The Short Ten - How many shooting one?

[Pete Lester]

Just curious how many of us are actively shooting a Parker short 10 in any grade? I know of Scott Kittredge, Bill Janelle, Bob Fabian, Rick Weik, Mark Ouellette, Charlie Cleveland, Bill Murphy, Frank Cronin and myself. Just curious how popular the moribund 2 7/8" 10ga is among us.

[calvin humburg]

I do.

[Forrest Grilley]

Me too.

[Pete Kappes]

I hunt pheasants with my 2 frame under lever.

[David Dwyer]

add me to the list-on ducks

[Dave Suponski]

I do also.

[George Blair]

Me too! Geese

[Destry L. Hoffard]

*raises hand*

[Angel Cruz]

What do you guys mean by "a short ten"??

[Pete Lester]

16 so far and counting.

Short Ten = 2 7/8" 10ga

[Patrick Lien]

Just curious how many of us are actively shooting a Parker short 10 in any grade? I know of Scott Kittredge, Bill Janelle, Bob Fabian, Rick Weik, Mark Ouellette, Charlie Cleveland, Bill Murphy, Frank Cronin and myself. Just curious how popular the moribund 2 7/8" 10ga is among us.

Count me 2 times.

Pat

[David Long]

Me too Turkeys

[Harry Collins]

I too shoot 2 7/8 ten gauge. Clays, dove, duck, geese, etc. receive equal abuse from the three "big" Parkers in my closet.

Harry

[Fred Preston]

Does 2&5/8ths count? That's the brass case chamber for my lifter 10.

[E Robert Fabian]

I managed to pull it together with my NH 32" after 8 days straight getting up at 3:30 AM.

[Dave Suponski]

Congratulations Bob...You worked hard for that bird....:bowdown:

[Paul Harm]

Mine also is 2 5/8 chambers. Now those are "short" - not the "middle of the road" ones at 2 7/8. Paul

[Dean Romig]

Nice bird Bob. Judging by the worn-off tips of his 'outriggers' e's been trolling for you for a while. I'm glad your paths crossed at last.

[Jay Gardner]

Me.

[Richard Flanders]

I shoot ducks, the notorious outhouse ****cicle, and the occasional phez with my short 10 hammer gun. The second in my lineup, while not the most elusive of the three, most definitely comes the closest to qualifying as 'dangerous game' in that it requires the most precise shot placement to avoid 'messing things up' as it were.....

[Dave Suponski]

:nono:....:biglaugh:

[charlie cleveland]

nice bird.. a fella got to get up early for those turkeys...what load did you use and how far was the shot...lentgh of spurs and how long was the beard... hard to beat a ten ga for turkeys but you know this.... charlie

[Dave Purnell]

One more.

[scott kittredge]

wow, alot of people are shooting the 10, i only thought there would be about 15 or so. nice!! yes, i have a problem too, 3 times :bowdown: to the 10 scott

[Robert Rambler]

I shoot 2 7/8 and 2 5/8 in two hammer guns and an EH.

[Mark Ouellette]

A dozen Parkers, 4 Smiths, and 2 Lefevers in the Short Ten.

One can never have too many big guns!

[Pete Lester]

27 Individuals so far (and that is not counting 2nd and 3rd or more guns each person owns). I did not realize the big 10 was this popular. They are a blast to shoot.

[Mark Ouellette]

Who will be shooting a Short 10 at Hausmans and/or the UP Shoots?

[Bill Murphy]

I'll bring one just for grins. I don't have a crossover Parker ten, missed the one that Jack Puglisi was selling. I have Parker, Sauer, Lefever, Lindner, L.C. Smith, Remington, and I don't know what other short tens. They are the guns that have the most history among American doubles.

[Robert Rambler]

I usually shoot a 12 or 16ga at Hausmann's since most are Grouse shots. But the big 10 might be fun on that long crosser down at the pond, and maybe at the new Tower Field.:cool:

[FRANK HALSEY]

You can count me in. I shoot 3 different 10's in 2 7/8". They are fun to shoot. Frank

[scott kittredge]

I usually shoot a 12 or 16ga at Hausmann's since most are Grouse shots. But the big 10 might be fun on that long crosser down at the pond, and maybe at the new Tower Field.:cool:

i shot my light 2 frame 10 last year at Hausmann and i hit all of the crosser's down at the lower end of the pond,i have never done that before with my 12 ga :)

[Mark Ouellette]

Me too. I shot my "Big Friend Ten", a DH #3 Frame fishtail 10 and had little to no problems on the crossers and the "in your face targets". Once one gets a get pound gun in a swing the rest is almost an automatic reflex!

