Patterning

[Randy G Roberts]

A couple weeks or so back a newly acquired Parker DHE 12 bore arrived. The letter specified as follows: DAC 1 3/8", DAH 2". Special instructions were Silvers rubber butt, medium thick comb, 2" of pitch, no safety, trigger pull 3 pounds, 2 Lyman sights, and full choke. The price was $75 plus $10 for extra long barrels (34").

The gun now has 1 9/16" DAC and 1 3/4" DAH AND now sports a manual safety with a PB slide. The engraving used to disguise the slot is still visible under the slide. PB work, who knows? My concern was the where the darn thing was going to shoot as it felt and looked really high to me. I can see a lot of rib on this one so off to the patterning board we go. I shot it at 34 yards as 40 would have required me to get muddy. Using Fiocchi 1 oz of #8 with both bores at .040 constriction I was both pleased and surprised. Right bore was dead on as pictured with the left shooting the same pattern but shifted to the left about 4". Now if it ever quits raining we can try some clay targets.

[Garry L Gordon]

Does it still have the thicker comb, and if so, how do you like it? I have three Parkers with the medium full comb. I don’t notice any difference except the wrists are thicker, and I do notice that in handling them.

[Rick Roemer]

That pattern would be difficult to fly out of!

Can you let me know what you use for the pattern board? Is it metal and do you repaint it between shots?
Thx

[Randy G Roberts]

Does it still have the thicker comb, and if so, how do you like it? I have three Parkers with the medium full comb. I don’t notice any difference except the wrists are thicker, and I do notice that in handling them.

Yes Garry, it still sports the thicker comb. Wrist would be normal and not thicker. Can't say that I can tell any difference either with the fuller comb

[Randy G Roberts]

Raining, I can ship you some ''SNOW'', we have around 42ins. on the ground.

Harry

No thanks Harry.

[Larry Stauch]

Two things come to mind with that fantastic result. Those chokes are perfect and it really likes those Fiocchi shells. 1 ounce loads in a big heavy gun like that has to be a pleasure to shoot. What diameter was your disc, 30"? Thanks for letting us know about this Randy.

[Larry Stauch]

Oh, and what's the frame on that gun?

[Stan Hillis]

With a gun stocked that high I have never had one to shoot flat. They're always way too high for me, too. I know how surprised you must've been. I cannot explain that, can you? When you're looking down on the rib I have found them to ALWAYS shoot high, sometimes VERY high.

But, first, congratulations. I'd be elated as I know you must be.

[Randy G Roberts]

Two things come to mind with that fantastic result. Those chokes are perfect and it really likes those Fiocchi shells. 1 ounce loads in a big heavy gun like that has to be a pleasure to shoot. What diameter was your disc, 30"? Thanks for letting us know about this Randy.

Yes Larry it's a 30" board and a 2 frame.

[Randy G Roberts]

With a gun stocked that high I have never had one to shoot flat. They're always way too high for me, too. I know how surprised you must've been. I cannot explain that, can you? When you're looking down on the rib I have found them to ALWAYS shoot high, sometimes VERY high.

But, first, congratulations. I'd be elated as I know you must be.


No explanation Stan. I see more rib on this than any other gun I shoot regularly. I shot it 4 times on the board and the results in terms of elevation were exactly the same every time.

[Daryl Corona]

No explanation Stan. I see more rib on this than any other gun I shoot regularly. I shot it 4 times on the board and the results in terms of elevation were exactly the same every time.

Now go shoot some flying thingies. That will tell you where it really shoots.:cool:

[Randy G Roberts]

Now go shoot some flying thingies. That will tell you where it really shoots.:cool:

That's the plan Daryl.

[Stan Hillis]

No explanation Stan. I see more rib on this than any other gun I shoot regularly. I shot it 4 times on the board and the results in terms of elevation were exactly the same every time.

Amazing. Maybe pitch can help explain it?

