Unusual Engraving, and Markings

[edgarspencer]

I immediately noticed and unusual dog engraving on a recent purchase. The gun is a grade three 20ga.
The setter, on the right side appears to be stepping off a rock, and is heading downhill. The setter an all my other guns, grade 3 and higher, is pefectly horizontal. One exception is on a grade five, where one dog is horizontal, and the dog behind is heading downhill.

The other thing I found is a bit of a mystery. There is a tiny font ampersand, followed by two dots, on the left barrel flat, just forward of James Geary's mark.
The gun was purchased new in 1915, and in the possession of the original owner when he died, in 1960. It was retained by his family until I purchased it.
There is no evidence that it was ever refinished, or otherwise worked on. All screws are polarized, with perfect slots. The barrel bluing is about 75-80%, and, in my opinion, original. It is possible the stock may have had finish applied, but the checkering is quite clearly original also. My suspicion is, it is the mark of a gunsmith. Has anyone ever observed this mark?

[Kevin McCormack]

"POLARIZED"???

[Dean Romig]

Edgar, we’ve seen that “ampersand” stamp before but we don’t understand it’s meaning.

That last picture of the “setter” done during the tenure of Frederick Anschutz as chief engraver and may even have been engraved by Anschutz himself. In TPS his dogs engravings are describes as sometimes “decidedly male”.





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[edgarspencer]

Edgar, we’ve seen that “ampersand” stamp before but we don’t understand it’s meaning..
Please provide me with pictures. I do not recall ever seeing it before.

That last picture of the “setter” done during the tenure of Frederick Anschutz as chief engraver and may even have been engraved by Anschutz himself. In TPS his dogs engravings are describes as sometimes “decidedly male”..

Who are these "We" you speak of so often. Are you in some Mensa society. I never hear any of them speak up.
The last picture has nothing to do with my comment re the dog decidedly walking off a rock, nor was in made during Fred's tenure. It predates him by 15 years.

[edgarspencer]

"POLARIZED"???

A term used by machinists and other obsessive-compulsive individuals who insist on a particular orientation. Or maybe they're magnetized.

[Kevin McCormack]

Please provide me with pictures. I do not recall ever seeing it before.



Who are these "We" you speak of so often. Are you in some Mensa society. I never hear any of them speak up.
The last picture has nothing to do with my comment re the dog decidedly walking off a rock, nor was in made during Fred's tenure. It predates him by 15 years.

I don't see so much as an ampersand character as I do that of the Greek letter Omega with crossed ankles or tangled feet as viewed upside down. The two dots also escape me.

To me there is no mystery as to the setter sliding down a rock or landscape slope; in my experience setters love to swim if properly introduced to water, particularly as puppies in an exercise mode. My great setter "Smoke" would willingly retrieve birds I shot that landed in water, provided he saw them fall. There was no such thing as handling him on a blind retrieve like a Lab. The engraving image probably depicts him entering the water or a steep ravine, while the other dog eyes his vectors for a more level land retrieve.

[Kevin McCormack]

A term used by machinists and other obsessive-compulsive individuals who insist on a particular orientation. Or maybe they're magnetized.

Thanks Edgar - I was confused as to where to ground the test light while contacting the screw heads to determine polarity. Maybe the top lever or better the trigger guard?

[Dean Romig]

Please provide me with pictures. I do not recall ever seeing it before.



Who are these "We" you speak of so often. Are you in some Mensa society. I never hear any of them speak up.
The last picture has nothing to do with my comment re the dog decidedly walking off a rock, nor was in made during Fred's tenure. It predates him by 15 years.

Well whyinell did you post the pic if you didn’t expect comments.

And Edgar, I don’t believe I have saved a pic of the “ampersand” stamp expecting I would someday need to show it to prove “we’ve” seen it before. Nobody ever asks you to prove some of the things you expect us to take as gospel.

Why are you always so contentious Edgar. It really doesn’t become you.





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[Dean Romig]

Edgar, this from eleven years ago…


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[edgarspencer]

Well whyinell did you post the pic if you didn’t expect comments.

And Edgar, I don’t believe I have saved a pic of the “ampersand” stamp expecting I would someday need to show it to prove “we’ve” seen it before. Nobody ever asks you to prove some of the things you expect us to take as gospel.

Why are you always so contentious Edgar. It really doesn’t become you.

I posted the 'horizontal' setter picture to add clarity to my observation of the downhill setter. And to wind you up like a cheap watch.

I must agree, nobody brings out the ire in me the way you do.

So, who are the We guys?

edit: So the next question is who applied the "&" ? do you suppose it originated in Meriden, or possibly, by a gunsmith who worked on both guns? It has to be a rare mark. Check with your group, and get back to me. Please don't take another eleven years though.

[Dean Romig]

On the whole, without naming names, the entire PGCA membership.






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[Garry L Gordon]

I feel like I've seen that front end lower dog on something of mine before, and I'll check to see (and if I can discern a "rock" in the engraving).