I do hope to see other Short Tens on the course!

Mark

[John Truitt]

Not trying to hi jack the thread.

Ya know a dedicated 10 ga shoot would be pretty cool.
Some long targets, etc. Lets see what these big girls can do type thing.

I do not have one.

[Harry Collins]

John,

That would be fun with nothing but 10's. One sporting clays course here in Kentucky had a springing teal set at 40 yards that not only went up, but away as well. It was well over 60 yards at its peak. I would shoot it with my open barrel (.037 constriction) and 1 1/4 oz of 7 1/2 shot just as it started to fall. I think I must of held 8' under the clay and it would disappear.

Harry

[Mark Ouellette]

The LC Smith guys sponsored a special 10 gauge shoot at the southern. Does anyone know of the turnout?

In theory, a larger bore will produce better patterns than a smaller bore if ALL else is equal. For me the trick is to shoot a big gun on the course with the smaller guns. The long shots are a little easier with a 10 gauge and if one is still man enough to rapidly shoulder and swing a 9+ pound gun, the close targets are not that hard!

Mark

[Harry Collins]

Mark,

I always have a bag full of SpredR loads for the 10 while at clays or hunting. Most of the time I load 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot and this out of my light #2 frame Lifter with .030 in both barrels will eat up clays.

Harry

[Mark Ouellette]

Harry,

I load 1 1/8 oz #8 shot at 1200 (6000 PSI) with a BPI "X" spreader. Through .030" muzzle constrictions these loads work great. For long shot I shoot the same without the spreaders.

Also, I recently shot an LC Smith Short Ten with .050" constrictions with these loads with very good results.

Mark

[Harry Collins]

WOW. I've never seen a gun choked that tight. Papa had a late Remington Parker 12 gauge that would double on him. He took it to our gunsmith who said it it had 16 gauge constriction. Whether it was intentional or escaped the factory chokers is unknown, however after it was opened up it didn't double.

[Mark Ouellette]

Harry,

I have a dozen Parker 10's and none are choked over .040". If fact most are closer to .030". That Chain Damascus Elsie is tight!

PS: I also have a 1960 Beretta Silverhawk 3.5" ten which has been "opened up" to .040"!

Mark

[Craig Larter]

I shoot two Elsie short tens, an Ideal and a Pigeon.
Why don't you guys shoot your shot tens at the AHFCA Bo Whoop station at Hausmann's ?? I bet someone could even organize a little side bet?? Would be fun and you would be supporting the AHFCA. Craig

[Mark Ouellette]

Craig,

I'd like to see your Pigeon Grade 10. I do hope you'll bring it to Hausmann's!

Oh, good suggestion about shooting a Short Ten in the the Bo Woop challange. Are all the other Short Ten shooters reading this?

Mark

[Bill Murphy]

After a couple of years shooting the Bo Whoop with twelves, this year I may bring an eight along.

[Craig Larter]

Mark: I will bring the Pigeon 10, I am very excited you will be at Hausmann's. WOW Bill an 8 bore would be cool+++. Craig

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/DSC_0008-1.jpg

[scott kittredge]

ok i will bring my 3 frame NH 30 in. choked .038 in both barrels with an 1 1/8 th 7 1/2's. maybe i will hit half if i have any luck :shock: :rotf:, scott

[David Yeatts]

10's Rule!!!!!!!! Did Parker make any other ga.
Dave

[Bill Murphy]

Craig, as long as you are taking pictures, let's see a picture of the Ideal Grade. Too bad the pictures of the Ideal Ten Pair didn't turn out. Some day we'll try again.

[Kurt Densmore]

Count me in......although the only one I have at the moment is being restored...

[Sam Ogle]

I once had (traded) a Damascus Hammer Elsie 10 gauge with 9 pound barrels, choked
55/1000 in both barrels. Yes. I measured and weighed them.
Shot a round of skeet one night with it. Hit about half, but when you hit them, they just disappeared!
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

[Pete Lester]

Up to 30 of us now.

[Bill Murphy]

My Parker tens serve any purpose. They have barrel lengths from 27" to 34", and weights from 7 1/4 pounds to 13 1/2 pounds. To be honest, though, the 13 1/2 pounder is a 3 1/2" chamber gun.

[Bob Brown]

You can count me in.

[Louis Caissie]

GHE-32

[David Hamilton]

I have a #2 frame 10 with 2 5/8" chambers and 28" barrels from the factory in 1875.
Great gun for clays. David

[Leighton Stallones]

Yes here, I cut of the 3 1/2s and load the 2 7/8 for Ducks and Clays

[Jack Kuzepski]

I've got a 10 ga. Parker hammer gun with 30" barrels and the #3 frame. Also have a Lefever E grade hammerless in 10 ga. Both guns have 3" chambers.