[Arthur Shaffer]

I think it is just the nature of shotgun shooting. With a rifle, you carefully align the sights and adjust them to coincide to the aiming point. With a shotgun, and focusing on the target, you see the target and the alignment of the barrels to point to where you want the shot to go. I like to shoot a gun with a high stock so that I can see the barrels while focusing on the target. Doing that lets my brain point the barrels at the target point without thinking about it.

If I try to pattern a shotgun and treat it like a rifle, I often miss the center. If I instinctively mount the gun and shoot when I see the gun pointed at the center, I usually hit closer to the intended point. I have seen and read some gun coaches who teach this style of patterning.

Pattern like you shoot.

[Stan Hillis]

I have always been a shotgun "patterner". For decades I went the paper route, but finally built my own grease plate for it, and take pics of the patterns if I want to save them. A big purpose in patterning is to determine if a doublegun is regulated to shoot both barrels to the same point of impact, that being my point of aim. Some do not. All that don't can't be corrected to do so. Some can by the judicious switching of loads. The length of time the payload stays in the barrels is a big determining factor in regulation.

I may have related this story here before but hopefully it's worth repeating. It is a perfect example of the value of patterning with the loads you intend to use in a double. I traded for a 20 Ga. Philly Sterlingworth Ejector to make into my dedicated quail and woodcock gun. It has 28" barrels and was choked tighter than I wanted. I patterned it with 7/8 oz. loads at about 1250 fps and it crossfired terribly, to the tune of 8" laterally with each barrel. That is absolutely not satisfactory to me so I called Dean Harris. We discussed it and he agreed to open the chokes to .006"R and .016"L, lengthen the chambers to 2 3/4", and try to regulate the barrels by his method of honing the inside of the choke area to move the pattern.


He called me some time later with the news that all she wanted was to be fed 1 oz. loads at about 1150 fps. The longer time the payload was in the barrel and the slightly greater recoil with these loads, as compared to the 7/8 oz. loads at 100 fps faster velocity, gave the gun time to move more, laterally, under recoil before the payload exited the barrel. Result was a perfectly regulated gun with one pattern dead atop the other, and both 50/50 on POA.

A shot of my plate after shooting some .410 patterns. I keep a paint roller in a plastic 5 gal. bucket with a few inches of a mixture of white housepaint and motor oil in the bottom of it. After each pattern shot I just roll it, rendering a fresh coat to represent the pattern for the next shot.

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/74021_800x600.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/74021_800x600/)

Edited for clarity

[Rick Roemer]

Thanks for this info. I want to make a plate. I assume steel - how thick? What is your's made of Randy? What is in the center? Stan, you mention a mix of paint and oil - 50/50 mix? What does the oil do? Sorry for the barrage of questions. I have always just used paper, but it gets old having to change all the time. Do you shoot more than once before you roll it?

Thanks everyone for input.

[Stan Hillis]

No problem, Rick.

My plate is 3/8" steel plate. My mix is not 50/50. I use much less oil than paint, not sure of the ratio. The purpose of the oil is to prevent the paint from drying out so quickly. A pattern can be rolled out days later and it's still wet.

I almost always roll it after each pattern. I may occasionally shoot left and right barrel's patterns atop each other to verify that they are regulated, but usually shoot separate patterns and snap a pic of each. I change the number at the top on the yellow card to keep track of those I want to save for future reference.

My other main use for the plate is shooting duck guns for pattern density measurements. I have numerous tightly choked duck guns and enjoy trying to find the tightest patterning loads for them.

[Randy G Roberts]

Thanks for this info. I want to make a plate. I assume steel - how thick? What is your's made of Randy? What is in the center? Stan, you mention a mix of paint and oil - 50/50 mix? What does the oil do? Sorry for the barrage of questions. I have always just used paper, but it gets old having to change all the time. Do you shoot more than once before you roll it?

Thanks everyone for input.