Also, if it's okay to ask -- that last photo of an engraved dog: when was that made? I would swear it is from the era Dean suggests -- the 1920s. I hope I'm not getting us off the trail, but inquiring minds want to know (and so do I:)).

[Dean Romig]

I feel like I've seen that front end lower dog on something of mine before, and I'll check to see (and if I can discern a "rock" in the engraving).

Also, if it's okay to ask -- that last photo of an engraved dog: when was that made? I would swear it is from the era Dean suggests -- the 1920s. I hope I'm not getting us off the trail, but inquiring minds want to know (and so do I:)).


Frederick Anschutz died in 1930 and we see none of those dogs engraved later than that year. I’m sure some were still “in the works” at the time of his death and they may have order dates a bit later but still within 1930-31, I would think.





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[Garry L Gordon]

Frederick Anschutz died in 1930 and we see none of those dogs engraved later than that year. I’m sure some were still “in the works” at the time of his death and they may have order dates a bit later but still within 1930-31, I would think.





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Thanks, Dean.

So, wouldn't this style dog fit within the 1920s timeframe, as it matches all of my guns from that time (that have dogs:))?

So, Edgar, when was this engraving done?

[Dean Romig]

It absolutely would Garry.-
Anschutz, tenure as the Parker chief engraver was from 1911-1930.





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[edgarspencer]

The gun shown in the last photo was engraved by Henry Gough, in 1897. It is a 16ga DH.

[Dean Romig]

The gun shown in the last photo was engraved by Henry Gough, in 1897. It is a 16ga DH.


Here we go again Edgar.... I must strongly disagree with that statement. Look again at the picture then look at the gun's serial number. That is an Anschutz engraved "setter".
I don't need to see the serial number to know what I'm looking at.

Best Always,
Dean





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[Garry L Gordon]

Here we go again Edgar.... I must strongly disagree with that statement. Look again at the picture then look at the gun's serial number. That is an Anschutz engraved "setter".
I don't need to see the serial number to know what I'm looking at.

Best Always,
Dean





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I'm with Dean on this. I've never seen a gun as early as that with that style setter...and have seen plenty in the 1920s with the strongly contoured, simplistic drawing like the one in that third photo. Check the serial number again. Perhaps you have confused it with another of your guns(?). I certainly can be wrong, and I'm an expert in absolutely nothing.

[edgarspencer]

I'm with Dean on this. Perhaps you have confused it with another of your guns(?). I certainly can be wrong, and I'm an expert in absolutely nothing.

The two of you are bent on convincing me I should be in a home.
I have 6 grade 3 guns and I could have grabbed one gun, then when I went to check when it was made, grabbed another. I will check when I get home.

[Garry L Gordon]

You are a good and gracious man to indulge us, Edgar.

[edgarspencer]

OK, I'm home (actually got home 10 minutes ago, but wanted to give Dean enough time to get out all his party decorations and put on a clean shirt for the photographers)

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown: Despite the demanding of his Coronation and Jeweled Sceptor prematurely, I Concede Dean's astounding knowledge of Fred Anschutz Dogs:duck::duck:

Gary, my error was just as you described, in grabbing the gun I thought I photographed last night, but one next to it.

OK Dean, Let the festivities begin.

[Garry L Gordon]

Thanks for checking, Edgar. I’ll sleep better tonight :)

[Dave Noreen]

From all the photos I've saved, I see the sort of ampersand symbol appearing very regularly once the J.G. in oval stamp of Jim Geary begins appearing in about the 162xxx range. I see the ampersand symbol pretty regularly into the 180xxx range.

130644

130645

130646

130647

Here is one in the 174xxx range that also has the two dots.

130648

[William Woods]

I wish I had the intellect to understand what Mr. Dean and Mr. Edgar were saying but I find their interaction entertaining. I would like to see the two of them together sometime just to listen to them.

[Daniel Carter]

I wish I had the intellect to understand what Mr. Dean and Mr. Edgar were saying but I find their interaction entertaining. I would like to see the two of them together sometime just to listen to them.

I have and it's as you would expect.

[edgarspencer]

Be careful what you wish for, William. I went to the reunion concert in Central Park, for Simon & Garfunkel, and they don't much like each other either. I got hit off the head by a flying beer can, and a girl next to me threw up on my shoes.

[edgarspencer]

From all the photos I've saved, I see the sort of ampersand symbol appearing very regularly once the J.G. in oval stamp of Jim Geary begins appearing in about the 162xxx range. I see the ampersand symbol pretty regularly into the 180xxx range.

Dave, Thanks for taking the time to pull all those together. It's more than likely I have had other guns with the '&' on them, and just never noticed it before, perhaps, in part due to the tiny font. I may have bought and sold a dozen or more Parkers over the years, and now can only wonder if any of them were also so marked. I consciously shy away from the 180xxx range for the lack of factory records but recall a BHE, 184xxx if memory serves, which a friend and fellow member has. I'll ask him to check. Your post, now, has me leaning towards Meriden as the source, rather than the remote chance an independent gunsmith used the mark.

edit: Dave, I just looked at four guns between 151xxx and 159xxx, which bear the "&" mark, adjacent to Geary's marks; two 20ga Damascus 151xxx, both with two dots; a 28ga 153,xxx; and a 28ga 159,xxx. I guess I'm not surprised that in more than 60 years of owning Parkers, I was not more observant.