Jack Kuzepski

[Don Ay]

EH #2 frame 32" barrels # 56530, always fun to shoot at black ducks with brass hulls an black powder under nice shot

[Craig Larter]

Bill: Here is the Ideal 10ga, bookend to yours. Craig
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/ideal_rt.jpg

[Pete Lester]

36 if I have counted right, no wonder the prices on the 10's is going up :)

[Tom Carter]

Make that an occasional 37. Tom

[Joe Wood]

I shoot three shorties.


DH #3 frame

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/flintchip/Ducks1a-1.jpg

EH #2 frame (earliest reported hammerless)

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/flintchip/P1010013a-1.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/flintchip/P1010011b.jpg

Dollar grade #2 frame hammer top lever with original length 28" tubes. A very "brown" gun. Before daylight the morning this was taken the gun went to the bottom of the shallow playa lake. I grubbed around and found it covered with mud and waterlogged. Shook it out, put a couple shells in and went about my business. Great fun!

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/flintchip/P1010013.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Joe, that grade 2 is fabulous! The Grade 3 looks pretty doggone nice too.

The Grade 3 looks to be Damascus too... is it?

[Joe Wood]

Dean, they're all damascus (I don't trust fluid steel). The DH and EH are in high original condition. The EH was shipped from the factory on December 26, 1888. I did have the barrels on the EH refinished. But the wood and action are factory original.

[David Lien]

Me too: I Have some.

[Patrick Lien]

Me too: I Have some.

Some...... :rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf:

Here is gen3 this evening claiming ownership to my Parker 10 as he tests it out...... Please add 1 more to the Parker 10ga shooter count here in my world.

Patrick

[Mark Ouellette]

Joe,

Your post with the photos was the best single post I've seen in any thread! Those outstanding photos and very clear and concise information tell a wonderful story.

Respectfully,
Mark

[Mark Nielsen]

Count me in. EH (1893). Deadly on clays, doves, and quail.
Mark

[Pete Lester]

Counting 40 of us short ten shooters so far.

[Thomas L. Benson Sr.]

Better add me to the list before the gun sells. Thomas

[Mark Landskov]

My 1890ish Baker hammer gun is a 2-7/8" and my 1879 Parker Grade 2 is 2-5/8". I just tried out Sherman Bell's one ounce loads and they really are fun to shoot!

[Jim Williams]

Count me in - DH 10, Damascus, 1891. It's my constant companion every Spring for quite a few years now.

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww267/darkhorsephoto/04-02-09_0847.jpg

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww267/darkhorsephoto/04-02-09_0845.jpg

[Fred Preston]

This old Parker has 2&5/8" chambers. I have 10 RMC cases for it. The bird was dropped at about 30 yards with an ounce and a half of #4s pushed by an equal measure of FFg.

[Les Van Drie]

Count me in. Have two. Not Parkers-sorry. W C SCOTT hammer gun and a Continental hammer gun. Hunt ducks and geese and turkeys.

[Nathan Ikert]

Count me in. NH 32" barrels

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/rthook21/IMGP0016.jpg

[Les Van Drie]

Is there any place to purchase 2 7/8" hulls for the 10ga?

[calvin humburg]

Les not that Ive found we trim them with some members tool 3/4 dowell with X-acto knife blade stuck in it if you haven't seem it hollar and I'll put pictures on. who ever figured it out is "double barrel smart" ch

[Mark Nielsen]

Les, I've purchased 3 1/2" new Remington 10's (Empties) and had them trimmed to 2 7/8". Ballistic Products, or Precision Reloading (?) carry them. Hope this helps. Mark

[Dean Romig]

2 7/8" was the chamber length for 3" shells.
Remember, Parker Bros. cut the chambers 1/8" shorter than the shells to be used for a better gas seal.

[charlie cleveland]

has any body ever seen a 3 inch 10 ga shell...all ive ever seen is the boxes marked 2 7/8 inch or shorter...then again ive not seen every thing ... charlie

[Mark Ouellette]

The British have a 3" 10 gauge with a maximum working pressure of 3 1/2 tonnes or roughly 10500 PSI.

All but very late and rare 3 1/2" magnum Parkers we either 2 7/8" or 2 5/8" found in early guns. It is always best to measure the chamber length.

[Nathan Ikert]

Les not that Ive found we trim them with some members tool 3/4 dowell with X-acto knife blade stuck in it if you haven't seem it hollar and I'll put pictures on. who ever figured it out is "double barrel smart" ch

Post a picture please.