Rick the owner of a local fabricating shop had a piece of scrap 1/8" metal plate that he was able to cut that out of. It's thin but easy to move around and will handle any shot size that I would ever shoot it with. He welded that doughnut aiming/focus point in the middle of it. Looks like it's a 1/4" piece. I also used paper until now and I agree that it is a PITA.

[Bobby Cash]

My name is Bob and I'm a patternaholic (and I hate floating birds)

https://i.imgur.com/b0sXBGf.jpg

[Arthur Shaffer]

Stan

More people should test more loads that differ by ballistics. I think a lot of people generally have a ballistic load they like and if they try varying loads to move the patterns they choose different brands of the same general load. There is no reason to believe the dynamics of a double shotgun are different than a double rifle. When trying to regulate a double rifle, the general method is to vary velocity and bullet weight slowly to do away with crossing point of impact. A load of shot is basically a bullet until it leaves the barrel, and will impart a varying recoil effect on the right vs left barrel depending on the recoil level of the shot. There is an effect also on vertical placement, but it is the same for both barrels and it seems, at least to me, that it is not as pronounced as the horizontal effect. That is due I think to the gun having more resistance to movement vertically due to the nature of how it is held.

[James L. Martin]

Randy my 34" VH has chokes of .030 & .036 with a stock that measures 14 15/16 - 1 9/16 - 1 3/4. Which would normally be too high for me as I see a lot of rib, but like yours it shoots dead on with 50/50 patterns. Mine has no safety

[Stan Hillis]

This is a quandary for me. I would give a "purty" if I could shoot both Randy's and James' guns to see if they shoot flat for me, too. Until now no gun with less than 2 3/8" DAH has ever shot flat for me.

Maybe I need to reread my copy of The Stockfitter's Bible by Rollin Oswald to see if I can figure out what's going on here.

[Frank Srebro]

Nowadays I rarely do paper or plate patterning except to determine efficiency (percentage 30"/40-50-60 yards) when testing loads in special long range shotguns. I shoot a variety of guns regularly and with a new one I'll shoot a shot or two at a floating leaf or such in the water at about 30 yards and while on a platform or hill etc. I see the pattern in the water and can determine the approximate degree of choke and point of impact; rarely do I see much of a horizontal deviation. As the saying goes, "close enough for government work"; you can go nuts trying to be too precise given the poi variation with different loads and even a new lot of the same loading. That's something I learned from the late Kenny Eyster the noted barrelsmith from many days in his shop while tuning competition shotguns. I keep track of the vertical "water" height in a notebook and refer to it when using that shotgun on future outings. Subconscious does the rest.

[Randy G Roberts]

This is a quandary for me. I would give a "purty" if I could shoot both Randy's and James' guns to see if they shoot flat for me, too. Until now no gun with less than 2 3/8" DAH has ever shot flat for me.

Maybe I need to reread my copy of The Stockfitter's Bible by Rollin Oswald to see if I can figure out what's going on here.

To further add to the quandary Stan I shot a round of skeet and wobble trap last evening and this gun was spot on. One could opine or argue that the critical measurement in terms of drop is the DAC right below your eye or about 2" from the nose of the stock which I have not measured on this gun and compared with others. It may be quite similar thus negating some of the high dimensions in the DAH? Possibly? Of course that does not explain why I can see more of the rib on this one vs other guns and still shoot spot on, back to the quandary I suppose.

[Ed Blake]

That’s a handsome gun Randy. Congratulations

[Randy G Roberts]

That’s a handsome gun Randy. Congratulations

Thanks Ed, it's growing on me. Might be a good idea to keep a couple of spreaders handy for those pesky 15 yard bunnies with this one.

[James L. Martin]

Randy, could the reason they shoot flat be the 34" barrels? Do you have other Parker guns with 34" barrels? If so how do they shoot

[Drew Hause]

Randy: does the letter document the original purchaser? If so I could check the Sporting Life archives and see if he was a "Top Gun". Also let me know the DOM so I know where to look.

