 9s be a problem. I could understand if you were shooting 4s or larger.
Are the Mossberg .410s a higher quality barrel that tungsten is ok thru them?
Puzzling to me, not saying anybody is wrong, but will have to look more into this.
Anyway, will be out tomorrow turkey opener shooting TSS9s thru my 870 full choke

[Mike Koneski]

I shoot TSS through my Remington turkey pump gun with turkey full choke. Same with the Savage .410 single shot, full choke. Modern chokes, modern barrel steel. No issues. I wouldn’t shoot it out of my tight choked Parkers. 1 1/2 oz of TSS through an old choke at .035-.046 might be an issue. Same for steel out of those tight chokes. Something possibly might give and it won’t be TSS or steel.

[Daniel Carter]

Many have mentioned using TSS in single barrel guns with no problems. Our vintage doubles have barrels attached to a top and bottom rib using solder which stands up to the loads of the day for many years with no damage.How will this stand up to a type of shot unknown in the time they were made?
I would be concerned about the ribs coming loose. Do the currently made O/U that are made for steel use soft solder to connect the ribs? I would just use a modern single barrel gun or stay with lead and get them close as we have always done.

[Stephen Hodges]

I would like to thank everyone who chimed in on my question. I was thinking of using the TSS shot this turkey season. I thought it would be cool to shoot a turkey with my Parker Reproduction with it but I think with all the reasons given I will not use TSS in my gun. Thanks again, Steve

[Jerry Harlow]

I would call some of the small manufacturers of TSS loads and check on the wadding. Usually the wads are so thick there is never any contact between the shot and the bore. Number 9s in TSS (what I use) inside a thick wad cannot hurt anything, and they will load you lighter loads. There really is no need for 1 3/4 ounces of TSS 9s in a 3" or even 1 1/2 ounce in a 2 3/4" 12 gauge. You may find that they have 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 ounce TSS loads available. I loaded 1 1/4 ounce of TSS and shot it through a vintage Parker and Ithaca NID and also 1 ounce in 20 gauge and shot it through a Sterlingworth and a Trojan. No damage due to the shot being so small. double wadded, and the load is completely enclosed and actually far down inside the wadding. One ounce loads of TSS contain 362 pellets, and have the energy of 5s. That's why people are killing turkeys at 40 yards wit a .410 and 15/16 ounce.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Jerry, I agree with you. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be shot thru a SSS with its more open chokes

[Daryl Corona]

Steve,
I know this a bit off topic but forget the high tech payloads and work up a good lead load. Millions of birds have been harvested the good old way....with lead. Enjoy it while you can. Good luck and just stay still. :)

[Mike Koneski]

Steve,
I know this a bit off topic but forget the high tech payloads and work up a good lead load. Millions of birds have been harvested the good old way....with lead. Enjoy it while you can. Good luck and just stay still. :)

That’s true, but I can easily one shot kill a bird hanging up at 80 yards with #8 TSS. Can’t do that with lead #5. It’s the confidence knowing my pattern will jelly-head a bird at that distance that causes me to use TSS.

[Daryl Corona]

That’s true, but I can easily one shot kill a bird hanging up at 80 yards with #8 TSS. Can’t do that with lead #5. It’s the confidence knowing my pattern will jelly-head a bird at that distance that causes me to use TSS.

I can appreciate that and what ever works for you and your gun is fair game. I've always enjoyed the close encounters of the feathered kind. I love decoying birds in as close as possible, be they waterfowl or turkeys. Besides, where I hunt a clear 35yd shot is a long way for a strutting Tom.

[Paul Ehlers]

Paul, I agree with almost everything you wrote in the above post. It is true that all Repros have chrome-lined barrels. However, and what has been reported here in this sub-forum by an authoritative source, using empirical data, is that the SSSs have chrome-lining through the choke area, whereas the regular run of Repros do not.

I am open to correction, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I've been around the industrial chroming game some with cylinder lining in diesel engines, my mechanical instincts tell me that it doesn't make sense that you can exclude the choke area while chroming the other 90% of the bore. The only way I see this possible is for the chokes to be cut after the chroming process was done. Why would they cut the chokes before the chroming process on the SSS and not on the rest of the Repro barrels as they went down the production line? Just my curious mind telling me something isn't passing the sniff test here.

I'm still of the thought that all Parker repro's were ran through the same production processes at the factory and the SSS were for the most part just a marketing tool for the dealer that special ordered them for their shop.

An item I try to keep in mind is that when the SSS were made steel shot was just immerging on the scene for waterfowl hunting and there was very little knowledge about it at the time and a dealer having a special run of guns made & marketed as steel shot specials was a great sales hook. This worked so well that we still revere them to this day. Now, here we are having a discussion about a new non-tox shot hitting the market and the circle starts again--Is it safe to shoot it in my gun.

If repro's were still in production, we could have a special run of TSS specials made. Ten bucks says a bunch of them would be sold:shock:

[Greg Baehman]

I've been around the industrial chroming game some with cylinder lining in diesel engines, my mechanical instincts tell me that it doesn't make sense that you can exclude the choke area while chroming the other 90% of the bore. The only way I see this possible is for the chokes to be cut after the chroming process was done. Why would they cut the chokes before the chroming process on the SSS and not on the rest of the Repro barrels as they went down the production line? Just my curious mind telling me something isn't passing the sniff test here.