[calvin humburg]

10184 I'll get some more today thought I had a better one. ch

[Nathan Ikert]

Thank You

[Pete Lester]

2 7/8" was the chamber length for 3" shells.
Remember, Parker Bros. cut the chambers 1/8" shorter than the shells to be used for a better gas seal.

I don't believe that is true for the 10ga. All chambers I have measured have been 2 7/8" and square shoulders.

[scott kittredge]

Post a picture please.

put a sheet rock screw in the center bottom of dowel and you can fine tune the cut by screwing in or out from 2 5/8ths 10 ga to 2 7/8ths 10 ga

[Pete Lester]

put a sheet rock screw in the center bottom of dowel and you can fine tune the cut by screwing in or out from 2 5/8ths 10 ga to 2 7/8ths 10 ga

Scott is right, the screw is must, it allows one to quickly adjust the depth for various hulls, new Federal vs. old Federal, Remmington, Winchester etc. They are all different and the cutter must be adjusted to hit the same desired length with each hull type.

[calvin humburg]

Sorry Nathan I didn't get the screw picture on yesterday I left my camera at my sisters house pictures. I'ts on the top on my list today. ch

[Austin W Hogan]

The photo shows two unfired, paper 10 ga shells, one a UMC, the other a USCC. Both measure slightly less than 2 7/8 inch overall length. I also have some brass ten ga of similar vintage that measure 2 5/8 overall length. The 2 5/8 brass and 2 7/8 paper cases have the same capacity.

Best, Austin

[calvin humburg]

10186

10187Here's a couple of poor pictures but u get the idea.

[Austin W Hogan]

If I were trying to imitated shooting a brand new shell in a brand new Parker, I would set the blade at 2 13/16 inch. That allows +/- 1/16 tolerance.

Best, Austin

[Nathan Ikert]

10186

10187Here's a couple of poor pictures but u get the idea.

Thanks a lot, thats better the the dremal tool.

[calvin humburg]

Thats a good idea Austin. I think I made mine a shade short but I will check. ch

[tom leshinsky]

count me in.

[Larry Stauch]

Count me in with a #3 frame DH with Titanic steel barrels

[Mark Ouellette]

Short Ten DH with Titanic Steel barrels!!!

Show me, show me, show me... please?

Mark

[Bill Murphy]

I rotate my #3 frame 30" 10 gauge Titanic barrels between my NH gun and my BH gun. They fit better on the NH gun, but they're so neat on the BH.

[chris dawe]

I geuss you can count me in as well...it's not a Parker though,and it's on the bench waiting it's turn at restoration,it's a Ithaca N.I.D...she's seen better day's ,but should be up and running by winter.

[charlie cleveland]

the short ten will always be my favorite..in my youth i was in aweof the mighty ten and i guess i still am... i shoot the ten ga quite often it makes a fine gun for every thing from deer turkey quail duck to squirl to every thing in between...if you aint got one you dont know what your missing..... charlie

[scott porter]

I loved my first ten so much I bought another one. I have shot pheasants and clays with the first one and plan to shoot ducks with it in Louisiana this season. I am shooting #96343 short ten top lifter hammer gun. It is a D grade and appears in the Parker story many times since it formerly belonged to one of the authors. It is choked full and extra full with 28" bbls. I just purchased a grade 2 underlifter 10 with great metal but a butt stock broken at the wrist. Jim Kelly is doing a repair to make it a good shooter for clays. It has 30" bbls choked cyl/cyl.

[E Robert Fabian]

1889 32" NH

[scott porter]

Nice gun and gobbler.

[Pete Lester]

Almost half a year since the last post, any new 10 bore owners/shooters since then?

[Leighton Stallones]

JOnes Lever, 10 1/4 lbs,choked full and full,32 inch Damascus 3 bar bbls,
IMG]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0001-001.JPG[/IMG]

[Joe Wood]

At the risk of being excommunicated from this august forum I'll confess to having received a "new" 10 bore yesterday. It's a William Moore of London made no later than '75. Jones underlever, laminated barrels, and forend wedge. Plain gun but in very high original. condition. Weighs 8/14.

Leighton, thats a serious 10 bore you have there.


William Moore, circa ? to 1875
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u237/flintchip/pix402075029.jpg

[charlie cleveland]

nothing like a ten bore...fellows them are some nice tens even if they are forign made .... that long barrel ten would make a fineturkey getter and the short one a good crow gun...i can see the parker is already a turkey getter nice gun and a beautiful long beard... charlie ps just kiddin bout the forign made i also have a old hammer claybrough abd sons 10 ga...