[Jeff Kuss]

:rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf:

[Randy G Roberts]

Randy, could the reason they shoot flat be the 34" barrels? Do you have other Parker guns with 34" barrels? If so how do they shoot

James my other 34" guns have measurements that fit my preferences more closely and they pattern just fine as one would expect. As far as the 34" barrels having some sort of impact on the patterning results I am probably not qualified to answer that.
BTW I remember your gun from a Rock Mtn. shoot where you had it out as I recall, I think that's where we were :whistle:

[Randy G Roberts]

Randy: does the letter document the original purchaser? If so I could check the Sporting Life archives and see if he was a "Top Gun". Also let me know the DOM so I know where to look.


Much appreciated Drew. The following as copied from the letter:

Parker shotgun, serial number 170918, was ordered by Mr. G.B. Cragg of Dallas, TX on April
12, 1915 and shipped on June 11, 1915. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 92, it was a DH
hammerless, 12-gauge. It featured Titanic steel barrels with a length of 34 inches. The stock
configuration was a pistol grip. The requested specifications were Length of Pull 14 ½”, Drop at Comb
1 3/8”, Drop at Heel 2”, Weight 7 ¾ to 8 pounds. Special instructions were Silvers rubber butt, medium
thick comb, 2” of pitch, no safety, trigger pull 3 pounds, 2 Lyman sights, and full choke. The gun was
consigned.
The price was $75.00 plus $10.00 for extra long barrels, $18,75 for ejectors, $5.00 for Silvers
pad, and $1.00 for Lyman sights

[Drew Hause]

In 1912 he shot in a tournament in Boston
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/27368/rec/11

at the Dallas Trap Club in March
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/26318/rec/13

He represented the U.S. Cartridge Co. in Texas
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/26341/rec/14

and was listed as a Professional in 1913
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/25406/rec/1

His 1914 average is listed under Professionals here
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/56176/rec/2

In 1919 he was living in New Orleans
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SDU19191110.2.120&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------

[Stan Hillis]

Of course that does not explain why I can see more of the rib on this one vs other guns and still shoot spot on, back to the quandary I suppose.

That's the part that's buggin' me. I've never shot a gun that shot flat for me when I was looking down on the rib. But, rules are made to be broken. Now, I'll start second guessing myself when I pass on a nice shotgun stocked high for the traps, or such. Livinlearn. :nono:

If the gun is shooting low when you are looking over the ''Rib'' its just one thing,
''the barrels are bent downward'', that's it!

Pitch plays into it too, Harry.

[Daryl Corona]

For me, pitch plays more of a role in keeping the gun on my shoulder after recoil. I have a PAC Fox 32" gun in which I see way more rib than I would like but it too shoots where I look. Then again I've had guns that when mounted look perfect but I just couldn't be consistent with it. Go figure.:banghead:

[Randy G Roberts]

Perusing through the information as provided by Dr. Drew I see that in the first 12 tournaments in the Interstate Association in 1914 a recognizable Gent by the name of W. R. Crosby was near the top of the leader board with an average of .957 while Mr. Cragg was at the other end of the board with an average of .705, both listed as "Professionals". One thing is for certain he was not shooting the 1915 DHE in question at that point in time. Possibly his lackluster scores lead to the ordering of this 34" gun.

[Drew Hause]

Crosby was certainly one of the turn-of-the-century "Top Guns"; along with Fred Gilbert, J.A.R. Elliot and Rolla Heikes.
He was a representative for Baker Gun & Forging from at least 1897 until 1899, twice winning the “E.C.” Target Championship of America, first with a “$30 Baker Hammerless” B grade, then with a Paragon. He won the “Review Cup” from J.A.R. Elliott in October 1899 killing 98/100 live birds.
In 1900 he won the Sportsmen’s Association Championship Trophy held on the Madison Square Garden roof under the auspices of the Sportsmen's show March 1-17.

After the first GAH at Targets in June he changed to a L.C. Smith and was part of, and High Gun, in the victorious American team in the June 1901 Anglo-American Clay Bird Match.

In 1904, Crosby ordered through Capt. duBray a 20g VH, 30” barrels with F/F chokes, no safety, LOP-14”, DAC-1 3/8”, DAH- 2 1/4”, Pitch-2 3/4’, Weight- 6lb-10oz., Chambers- 2 7/8”, RH trigger- 3 1/2lb, LH trigger- 4lb.
The Parker records include the notation “Send Bill - Compliments of Parker Brothers”. (Courtesy of Daryl Corona)
He continued to compete with his Smith, and the gun may have been for Mrs. Crosby.

At the Philadelphia Eastern Handicap July, 1906 he was using a Parker with 32” barrels.

Lots more here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k2_50HPC18lm2BZmH5SlgYSptcngORnmLTZ5iiW-cpc/edit?tab=t.0

[Daryl Corona]

In 1904, Crosby ordered through Capt. duBray a 20g VH, 30” barrels with F/F chokes, no safety, LOP-14”, DAC-1 3/8”, DAH- 2 1/4”, Pitch-2 3/4’, Weight- 6lb-10oz., Chambers- 2 7/8”, RH trigger- 3 1/2lb, LH trigger- 4lb.
The Parker records include the notation “Send Bill - Compliments of Parker Brothers”. (Courtesy of Daryl Corona)

I still have this gun and if the gun was for Mrs. Crosby she was built like me (:eek:) because if I was ever to have a gun custom made for me I would use these measurements. It's one of those guns I can just pick up break targets with.

Thanks for the reminder Drew.:bowdown:

[Drew Hause]

I haven't found much on Mrs. Crosby, but she did compete. The first Ladies Amateur National Championship was at the 1916 GAH in St. Louis, won by Mrs. D.J. Dalton; Miss Harriett Hammond 2nd
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/22498
Day 2 Ladies Special Event
Mrs L.G. Vogel
Mrs H. Almert
Miss Harriett D. Hammond
Miss L. Meusel
Mrs D.J. Dalton
Mrs. F.A. Johnson
Mrs C. Edmiston
Mrs H.L. Patter
Mrs J.L. Hooper
Mrs W.R. Crosby
Mrs D.B. Foster
Miss E. Wettleaf
Mrs A. Killam

BTW she was one of the wives to accompany (keep an eye on ;) ) her husband to the 1901 Anglo-American match

American Team Departs May 26
The team will consist of the following shots: Capt. Thos. Marshall, R.O. Heikes, W.R. Crosby. C.W. Budd. J.S. Fanning, J.A.R. Elliott, F. Gilbert. F.S. Parmelee, C.M. Powers, Edward Banks, E.H. Tripp, Richard Merrill, and B. Le Roy Woodard.
Others with the team are: Capt. A.W. Money, Emil Werk, D.F. Pride, D. Erhardt, Fred. Elliott, and Frank Harrison.
The ladies of the party are Mrs. Banks, Mrs. Crosby, Mrs. Tripp, Miss Werk and others.

[Daryl Corona]

Wow, a bunch of heavy hitters there. Very cool Drew, thanks.

[Drew Hause]

And most of them shot Parkers
Marshall and Merrill gave up their Cashmores and shot Parkers, as did Le Roy and Heikes who used Remington doubles at the 1901 GAH at Live Birds as Remington professionals.
Parmelee used a Parker at the 1900 GAH, but had previously also been a Remington professional.
Guns used: Capt. Thos. Marshall - Parker, R.O. Heikes - Parker, W.R. Crosby - Smith., C.W. Budd – Parker, J.S. Fanning - Smith, J.A.R. Elliott - Winchester Repeater, Fred. Gilbert – Parker, F.S. Parmelee - Parker, C.M. Powers - Parker, Edward Banks - Winchester Repeater, E.H. Tripp - Parker, Richard Merrill - Parker, and B. Le Roy Woodard - Parker.

It seems likely there was some form of inducement from Parker Bros.

More here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/185YOyQl7GIB9OYLs9Hr3tnMLHqs4rjEdR4j_E9l4HLw/edit?tab=t.0

[Daryl Corona]

And most of them shot Parkers
Marshall and Merrill gave up their Cashmores and shot Parkers, as did Le Roy and Heikes who used Remington doubles at the 1901 GAH at Live Birds as Remington professionals.
Parmelee used a Parker at the 1900 GAH, but had previously also been a Remington professional.
Guns used: Capt. Thos. Marshall - Parker, R.O. Heikes - Parker, W.R. Crosby - Smith., C.W. Budd – Parker, J.S. Fanning - Smith, J.A.R. Elliott - Winchester Repeater, Fred. Gilbert – Parker, F.S. Parmelee - Parker, C.M. Powers - Parker, Edward Banks - Winchester Repeater, E.H. Tripp - Parker, Richard Merrill - Parker, and B. Le Roy Woodard - Parker.

It seems likely there was some form of inducement from Parker Bros.

More here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/185YOyQl7GIB9OYLs9Hr3tnMLHqs4rjEdR4j_E9l4HLw/edit?tab=t.0

It's not much different than today's top shooters. Perazzi, Kreighoff, Beretta just to name a few of the guns that sponsor them only today's shooters are shooting O/U's. To me the biggest difference is the crowds they drew back then, similar to our sporting events today. The promotional incentive hasn't changed.

[Arthur Shaffer]

That's the part that's buggin' me. I've never shot a gun that shot flat for me when I was looking down on the rib. But, rules are made to be broken. Now, I'll start second guessing myself when I pass on a nice shotgun stocked high for the traps, or such. Livinlearn. :nono:



Pitch plays into it too, Harry.

It can happen though. Just out of graduate school in 1972, I traded an Ithaca M51 Trap with a sawed off barrel (cousin's wife's gun that she shot at a dove with a corn stalk in the barrel) for a 1948 Ithaca 16ga field grade with a high grade stock (finishing up guns with available parts). I had been thinking of a classic double and they were cheap at the time. Took it out for its first trip and hit not one thing. I patterned it and both barrels were dead 18" high at 30 yds. This with a gun with 2-3/4" drop. It also had very light barrels. I thought a little and took a towel and wrapped around the center of the barrels. I was at an abandoned concrete plant near my house found a tough looking small tree that hat a vertical narrow V fork in a low limb. I put the barrel with the towel in the fork and bumped it hard on the top of the action. Three tries at this and it patterned perfectly. With light barrels it is easy to bend a set of doubles up or down. This went on to be my lifetime regular dove gun.

I knew nothing of Parkers at the time and hadn't seen pictures of them truing barrels in the factory. What prompted me to try (besides money) was I had a Weatherby gun catalog that showed a picture of a worker truing rifle barrels in their German factory. I figured if you could bend and adjust a rifle barrel in a press with a 4" handwheel crank, bumping a shotgun barrel enough to get a pattern right should be easy.

The same wouldn't work, of course, if you start with a straight barrel. Then the pattern would depend on distance.

[Mike Koneski]

Maybe I need to reread my copy of The Stockfitter's Bible by Rollin Oswald to see if I can figure out what's going on here.

That is an excellent book. Can't begin to tell you how many times I've read it cover to cover.

[Stan Hillis]

I have spent over 45 years bending shotgun barrels for people. It is very easy,but you have to go easy, you don't want to ''Kink'' them. I have seen barrels get bend by guys sitting on them while the gun was in a case on the back seat of a car. It only takes a few degrees, they don't look like a ''Crossbow''. Most of the bending was for slug shooting for deer hunting. The hardest to bend were Ithaca 20in. slug barrels.

Harry


.

I have seen it done too, Harry. But, there's a difference in making a gun shoot to where you want it to by bending a barrel, as opposed to finding out why it's shooting that way in the first place.

Bending a barrel makes one shoot where you want it to at a specific range. Less than that distance and it's off, and more than that distance and it's off in the other direction.

My opinion is that, if possible, it's better to correct the issue on the back end of the gun than on the front end. Read Oswald's book and you might agree. Or not.

[Dan Steingraber]

I haven't found much on Mrs. Crosby, but she did compete. The first Ladies Amateur National Championship was at the 1916 GAH in St. Louis, won by Mrs. D.J. Dalton; Miss Harriett Hammond 2nd
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/22498
Day 2 Ladies Special Event
Mrs L.G. Vogel
Mrs H. Almert
Miss Harriett D. Hammond
Miss L. Meusel
Mrs D.J. Dalton
Mrs. F.A. Johnson
Mrs C. Edmiston
Mrs H.L. Patter
Mrs J.L. Hooper
Mrs W.R. Crosby
Mrs D.B. Foster
Miss E. Wettleaf
Mrs A. Killam

BTW she was one of the wives to accompany (keep an eye on ;) ) her husband to the 1901 Anglo-American match

American Team Departs May 26
The team will consist of the following shots: Capt. Thos. Marshall, R.O. Heikes, W.R. Crosby. C.W. Budd. J.S. Fanning, J.A.R. Elliott, F. Gilbert. F.S. Parmelee, C.M. Powers, Edward Banks, E.H. Tripp, Richard Merrill, and B. Le Roy Woodard.
Others with the team are: Capt. A.W. Money, Emil Werk, D.F. Pride, D. Erhardt, Fred. Elliott, and Frank Harrison.
The ladies of the party are Mrs. Banks, Mrs. Crosby, Mrs. Tripp, Miss Werk and others.

I have a straight grip, C Grade 12 gauge gun that was ordered for Capt A. W. Money by his son. He ordered an identical gun for himself.

[Drew Hause]

Scroll down about 1/2 way here for a bit about "Blue Rock"
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8QkBDo-KIQYk2G8lkE-kHLUybB5NJzBahX_eFKEyuY/edit?tab=t.0

He purchased a CH Parker SN 87238 in 1897 which he returned for his discount purchase price of $75 in Dec. 1898.
He later had two Parker pigeon guns stolen 7-1901; one was SN 90,635

Noel Money was 2nd at the 1st GAH at Live Birds in 1893, and prior to the 1895 GAH ordered a $400 AAH Parker SN 81122

Harold was a Winchester Rep and used a 1897

[Stan Hillis]

''Making a gun shoot where you want it, as opposed to finding out why it's shooting that way in the first place'' The reason they were shooting that ''Way''
in the first place is because they were ''Not Straight'', by bending them I was Straighting them. I put them dead on at 50yds.

Harry

They may have been straight before you bent them. Bending them just made them shoot where you wanted them to. It's very easy to look down the bore of a barrel and tell if it's straight or not, by looking at the light rings that show up in the bore when the barrel is pointed towards a light source. If the series of rings are truly concentric then the barrel is straight. Making it "not straight" may be what you're doing, thereby making it shoot where you want it to.

I'm no stranger to shotgun barrel bending. But, when you've spent a lifetime shooting shotguns as I have and have never seen a gun shoot flat on which you were looking down the rib, it makes you question whether all these guns over all those years were "not straight", as you suggest.

Regardless, I agree that bending a barrel slightly can yield satisfactory results in moving the pattern up or down (in the case of a S X S). We just don't agree about whether or not those barrels were straight to begin with. I say the majority of them were.

[J. Scott Hanes]

Long ago a gunsmith friend showed me a way to accentuate those rings by cutting off a 20 gauge shell and removing the primer. Then inserting it in the muzzle of a 12 gauge like you were 'loading' it toward the breach end. When you point it at a light source the rings are starkly evident.