Newbie looking for Price V grade dbl side by side 16 gauge

[MarcusCarey]

I have an opportunity to pick up a V grade Parker 16 gauge in very good condition. I'm guessing that it hasn't seen much use at all. Ball park if possible Thanks. "Newbie"

[MarcusCarey]

Also, can I shoot Federal game loads #6 shot 2.5gram shells out of it?

[Andrew Sacco]

$0 to $10,000 should cover your non specific question. Seriously you'll be lucky to get a ballpark value without a whole lot more information, and even with that, it's worth what you'll pay and what the market is. VH? VHE? All original? Do you KNOW it's hardly been used or you guessed? These are all important. Barrel length? Types of barrels? I've overpaid AND underpaid for VH 16's both costing me $3,000. The second question nobody will touch.

[Brian Dudley]

There is no way to value the gun based on the little info provided. And even then, value is subjective and you will be hard pressed to get hard opinions on that here.

[MarcusCarey]

Here are some photos to answer some of the questions I didn't know to ask in the original post. To get around advice on loads, let me just ask, what kind of shot shells are those with or familiar with this gun currently using?

Oh, 28" barrels.

[Brian Dudley]

It looks like an honest well used, but not abused late 1920s gun. A great hunter.

[edgarspencer]

I love 28" barrels. Check on the bottom of the back barrel lug, for the frame size. It will either be an 0, or a 1.
I shoot about 200 rounds of 1175 fps, 7/8 oz per week in an 0 frame 16.
In a 1 frame you can step it up to a 1200-1250fps load, but stay with 7/8oz.

[MarcusCarey]

Here are the shells I got to shoot in the gun. Seem appropriate?

[edgarspencer]

Those are stout for an 0 frame. You'll find 7/8 oz will do anything 1 oz will do, with less stress on the gun and you.

[MarcusCarey]

Here's what's on the barrel lug. It has a 16 and a 1 and it has been stamped "overload proved"

[MarcusCarey]

And the shells show 1165 fps on the box with 2.5dram eq in powder

[edgarspencer]

The gun will handle those with no problem, but you’ll know it after a box or two.

[MarcusCarey]

Know it, like in separated barrels and missing fingers, or just recoil bruising? :rotf:

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I have a 1 frame VH 16, routinely shoot those loads when hunting. I shoot 7/8 oz loads from my reloader most of the time however. A 1 frame is a bit heavier than an 0 frame, and manages recoil better. The gun looks to be in decent shape, not excellent, would say 2500 to 3 grand, but I've had mine for a long time.

[MarcusCarey]

Thanks. Plan to use it for our Annual Thanksgiving Morning rabbit hunt. It's a tradition that has been in our family for over half a century.

[Dave Noreen]

The gun was made circa 1928. At that time the "standard" 16-gauge shell in North America was loaded in a 2 9/16-inch case. With Parker Bros. policy of chambering 1/8-inch shorter than the intended shell, it likely left Meriden with 2 7/16-inch chambers. What has happened to those chambers in the intervening 96 years is anyone's guess. Best would be to get them accurately measured as well as the bore, choke and barrel wall thickness by a qualified double gun smith.

My saved 16-gauge history lesson --

16-Gauge History Lesson --

From the late 1890s until after WW-I, the heaviest 16-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered were 2 3/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 22 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite, pushing 1 ounce of shot. Those loads could be had in the "standard" 2 9/16-inch case or any of the longer 2 3/4, 2 7/8 or 3-inch cases. In those times the ammunition companies often didn't put the case length on the label if the shells were the "standard" length, only on the extra length shells.

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In late 1922, Western Cartridge Co. added the 16-gauge to their progressive burning powder, high velocity loads called Super-X, but unlike the 1 1/4 ounce 12-gauge and 1 ounce 20-gauge Super-X loads which were put up in Western's 2 ¾-inch FIELD shells, the 1 1/8 ounce 16-gauge Super-X load was put up in their 2 9/16-inch FIELD shell.

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When the Lubaloy shot Super-X loads were introduced in July 1929, they were put up in Western's high brass RECORD shell, but the 16-gauge still in a 2 9/16-inch length case. The other ammunition companies followed suit, Peters' High Velocity and Remington's Nitro Express 16-gauge loads were put up in 2 9/16 cases.

The 2 ¾-inch 16-gauge shell really began to get some traction when Remington Arms Co., Inc. introduced their Model 11 and "Sportsman" autoloaders in 16-gauge in 1931, chambered for 2 ¾-inch shells. While Remington's regular Nitro Express 16-gauge progressive burning powder load was put up in a 2 9/16-inch hull with a load of 3 drams equiv. pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot --

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for their new 16-gauge autoloaders they introduced the slightly faster Auto-Express with a 3 1/4 drams equiv. charge pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot --

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I'm thin on Winchester ammo catalogues, but for sure by 1934, they were offering a similar 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge load.