[George M. Purtill]

Almost half a year since the last post, any new 10 bore owners/shooters since then?

I got two.

I have a 10 hammer underlifter #10227- basically unfired- was owned by a Parker EE - a caster. I have never fired it but bought some RSTs from Morris so soo I will.

the second is a damascus PH grade 55861- very early hammerless. i alway thought it was a 12 but never fired it. well 2 weeks ago I dropped a 12 ga shell in it and the chamber swallowed it. we put in a short ten and fired it in a vise. no problem.
Mark Conrad's letter confirms it- it was sent back to the factory and bored out to a 10 guage with 2 and 5/8 chambers. Mark said he has never seen such a thing.
I think it will be my new skeet gun.

[Pete Lester]

I got two.

I have a 10 hammer underlifter #10227- basically unfired- was owned by a Parker EE - a caster. I have never fired it but bought some RSTs from Morris so soo I will.

the second is a damascus PH grade 55861- very early hammerless. i alway thought it was a 12 but never fired it. well 2 weeks ago I dropped a 12 ga shell in it and the chamber swallowed it. we put in a short ten and fired it in a vise. no problem.
Mark Conrad's letter confirms it- it was sent back to the factory and bored out to a 10 guage with 2 and 5/8 chambers. Mark said he has never seen such a thing.
I think it will be my new skeet gun.

That is neat and explains at least one 2 frame (assuming it is a 2 frame) 10ga Grade 1 Twist. Can you scan and post the letter? Have you had the barrels walls measured, be interesting to know the thickness after the factory modification.

[Dean Romig]

Mark Conrad's letter confirms it- it was sent back to the factory and bored out to a 10 guage with 2 and 5/8 chambers. Mark said he has never seen such a thing.


What is the minimum wall thickness on your 12-10 gauge convertible?

[Bruce Day]

Letters at:
1891 CH No. 2 frame, 26" 10ga cyl & cyl

[Don Kaas]

I like shooting these guns. They are easy to reload for and as I have a number of "short tens" I shoot them for waterfowl and the occasional spring gobbler- a 32" #3 frame D2 Parker toplever hammer (that also has a set of 32" Belgian made steel 3 1/2" barrels), a 30" #3 frame PT toplever hammer, a 36" D2 #3 frame GH and a rather nice Lindner Daly A&D action with 30" Damascus barrels and 32" 3" 12g and 32" 3 1/2" 10g fluid steel barrels added by ARMAF the same Liege firm that added the magnum barrels to the D2 Parker. (see below)

[George M. Purtill]

What is the minimum wall thickness on your 12-10 gauge convertible?

I have no way to measure as I have no guages.
i do know that the BBLS were shortened at some time as well.

[Pete Lester]

I have no way to measure as I have no guages.
i do know that the BBLS were shortened at some time as well.

George if you can find a smith who has and knows how to properly use a wall thickness gauge it would be most interesting to know how your gun measures. You have a most unique Parker 10 bore.

[Don Kaas]

For reference on Dean's query, I have a nice set of #2 frame D3 barrels #56815 that I just measured with the following dimensions- 32", 5-13 unstruck weight, 5lb 4 oz currently. WT@ at chamber end (2 7/8") is .120", WT at 12" from breech is .075 and the MWT (in a quick measure) is .060. The bores are both .790. These were with Russ Bickel at the time of his death to be added to my D3 32" #2 frame 20 gauge #186822...got to find another 'smith to do that job. I am going to miss Russ and his Moldmender micro wonder welding for tightening and barrel fitting.

[charlie cleveland]

don you certainly have some very interesting 10 ga s ...i really like the sound of those 36 inch barrels...appreciate the telling about them and the pictures.... charlie

[George M. Purtill]

Pete- here is the letter. I just learned to attach stuff so hopefully it works.

The barrels are now 25 or 26 inches long so 2 or 3 inches were removed. Front sight is nicely in place so it looks like a professional (Parker?) job.
wouldnt some of the barrels HAVE to be removed to go from 12 gauge to 10 gauge?

[Pete Lester]

Pete- here is the letter. I just learned to attach stuff so hopefully it works.

The barrels are now 25 or 26 inches long so 2 or 3 inches were removed. Front sight is nicely in place so it looks like a professional (Parker?) job.
wouldnt some of the barrels HAVE to be removed to go from 12 gauge to 10 gauge?

Thanks for sharing. The gun is a Grade 2, a GH rather than a Grade 1 or PH as stated earlier, (Dam vs. Twist). It would still be interesting to learn of the bore ID and barrel wall thickness after the rechambering to 10ga. Two dollars went a long way back then! I wonder if the gun was severely pitted and rather than overbore a 12 they made it a 10???