I'm still of the thought that all Parker repro's were ran through the same production processes at the factory and the SSS were for the most part just a marketing tool for the dealer that special ordered them for their shop.

An item I try to keep in mind is that when the SSS were made steel shot was just immerging on the scene for waterfowl hunting and there was very little knowledge about it at the time and a dealer having a special run of guns made & marketed as steel shot specials was a great sales hook. This worked so well that we still revere them to this day. Now, here we are having a discussion about a new non-tox shot hitting the market and the circle starts again--Is it safe to shoot it in my gun.

If repro's were still in production, we could have a special run of TSS specials made. Ten bucks says a bunch of them would be sold:shock:
Page 4 of the below linked thread brought forth information by a couple of individuals more knowledgable regarding industrial chrome lining and more intimately involved with the development of the SSS than myself.
https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22914&highlight=chrome

[Mike Koneski]

I can appreciate that and what ever works for you and your gun is fair game. I've always enjoyed the close encounters of the feathered kind. I love decoying birds in as close as possible, be they waterfowl or turkeys. Besides, where I hunt a clear 35yd shot is a long way for a strutting Tom.

You hunting among the phragmites?? :rotf:

[Daryl Corona]

You hunting among the phragmites?? :rotf:

Actually I am. Edges of a swamp/wetlands bordered by mutifloral rose (cat briars) and shiny holly bushes. The only clearing is a fire trail about 5 yds wide. You'd better be ready.

[Jerry Harlow]

I just look at TSS this way. It is an insurance policy for when my bad vision, excitement, and worn out brain says 30 yards and it is actually 40, and he won't come any closer or starts to walk away. In open oak woods I see no use in having a forty yard gun with the extra full turkey choke and trying to get him to 10 or fifteen yards to miss him completely with a pattern the size of a golf ball. Been there and done that many times. They still haunt me decades later.

[Paul Ehlers]

Page 4 of the below linked thread brought forth information by a couple of individuals more knowledgable regarding industrial chrome lining and more intimately involved with the development of the SSS than myself.
https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22914&highlight=chrome

I fully respect what our fellow member Mr. Allen has to say about the production of the SSS. I just wish we had some actual technical production data to give some definitive proof of differences between standard repro's and the SSS's.

My problem is I have a skeptical mind and am constantly questioning many of the things we see on the internet & elsewhere anymore. My phrase for this is it's the internet form of urban Myth & Ledgen. There's a ton of it on all the gun forms on a wide range of subjects & some of the information on the Parker Repro's falls into this bucket.

In the big picture of things, it's great that we have the special run of Steel Shot Specials and I'm really glad we have them.

[Greg Baehman]

I fully respect what our fellow member Mr. Allen has to say about the production of the SSS. I just wish we had some actual technical production data to give some definitive proof of differences between standard repro's and the SSS's.

My problem is I have a skeptical mind and am constantly questioning many of the things we see on the internet & elsewhere anymore. My phrase for this is it's the internet form of urban Myth & Ledgen. There's a ton of it on all the gun forms on a wide range of subjects & some of the information on the Parker Repro's falls into this bucket.

In the big picture of things, it's great that we have the special run of Steel Shot Specials and I'm really glad we have them.
Well, how about bringing some of that Parker Repro Urban Myth & Legend information you talk about to the Parker Reproduction "Production Chart" thread? We all might further our knowledge . . .

[Paul Ehlers]

This Urban myth and Ledgen stuff extends way beyond Parker repro's.

There's a whole bunch of it all over the internet shotgun discussion sites where people start out giving opinions which then morph into excepted fact. This discussion could be one instance of this, I have my take on the SSS's and others have a different take. Now because of this conversation, there's a good possibility that when someone asks an AI question about SSS's the algorithm searches might add it to the AI response.

I apologize if I've ruffled any feathers here, but I still question some of the excepted information available about the SSS's being that much different from standard production repro's other than the choke constrictions being conducive to shooting steel shot through them.

Once again, I'll go back to, I wish we had some definitive hard production specification data from either Winchester, the Skeuse records or otherwise for settling this.

[Greg Baehman]

****snip**** I wish we had some definitive hard production specification data from either Winchester, the Skeuse records or otherwise for settling this.
I wholeheartedly agree, Paul. If, and that's big IF, records do survive beyond the grade of lumber and where the originally-built Repros were shipped to, you would have thought they would have surfaced by now -- more than one third of a century has passed since the last Parker Reproduction rolled off the assembly line -- but they haven't. So with that, it's up to us to provide our collective knowledge in an effort to make it happen for those coming after us. Who else will do it?

[John Allen]

The Steel Shot Special can handle the tungsten shot. Less than .020" choke will allow steel or tungsten to pass through the choke without stress. I have shot many loads of both through my #26 gun with no damage or change in dimensions. For that matter, I have shot steel loads through original Parkers with open chokes with no problems. .020" choke seems to be the key factor. The more choke over that the more likely you are to stress the barrel.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Totally agree with you on that John. Especially with small tungsten like size 7 to 9.
I ve killed 40+ turkeys with lead, only a half dozen with tungsten, but it kills better than anything I have tried.