The 2 ¾-inch Magnum shells with 1 1/2 ounce in 12-gauge, 1 1/4 ounce in 16-gauge and 1 1/8 ounce in 20-gauge first appear in the December 15, 1954, catalogs of all of the big four ammo brands.

Western Cartridge Co. added a 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge to their Super-X offerings for 1938. From 1938 through 1942 they called this 16-gauge 2 ¾-inch Super-X shell "Magnum", even though it was still a 1 1/8-ounce payload. By Western Cartridge Co.'s March 7, 1946, catalogue the term "Magnum" was gone from this 2 ¾-inch 16-gauge Super-X shell. In Western's January 2, 1947, catalogue, the 2 9/16-inch 16-gauge Super-X shell was gone from both the chilled shot and the Lubaloy offerings, and their only 2 9/16-inch shells being offered were Xpert. This may have been an oversight, as the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell with chilled shot is back in Western Cartridge Co.'s April 8, 1948, catalogue and price list, and the 2 9/16-inch 16-gauge Super-X loads remained until their last appearance on Western Cartridge Co.'s January 2, 1962, catalogue and price lists, where it is "available until stocks depleted." By Western Cartridge Co.’s January 2, 1963, catalogue and price lists the new Mark 5 was introduced and all the 16-gauge Super-X offerings are 2 ¾-inch. By the January 2, 1964, Western Cartridge Co. catalogue and price list the 16-gauge 2 9/16-inch Xpert shell is gone as well.

[MarcusCarey]

Great history lesson. Thank you. FYI I measured the shell. They are 2 1/4 inches long. I measured a 12ga. Also 2 1/4 inches long. The shells I plan to use are a lower powder than hi-brass and chambered fine in the gun. I feel pretty good using them.

[Dave Noreen]

It is not the length of the loaded shell, it is the length of the case after it is fired that matters.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Marcus

The problem with most 16 ga shells and old guns is strength of the wood.

I have always loved the 16 ga and own a large collection of them. A nice 16, as intended for use, will weigh around 6 to 6-1/2 pounds. They are intended as upland guns and are relatively light. The guns are old and the wood may be dried out or have some oil that has seeped in over decades. Completely serviceable but maybe not as strong as original 100 years ago. A constant beating by stout loads of 1 oz (or more) shot may cause a sudden damage to the stock wood. During the 50's and 60's shooters got into a more is better frame of mind and now it is difficult to find loads less than 1 0z in 16 ga. Many companies are making loads of 1-1/8 oz loads. Seems like everyone is trying to make a 16 perform like a 12. As mentioned, I have found that 7/8 oz loads pattern better and recoil much less than heavier loads. They are all I shoot personally. The weight of the shot load is a big factor in recoil and in a light gun the heavier loads are not brutal but not something I care to absorb all day. Do your gun and shoulder a favor and find some 7/8 oz loads to shoot. They are out there, just do a little looking. When you locate a supply, order a flat of 10 boxes and have them delivered.

[Phil Yearout]

I’d ask myself, how many times will I actually shoot the gun on the outing? A few of the loads you mentioned won’t hurt the gun or your shoulder. A round of clays or trap when you’d shoot a whole box+ is an entirely different matter. If you can’t find any shells before you hunt I’d shoot what you have, and keep working on trying to find a supply of lighter loads. JMO.

[Drew Hause]

Very nice Marcus.
Parker Bros. did not lengthen the chambers of 16g guns until the 30s, and typically cut the chambers slightly shorter than the 2 9/16" shells of that era.
There is an easy way to measure chamber length using a 3" x 5" index card, rolled lengthwise, and slid into the chamber. It will partially unroll and expand to the chamber diameter.
Gently advance the card until it stops at the end of the chamber (where the forcing cone constriction starts), use a pencil to mark the card at the breech end of the barrel, and repeat the steps to see if it always comes to same spot.
Then use a ruler to measure the length marked on the card.
The chamber must be clean, and it works best with a new 3” X 5” card.

There is NO modern data regarding the increase in chamber pressure using 2 3/4" 16g (and 20g) shells in short chambers. Certainly recoil may be increased if the shell mouth enters the forcing cone.
Some of today's 16g hulls however do measure shorter than 2 3/4" (after firing).

The hang tag that originally came with your gun specified 2 9/16", 1 oz., 2 1/2 Dr.Eq. shells.

The Parker “Overload Proved” stamp first appeared about 1925, but Parker literature from the 1890s confirmed that barrels were proved in house; in the 30s to a pressure of about 17,500 psi.

re: what loads are safe to use? Bad things happen to guns in 100 years and your gun is likely well past a check and clean by a double gun specialist, who could check the head of the stock for cracks, the bore with a bore scope, and measure the chamber length, end of chamber wall thickness and barrel wall thicknesses.
Scroll down here about 1/3 way for more about short chambers
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit?tab=t.0