[George M. Purtill]

Pete
My bad on the grade. I have called it a PH ever since DelGrego called it a PH 12 in 1991[I can show you the letter!!]. The receiver is so dark with corrosion the engraving is hard to make out.
It is a 2 frame. Damascus markings. Can't see any patterns at all.
Now that i have learned, I will post some photos.

[bill stone]

anyone have a 10g 2 7/8 recipe for black powder or pyrodex rs etc?wad load charge etc?thaks everyone!

[Pete Lester]

anyone have a 10g 2 7/8 recipe for black powder or pyrodex rs etc?wad load charge etc?thaks everyone!

Sherman Bell provided recipes and data for two BP loads in his work. You can find those and a bunch of smokeless loads for the 2 7/8" 10ga here, reference my post of 5/3/12 for the most current spreadsheet. Both BP loads used FFFg and are on page 3 of 3 of the spreadsheet. You probably can't mess up a BP load in the 10 except to undercharge it.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6282

[Frank Cronin]

anyone have a 10g 2 7/8 recipe for black powder or pyrodex rs etc?wad load charge etc?thaks everyone!

More on black powder reloading, go here. http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

From the vintage Sears catalogs:

http://www.tbullock.com/images/BPSG/bpsg-sears.gif
http://www.tbullock.com/images/BPSG/bpsg-sears-1903.gif

[Bill Murphy]

Mr. Stone, I'm not sure you want a BP load. Are you asking for a BP or Pyrodex load because of safety? You can load smokeless without worrying about safety if you get the right information. Would you rather avoid the smoke and mess of black powder? There is information out there. Where are you located?

[edward mccay]

I do!

[Eric Oldham]

I do...

[John Truitt]

You can add me to the list now.

[Pete Lester]

Looks to be 54 of us so far, give or take.

[charlie cleveland]

looks like the old short tens family is growing...the short ten is still my favorite.... charlie

[George M. Purtill]

I just ordered the short kit for my MEC 10 gauge press. Will I be happy with it?
Any suggestions?

[E Robert Fabian]

Yes, it is simple to install and remove, the kit is a plate that elevates station 3 4 and 5.

[Frank Cronin]

Since you will be trimming hulls to 2 7/8", I got the brass Super Crown Crimper from Ballistics Products to put on the crimp starting station on your MEC.

It really helps with unskived hulls for nice tight crimps.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Crown-Crimper-Large-Bore-6-Pt/productinfo/0740006/

[George M. Purtill]

Since you will be trimming hulls to 2 7/8", I got the brass Super Crown Crimper from Ballistics Products to put on the crimp starting station on your MEC.

It really helps with unskived hulls for nice tight crimps.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Crown-Crimper-Large-Bore-6-Pt/productinfo/0740006/

Frank
I actually now have a bunch of RST hulls that i paid dearly for fully loaded. i have no regrets though because the RST loads are excellent in my opinion and I have no trouble handing over my money to such a friendly guy as Morris.
Any ideas for duplicating those RST loads?

[Larry Stauch]

I noticed, as I was reading through all of these great posts, that I failed to post pictures of the Titanic 10 that BFT requested. So here are a few shots of the DH 3 frame No 114677, with fluid steel barrels, made in 1902.

.

[E Robert Fabian]

Frank did you order the six or eight star crimp?

[Frank Cronin]

Frank did you order the six or eight star crimp?

I got the six crimp because that is what RST uses.

Awesome tool -- works great.

[E Robert Fabian]

I ordered one this morning

[bill stone]

I do!

tell me more!!!!!:)

[Bill McPhail]

Rare shooter-obcessed collector. Have 28 American Breechloaders-all "Small" Makers in 10 ga. 2 3 1/4 in chambers-both E Thomas Jr, 1 4in chamber P Mullin.-rest short chambers.
2 are pinfires-Genez,Sneider. 2 are Hammerless-Hasdell, Sneider-the rest are Hammer Guns. 1 driillng Baker
Reguards
Bill McPhail

[charlie cleveland]

bill that 4 inch chambered 10 ga is of great interest to me could you tell us a little more about it... such as weight and lenth of barrels...have you any 4 inch shells for this gun..... charlie

[Bill McPhail]

Charlie, The P Mullin(New York City) is a 10 ga Jones Underlever made on a Birmingham
Proofed Barrelled Action. 32 In 10lb 4 Oz Laminated Steel 4 pin lock with Gold Sheild.
It has a Connon Breech-6 in , 4 in Chamber. I have a 4 in Brass shell but have not found
a 4 in 10 ga shell. Have Mullin 8 Ga with 4 1/4 in chamber. Mullin made unadorned shotguns. 1850's to 90's. Have pictures but do not know how to post on this site.
Can send on e-mail if one is sent-mcphailcherkoee@aol.com
Reguards
Bill

[Paul Harm]

I've found the plastic start crimp works just fine. The short kit is nothing other than a spacer to make up for the shorter shell. A piece of wood would work. Where it's needed is in the final crimp - it makes the shell go up in the final crimp the proper distance so the shell isn't " belled out " at the end. If any of you want load data go to our reloading forum. Short 10 loads are the same for longer shells but adjustments will have to be made with the wad so everything will fit. Many times fiber wads will have to be used and they can be bought from www.circlefly.com . Graig has recommended what size wads to use. For nitro I use 18grs of 700X and the Remington SP-10 wad [ with a 16ga wad inside for filler] ; and with BP, 85grs of 3F, fiber wads, and 1oz of shot. Good luck - Paul

[Grantham Forester]

All these posts are interesting, and I see that the LC Smiths are also mentioned here. No mention of the Fox or Ithaca guns yet, perhaps later. I have used a friend's 10 Stoeger double for geese in past years, but not since steel shot. Perhaps this is why the main topic has been both turkey hunting and then clays. I can only imagine what a tight fisted load of No. 8 chilled shot from a 10 gauge would do to a clay target at close range- decimated!!

A friend has a very old Damascus barrel 10 gauge LC Smith- very ornate pattern to the barrels, engraved and the side plates are "stepped" at the rear apex on both sides. It is a hammerless with double triggers, fine wood- but his gunsmith cautioned against shooting it as it has the first design bottom barrel lug, with squared corners. He said those were prone to stress cracking, even with the black powder loads of that time.

I understand his opinion, as a tool maker, we learn first off that a radius moves stress, but a 90% corner traps it. Could I get a read on this from BFT please??:bigbye:

[Pete Lester]

All these posts are interesting, and I see that the LC Smiths are also mentioned here. No mention of the Fox or Ithaca guns yet, perhaps later. I have used a friend's 10 Stoeger double for geese in past years, but not since steel shot. Perhaps this is why the main topic has been both turkey hunting and then clays. I can only imagine what a tight fisted load of No. 8 chilled shot from a 10 gauge would do to a clay target at close range- decimated!!

A.H. Fox never made a 10ga gun. I think that is too bad they are nice guns. Bismuth and Nice Shot are viable alternatives for waterfowling with a Short Ten.

Frank Cronin hit a clay pigeon at Hausmans early this month with one of his signature 1 1/4 ounce BP loads form his 5 frame hammer 10. I have seen lot of clay pigeons hit over the years, in the 6 digits. I have seen complete dustballs but had never seen this. He shot and the target literally and competely disappeared, POOF. Others on here saw that happen too. Both remarkable and memorable.

[Mark Ouellette]

Grantham,

You asked for my "read" on something you wrote. Are you asking for my opinion of the strength on a Syracuse made LC Smith or perhaps the accuracy of your gunsmith's statement?

Concerning the design of the early Smith, I'd like to see a clear photo of the it has the first design bottom barrel lug, with squared corners.

Perhaps your gunsmith was refering to a square rather than radius of the intersection where the water table meets the standing breach? Yes, some older guns with that design were prone to cracking. I have also seen actions with radious' that cracked in that area. That stated, this may or not be true for this particular LC Smith. A photo of the gun and serial number would be necessary to conduct research into the strength of whatever era gun it was.

Also consider; under what conditions did the actions crack, what percentage of total produced cracked, and is their any evidence rather than old gunsmith's tales to verify this?

Even if that Smith was of a design of which some actions may have cracked under very unknown conditions, I'd load at 6000 psi and shoot the heck out of it!

Mark

[Grantham Forester]

Thank you for the prompt and detailed reply. It is obvious that you know double guns, both from collecting but more to the point, from shooting them, and I surmise, shooting them a great deal. Perhaps I misspoke. His older Smith 10 has the first series square cornered barrel lug design. You are 100% correct about the 90% angle from the standing breech to the water table, or floor of the frame. I have seen a few very early Ithaca hammer guns with twist steel barrels that did not have a machined radius at that point, and you could see, with a 10X magnified, the spider webbed stress cracking on the metal areas.

I can ask him about fotos, but he does not have a computer nor Internet access, so I cannot promise that I could get them posted here. Again, thanks for the prompt response to my inquiry.

