Arthur Shaffer
12-29-2024, 01:23 PM
I have read the 2018 thread and the 2021 thread on this general subject, The one was a case of "Operator Error" and the 2018thread was finally solved but I couldn't follow the solution and I still am not sure what the real problem was.
I have a gun I bought a while back that occasionally failed to cock one or both barrels and additionally could not remove the barrels without disassembly. I worked on it a little at the time and then set it on the back burner due to other projects I wanted to work on.
A few days ago I decided to tackle it again. It now refused to cock at all. I ended up fixing one issue and ordering the other part I need to replace in order to (in my opinion) fix the second. I thought I would post it here for general information.
I took the stock off the gun after removing the trigger plate group and then reassembled the gun. This let me watch the parts. Still nothing worked.
I next tried cleaning areas that looked like they needed it, even though the insides looked in good order. I did this while removing different pieces and trying. I finely gave up on that approach since nothing obvious was jumping out.
I decided the best approach was start simple and go forward. I tried to think of every part that could be causing the cocking problem. I removed the trigger group and tried cycling the gun. At that point I could hold the gun by the action upside down, put pressure with my thumb on the cocking slide and cycle the gun. It cocked and worked normally. Put the triggers back on and it didn't. I next removed the unhooking slide, cycled without the triggers, and it cocked without the triggers but not with. I removed the triggers and retried. At this point I had to trip the sears manually. Same story, yes open no with trigger plate.
At this point I was really confused. I fooled with it for awhile and noticed that it took a lot of pressure to install the trigger plate assembly. I took out the trip assembly and put the trigger assembly back on. Bingo, it worked both ways.
I removed the spring and pin from the trip assembly and examined everything. The tip of the trip had an almost unnoticeable spot of crud on the tip which I cleaned. I had a hard time getting them out. I took a wooden q-tip stick and dropped in some Slick followed by the end of the stick. I pushed and twisted until I thought the hole was clean. Put it back in and the gun cycled correctly with and without the trigger group.
I was finally moving toward a complete gun. I then installed the unhooking slide and it again worked with and without the trigger group.
The last piece to go back was the unhooking pin and spring. Back to ground zero. Worked without the trigger group but not with it. I removed the pin and spring and it worked both ways. I pulled the pin and spring out then took the same small dowel and tried to clean the hole in the unhooking slide. It felt like it had something in it so filled it with solvent and pecked it on a hard surface. Surprisingly, four broken pieces of the spring fell out. Oddly enough they consisted of coils of 4, 3,2 and 1 respectively. I cleaned everything and reassembled everything with no change. When I again removed the unhooking pin and spring the gun worked perfectly including the ejectors. The only problem was barrel removal but this is no problem if you remove the cocking slide. I had already ordered a replacement cocking hook and a replacement unhooking slide with its pin and spring. When these arrive I am confident that either the pin and spring or all together will complete the work.
I learned a few good lessons here. First, be systemic and don't forget that it is possible to have more than one small problem at the same time. Murphy's law. Random shots in the dark can lead to a very long time to cure a problem. Even approached systematically it took 4 or 5 hours to locate the problem.
Don't discount the time it takes to fix some of these things. I love doing this kind of thing and do it for fun. If you don't trust your abilities and are afraid of making a mess, don't begrudge the gunsmith who spent 1/2 day of his time making a living what he charges.
Two final comments.
One of the things I discovered wrong is often mentioned as a possible reason. I may be wrong but the simple problem of dirt in and on the trip is one I don't recall seeing before. The hooks on the cocking slide grab a very shallow notch on the hammers. A little minor dirt was enough to push the slide up enough to let the hooks jump out of the notches.
The other is my observation that often a possible cause is that the square hole in the cocking hook is jumping over the crank at the front due to wear. I installed the slide so many times that I believe this would be a very rare issue. The connection is so overlapped compared to the fit of the hook that I suspect wear would cause slipping off the hammer notch well before any possible at the front occurred.
I have a gun I bought a while back that occasionally failed to cock one or both barrels and additionally could not remove the barrels without disassembly. I worked on it a little at the time and then set it on the back burner due to other projects I wanted to work on.
A few days ago I decided to tackle it again. It now refused to cock at all. I ended up fixing one issue and ordering the other part I need to replace in order to (in my opinion) fix the second. I thought I would post it here for general information.
I took the stock off the gun after removing the trigger plate group and then reassembled the gun. This let me watch the parts. Still nothing worked.
I next tried cleaning areas that looked like they needed it, even though the insides looked in good order. I did this while removing different pieces and trying. I finely gave up on that approach since nothing obvious was jumping out.
I decided the best approach was start simple and go forward. I tried to think of every part that could be causing the cocking problem. I removed the trigger group and tried cycling the gun. At that point I could hold the gun by the action upside down, put pressure with my thumb on the cocking slide and cycle the gun. It cocked and worked normally. Put the triggers back on and it didn't. I next removed the unhooking slide, cycled without the triggers, and it cocked without the triggers but not with. I removed the triggers and retried. At this point I had to trip the sears manually. Same story, yes open no with trigger plate.
At this point I was really confused. I fooled with it for awhile and noticed that it took a lot of pressure to install the trigger plate assembly. I took out the trip assembly and put the trigger assembly back on. Bingo, it worked both ways.
I removed the spring and pin from the trip assembly and examined everything. The tip of the trip had an almost unnoticeable spot of crud on the tip which I cleaned. I had a hard time getting them out. I took a wooden q-tip stick and dropped in some Slick followed by the end of the stick. I pushed and twisted until I thought the hole was clean. Put it back in and the gun cycled correctly with and without the trigger group.
I was finally moving toward a complete gun. I then installed the unhooking slide and it again worked with and without the trigger group.
The last piece to go back was the unhooking pin and spring. Back to ground zero. Worked without the trigger group but not with it. I removed the pin and spring and it worked both ways. I pulled the pin and spring out then took the same small dowel and tried to clean the hole in the unhooking slide. It felt like it had something in it so filled it with solvent and pecked it on a hard surface. Surprisingly, four broken pieces of the spring fell out. Oddly enough they consisted of coils of 4, 3,2 and 1 respectively. I cleaned everything and reassembled everything with no change. When I again removed the unhooking pin and spring the gun worked perfectly including the ejectors. The only problem was barrel removal but this is no problem if you remove the cocking slide. I had already ordered a replacement cocking hook and a replacement unhooking slide with its pin and spring. When these arrive I am confident that either the pin and spring or all together will complete the work.
I learned a few good lessons here. First, be systemic and don't forget that it is possible to have more than one small problem at the same time. Murphy's law. Random shots in the dark can lead to a very long time to cure a problem. Even approached systematically it took 4 or 5 hours to locate the problem.
Don't discount the time it takes to fix some of these things. I love doing this kind of thing and do it for fun. If you don't trust your abilities and are afraid of making a mess, don't begrudge the gunsmith who spent 1/2 day of his time making a living what he charges.
Two final comments.
One of the things I discovered wrong is often mentioned as a possible reason. I may be wrong but the simple problem of dirt in and on the trip is one I don't recall seeing before. The hooks on the cocking slide grab a very shallow notch on the hammers. A little minor dirt was enough to push the slide up enough to let the hooks jump out of the notches.
The other is my observation that often a possible cause is that the square hole in the cocking hook is jumping over the crank at the front due to wear. I installed the slide so many times that I believe this would be a very rare issue. The connection is so overlapped compared to the fit of the hook that I suspect wear would cause slipping off the hammer notch well before any possible at the front occurred.