[Dean Romig]

Despite how we may sound in our forum interactions Edgar and I are great friends and have the highest respect for each other. Edgar is a brilliant man.





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[edgarspencer]

Despite how we may sound in our forum interactions Edgar and I are great friends and have the highest respect for each other. Edgar is a brilliant man.

:shock:How high?

[Dave Noreen]

I did some more looking and all the barrel flats where I can see the area down into the low 149xxx range have the J.G. in oval and &. Serial 148762 has W.K in the oval and the & --

130659

The highest serial number I've recorded with the & is 180703. The J.G. in an oval continues into the 219xxx range as the PARKER BROS. OVERLOAD PROVED stamp came into use.

The symbol really looks like a "Concern for POWs" or "Breast Cancer Awareness" ribbon and a small c.

[edgarspencer]

I did some more looking and all the barrel flats where I can see the area down into the low 149xxx range have the J.G. in oval and &. Serial 148762 has W.K in the oval and the & --

The symbol really looks like a "Concern for POWs" or "Breast Cancer Awareness" ribbon and a small c.

This now opens up a whole new possibility of meaning, as it no longer appears related solely to Jim Geary.

[Dean Romig]

I did some more looking and all the barrel flats where I can see the area down into the low 149xxx range have the J.G. in oval and &. Serial 148762 has W.K in the oval and the & --

130659

The highest serial number I've recorded with the & is 180703. The J.G. in an oval continues into the 219xxx range as the PARKER BROS. OVERLOAD PROVED stamp came into use.

The symbol really looks like a "Concern for POWs" or "Breast Cancer Awareness" ribbon and a small c.


Here’s a thought…. Charles Parker died in 1902 - possibly a remembrance or honor ribbon for Charles…?





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[Kevin McCormack]

Dave wrote:

"The symbol really looks like a "Concern for POWs" or "Breast Cancer Awareness" ribbon and a small c.[" - Exactly what came to mind when I first saw them.

[edgarspencer]

As WW1 didn't start until mid 1914, was in concern for the dozen Spanish American war POWs?

[John Knobelsdorf II]

12 gauge from 1915 with similar characteristics.

[edgarspencer]

I've been noticing most of the ampersands are missing the bottom. Broken stamp likely. My earliest, 151,xxx is whole.
John, Is that gun close to my DHE, 171,5xx ?

[John Knobelsdorf II]

Somewhat close, sort of.

[Craig Larter]

An 1891 CH 12 #1 frame with a down hill dog.

[edgarspencer]

John, That isn't, by chance, the gun you bought from Reggie? As I recall, you purchased a gun I sold him; a DHE 12ga, 1 1/2 frame 30". Yet another I have wondered what I was thinking.

[Kevin McCormack]

I had a beautiful DHE #171751 dated at 1917 that had nearly identical engraving but I have no closeups of the barrel flat markings to compare.

[Garry L Gordon]

Be careful what you wish for, William. I went to the reunion concert in Central Park, for Simon & Garfunkel, and they don't much like each other either. I got hit off the head by a flying beer can, and a girl next to me threw up on my shoes.

:rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf:

Now that there was funny!

Edgar, don’t lose that sense of humor.

[Garry L Gordon]

I’ve seen the down hill, but still need to find the rock.

[John Knobelsdorf II]

John, That isn't, by chance, the gun you bought from Reggie? As I recall, you purchased a gun I sold him; a DHE 12ga, 1 1/2 frame 30". Yet another I have wondered what I was thinking.

This is not that one. That one is from 1926.

This is on a size 2 frame (instead of 1 1/2 frame).

It is my college graduation gift from my dad (in 1976).

My dad got it from a collector that lived in Fort Worth, Herman Gilbreath.

[edgarspencer]

This is not that one. That one is from 1926.

This is on a size 2 frame (instead of 1 1/2 frame).

It is my college graduation gift from my dad (in 1976).

My dad got it from a collector that lived in Fort Worth, Herman Gilbreath.

I knew I should have stayed in school while my dad was still alive, but I quit in my senior year to go to work for him. I may or may not have bought myself a Parker when I finally did graduate.

[edgarspencer]

An 1891 CH 12 #1 frame with a down hill dog.

Craig, This is the first time I've ever seen an Armadillo on a Parker.

[Randy G Roberts]

It is my college graduation gift from my dad (in 1976).

My dad got it from a collector that lived in Fort Worth, Herman Gilbreath.

Now that's something to cherish John. What a gun. To each his own but personally I hope you push a little lead down them tubes occasionally.

[Brian Dudley]

And I thought downward dog was just a yoga position.

[Craig Larter]

Craig, This is the first time I've ever seen an Armadillo on a Parker.
:rotf::rotf::rotf: