Shot size - basic question

[Clark McCombe]

New to the shooting sport.
What’s the relative difference between 8, 7 1/2, 7, and 6?
What would be best for sporting clays, trap snd skeet?
Does it make a difference in the gauge of the gun used - 12 ga to .410?

[Brian Dudley]

Smaller size, more pellets. But smaller pellets may not have the breaking power at longer ranges.

Most clays clubs do not allow larger than 7 or 7-1/2 on their courses.

I would think that most people shooting sporting clays and trap are using 7-1/2 or 8. And skeet are using 8 or 9.

6 and larger would be hunting loads.

[CraigThompson]

I used to load #9 for skeet dove and quail , #8 for 16 yard trap skeet doubles at all stations and sporting , I used to load #7 1/2 for handicap trap and rap doubles . Then later in life I ent to #8 for everything but the 410 . Now I’m pretty much all #7 1/2 for clays of any type , pigeon shoots ,quail and dove then #6 for tower shots .

[Clark McCombe]

Thank you…
I have a .410 (not a Parker)��
Was wondering what might be better.
It seems the #8 for my 12 and 16 are fine.
Didn’t know if there was a fine distinction between 7 1/2 and 8 that good shooters recommended.
Somewhere I saw the quote
“Just shoot the damn thing.”
I think that’s what I’ll do. :)

[Andrew Sacco]

I never shoot smaller than 7.5 in frigid weather as I've seen a great many clays in single digit temps with pock marks and holes but no breaks. Otherwise it's 8 for everything else including skeet.

[Bill Murphy]

I would prefer #8 in the .410 for everything but skeet where I would use #9. Anything bigger than #9 does not flow well in my .410 loader. I don't know what to do about that. I have filed, sanded, and waxed the shot tube, to no avail.

[Clark McCombe]

good to know, thanks.
Topic for discussion:
Does practicing with a .410 make you a better shooter when you use a 12?

[Bill Murphy]

Tens of thousands of rounds with any size shotgun. Knowing what to practice makes something of those rounds. Otherwise, they mean nothing. Many high volume shooters have never learned how to shoot.

[Dave Noreen]

This may help. It is over 120 years old, but shot sizes haven't change.

130589

[Clark McCombe]

cool !
Thank you!

[john pulis]

Gun fit, gun fit, gun fit.

[Clark McCombe]

Looking forward to a warmer day where we can work on that!

[Stan Hillis]

I've killed lots of small game birds with a .410; doves, quail, etc. I favor size 8 or 8 1/2 for the little bores. The energy will be fine with those sizes at maximum .410 hunting ranges. You don't need to be shooting at any game bird with a .410 much past 30 yds. anyway, because density gets so sparse that you may not get a sufficient number of hits on the bird to kill it cleanly. My favorite load in my .410s for hunting doves and quail is 3/4 oz. of true nickel plated 8s or 8.5s.

In larger gauges I often go to 7 1/2s on later season, tougher birds.

[Clark McCombe]

Thanks Stan,
I’ve wondered why .410 isn’t more popular.

[Garry L Gordon]

Clark, Stan is a .410 wizard on his beloved dove, so heed his advice. As he mentioned, I also see the need to increase shot size on our wild Bobwhites later in the season as they tend to flush further and seem to carry more shot. We start the season with 8s in the right barrel and 7.5s in the left and move to 7.5/7 later in the season. This is for 20 and 28 gauge (I’m not a good enough shot to not wound too many birds with a .410). For pheasants I like 6s and tighter chokes and a 12 gauge— they are tough and will “carry lots of shot” as the guys out here like to say. All of this is what I use in my vintage guns, so 3/4 oz. in 28 gauge, 7/8 oz in 20/16, and 1 - 1 1/8 oz in 12.

[Stan Hillis]

Thanks Stan,
I’ve wondered why .410 isn’t more popular.

They require me to shoot with a different technique than a bigger, heavier gun, Clark. Most .410 doubles are so light that I just cannot use my normal mounting and shooting technique, at least not on doves. Quail is about the same for me with any gun.

I began my dove shooting "career" 65 years go with a J C Higgins .410, Tenite stocked, double. At 8 years of age. About 10-12 years go I revisited the .410 double scene and started opening the season with them every year. It has been hugely fun but required me to relearn how to mount and establish lead on a dove with the little guns.

Here's three of my favorites, all 30" barreled. From left to right, FAIR Verona O/U ...... Dickinson Estate ...... FAIR Iside Tartaruga Gold.

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/74138_1024x768.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/74138_1024x768/)

[Garry L Gordon]

Like I said, Clark, Stan is the .410 Wizard in my book and caused me to acquire two—a Parker VH and a 1880s H&H hammer gun. I’ve killed dove with the Holland, but the Parker is my dedicated squirrel gun.

A 30” .410 is very tempting.


They require me to shoot with a different technique than a bigger, heavier gun, Clark. Most .410 doubles are so light that I just cannot use my normal mounting and shooting technique, at least not on doves. Quail is about the same for me with any gun.

I began my dove shooting "career" 65 years go with a J C Higgins .410, Tenite stocked, double. At 8 years of age. About 10-12 years go I revisited the .410 double scene and started opening the season with them every year. It has been hugely fun but required me to relearn how to mount and establish lead on a dove with the little guns.

Here's three of my favorites, all 30" barreled. From left to right, FAIR Verona O/U ...... Dickinson Estate ...... FAIR Iside Tartaruga Gold.

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/74138_1024x768.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/74138_1024x768/)

[Mike Koneski]

I’ll primarily use 7 1/2 or 8 on the Clays course. A target showing edge or over 40 yards gets a dose of 7 1/2. The edge/shoulder is the toughest part of the clay. Inside 40 yards and showing belly/dome gets #8. Easiest part of the bird to break. As for .410, I do prefer using 8 1/2 in the .410. I also prefer using 8 1/2 in the 28g. I find 8 1/2 gives a nice balance between the volume of #9 and the higher energy of #8. .410 and 28 targets are normally closer than bigger bore targets. For hunting I’ll use 7 1/2, 6 or 5 in the little guns depending on what bird I’m chasing.

[Clark McCombe]

Absolutely Beautiful Garry,
I began with a .410 single shot Stevens - firing pin broke and I wound up with a little powder in my eye

[Mike Koneski]

Clark, we like the .410 for turkey. Nothing like calling in a big Tom and loading him up with #8 TSS. Makes them dead in a hurry. My grandson was 8 last May and stoned a bearded hen dead at 12 yards with a single shot .410.

[Stan Hillis]

They are no more a "wounder" than larger bores that are misused at ranges too long. A .410 at 40 yards is like a 20 ga. at 65. Both will cripple because pattern density is too low at those ranges. I've proven what distances I can kill cleanly with a .410. That doesn't make me an expert, it just shows that I can limit myself with regards to range.

If you've got field proven experience with .410s I'd love to read about it, Harry.

[Stan Hillis]

Just to put some brackets around what kind of experience it takes to successfully use a .410 in the field here is a pic of my now 22 year old grandson, when he was 9 yrs. old, on the first dove shoot on which he was allowed to use a gun. He took all fairly and humanely.

This bore size is criticized severely as being a handicap for a youngster. Young Jackson Hillis disproved that, in spades. "Rare and desirable" Stoeger Uplander, shortened to fit better. Shooting 1/2 oz. loads, AT APPROPRIATE RANGE! :bowdown:

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/74144_1024x768.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/74144_1024x768/)

[Clark McCombe]

Thinking about this conversation kept me up last night. I've wrestled with this idea of "sport." Critics will say it's not "sport" to kill animals. It isn't sport - it's a skill. A skill that has to be acquired to do properly and humanely.

The question of guns in general can be opened up too. I believe members of this group are reasonable people that can discuss all these issues. We have 2 A to protect and feed our families, and if you will protect us from the government if necessary. Some of us might be better at it than others.

I grew up on our farm with the tough chore of seeing my animals put in the freezer. I became a vegetarian for a while to try and understand what I was doing. Self examination is the key to understand who we are. I understand what it takes to put food on the table. Not many in our country have any idea of where a hamburger or chicken nugget comes from. If I do shoot a quail or pheasant or rabbit, it will be taken home and dressed and cooked.

I have a problem when I see a deer struggling with an arrow stuck out of its side. That sport bothers me. I know people who do it. I may disagree with them. I pray it doesn't happen often.

In the mean time my initial question was about shooting clay pigeons - I have no problem with that. I'll want to learn to become better. I want to have conversations to understand. Our disagreements help us determine who each off us are.
And our self examination will make us better.

[Mike Koneski]

Clark, when using a .410 for clays, there’s not much margin for error. You have to be more spot on with lead and speed. As Stan said in a previous post, long and narrow with not much fringe to the pattern. That’s why I like fixed LM/IM chokes on my .410 Clays guns.

[Bill Murphy]

Bought a new .410 yesterday. Can't wait to sneak it into the gun room to examine it.

[Garry L Gordon]

Clark, if you do some research regarding the history of what we call "sport hunting," you'll find that idea came about as some hunters began to advocate for fair chase guidelines for hunters at a time when market and "pot" hunting was the norm. The "sport" moniker was because some hunters at the time (like Frank Forester and our own Wilbur Parker, Sr.) wanted hunters of the day to view their hunting like a sport in that it would have rules and a code of ethics. So, no ground swatting birds, shooting into flocks or coveys, taking more than you could use, etc. I'll admit I don't like the continued use of the term because it causes folks today to view sport hunting as trivializing the death of animals, making killing seem like a game...which was the furthest notion from the original intent. So, think of hunting as a sport in the sense that it was intended: an activity guided by rules and with an ethos that respects the animals pursued.

I understand your views on the suffering of animals, and as I age as a hunter, I view the killing aspect of hunting in a light much different from that of my youth. In some ways I think that is part of our growth and maturation as a hunter, and, dare I say, a sportsman. I see so much death and carnage on our highways -- the number of road killed animals in my state is astounding, and I seldom hear anyone cry out against that, or suggest doing much about it. Folks still eat meat, and my guess is that we will for the foreseeable future, but like you, some have looked to alternatives. I certainly respect that. I hope there continues to be room for all of us and that holding differing views helps us evolve our ideas and sense of ethics. We'll see.

I appreciate your thoughtful posts.


Thinking about this conversation kept me up last night. I've wrestled with this idea of "sport." Critics will say it's not "sport" to kill animals. It isn't sport - it's a skill. A skill that has to be acquired to do properly and humanely.

The question of guns in general can be opened up too. I believe members of this group are reasonable people that can discuss all these issues. We have 2 A to protect and feed our families, and if you will protect us from the government if necessary. Some of us might be better at it than others.

I grew up on our farm with the tough chore of seeing my animals put in the freezer. I became a vegetarian for a while to try and understand what I was doing. Self examination is the key to understand who we are. I understand what it takes to put food on the table. Not many in our country have any idea of where a hamburger or chicken nugget comes from. If I do shoot a quail or pheasant or rabbit, it will be taken home and dressed and cooked.

I have a problem when I see a deer struggling with an arrow stuck out of its side. That sport bothers me. I know people who do it. I may disagree with them. I pray it doesn't happen often.

In the mean time my initial question was about shooting clay pigeons - I have no problem with that. I'll want to learn to become better. I want to have conversations to understand. Our disagreements help us determine who each off us are.
And our self examination will make us better.

[Mike Koneski]

Could be you’re just a lousy shot.

[CraigThompson]

In my less than stellar life I’ve killed flying feathered birds with everything 8-410 with the exclusion of the 24 and 32 . The 28 and 410 I’ve only tried on dove/quail and they did just fine provided I did my part and took reasonable shots . I have however seen a fellow on here kill more than a few pheasants with a VHE 28 30” . Heck one day this fellow and I shot at a pointed duck with 28’s he with the 30” and me with a 26” , said duck hit the ground dunno if we both hit it or just one of us but the web footed creature didn’t live to fly another day . Another gentleman on here I’ve seen kill quail with a Repro 28 at distances I most likely wouldn’t shoot , not once but numerous times .

[Stan Hillis]

Could be you’re just a lousy shot.

:rotf:

My 9 yr. old grandson would have been happy to show you how, Harry. But alas, he is now grown and starting a family and has not the time.

[henderson Marriott]

Clark's views somewhat reflect my own, at least as to the non- use of more primitive weapons on antlered game.

My own idea of ideal but older weapons on antlered game are original 1886 Winchester
or pre-war Winchester Model 71 rifles. The iron sights affixed to these rifles encourage stalk or still hunting at closer ranges. Hence, much less incidents of wounded game. Calibers like the 33 WCF and 348 WCF have been successfully used on North American species of bear, indicating sufficient cartridge power for clean kills on antlered game.


{The opinons stated are my own from hunting experience, and do not reflect the opinions or experiences of others.}