[Mark Ouellette]

Grantham,

I am but a nimrod compared to many on this forum. We do all "share" what knowledge that we have. Toward this, thank you for pointing out the obvious!

I thought that perhap you were NOT refering to the barrel lug or as most call it, the recoil lug. The recoil lug protudes under the barrels to "hook" the barrels to the action and absorb recoil.

I forget the technical name of the point where the watertable and standing breach meet. I'm sure the British named it long ago... This 1879 Parker has a square breach intersection. There were some Parkers of this design that cracked.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p307/Chesador/Parker%20U%2010ga/ParkerU_06.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p307/Chesador/Parker%20U%2010ga/ParkerU_02.jpg

This is the earliest existing LC Smith Syracuse made 10 gauge, made appoximately 1886. This gun is a Grade 2.
Please notice that the breach intersection has a radius.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p307/Chesador/LC%20Smith%2010%20Gauges/LC10s_Lot1_13.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p307/Chesador/LC%20Smith%2010%20Gauges/LC10s_Lot1_15.jpg

The Syracuse LC 10 with later Fulton Chain Damascus and Fluid Steel barreled 10 Gauge Grade 2's.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p307/Chesador/LC%20Smith%2010%20Gauges/LC10s_Lot1_16.jpg

Now that I closely observe the bottom of the recoil lugs on these Smiths I see that the Syracuse gun has square front edges. The later Fulton guns are radiused. The Chain Damascus gun from later Fulton production having a slight radius and the even later fluid steel barreled gun having more radius on the recoil lug. Hmmm... "Stress cracks concentrate at sharp discontenuities of geometric shapes."

In theory recoil might cause the recoil lug to "hammer" the action and crack it because of square fronted recoil lugs. There isn't a lot of metal in the action between recess for the recoil lug and the recess for the hinge pin! Now I can see why LC Smith's designs were changed over time! "Researcher" might know about this happening to early LC Smiths.

All that stated, I''d still load for 6000 psi and shoot that LC Smith!!! I won't hesitate to shoot this Syracuse Smith or early Parker.

PS: I have since had Bachelder restore the metal on the Syracuse LC Smith as he did on the Chain Damascus gun. I'll have to shoot some more "group" photos for your guys who appreciate pretty guns, regardless of maker. They are like blonds, brunettes, and readheads. I like all the pretty ones....

Mark

[Grantham Forester]

Yes, of the three photos of the bottom of the receivers, my friend's older 10 hammerless LC Smith has the squared corners, the two guns shown above that look to have the later front corners with a radius. Do you have any load data for the 6000 psi short ten gauge loads you would care to share- with the understanding that if we use your data, you are in no way responsible if something untoward might occur. Always error on the margin side of safety!

[Mark Ouellette]

Grantham,

PGCA Member (hint, hint...) JB Books compiled a comprehensive martix of Short Ten low pressure loading data. I suggest that you send him a PM with your email address included and he'll probably shoot you his list!

I load a lot with 700x, SP-10 with 16 gauge filler wad, 1&1/8 oz shot and roll crimps. I use 1&1/4 oz with 4756 powder. I do not remember the exact charge weights. Better wait for Mr. Books' list...

Mark

[Pete Lester]

Grantham,

PGCA Member (hint, hint...) JB Books compiled a comprehensive martix of Short Ten low pressure loading data. I suggest that you send him a PM with your email address included and he'll probably shoot you his list!

I load a lot with 700x, SP-10 with 16 gauge filler wad, 1&1/8 oz shot and roll crimps. I use 1&1/4 oz with 4756 powder. I do not remember the exact charge weights. Better wait for Mr. Books' list...

Mark

My comprehensive matrix of Short Ten loads contains both high and low pressure, lead, bismuth, a few steel loads, a Nice Shot and even one Tungsten Matrix load. I have referenced all sources of the info.

The spreadsheet is available here on the PGCA forums but the thread is long, people have made posts after it so it is a little bit buried or hard to find.

Here is a link to a quickly put together i.e. crude video I put on YouTube on how to load the Short Ten. Click "Show More" below the video window and you will find a link to the spreadsheet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owXs4Eg__BE

You can also find a link to it on DuckHuntingChat along with a few pictures of some waterfowling success with a Parker NH 10ga.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=118841&sid=4f1fd112c7f420fc2adcfa328457bd50&start=25

[Frank Srebro]

Grantham asked about Ithacas. Here are three "Super 10's" All 32-inch, double trigger, extractor guns.

Left gun is the so-called Star model, Full & Full, and is 99+% original in all respects, possibly unfired. Middle one is Mod & Full, with factory BT on an extractor gun, pretty rare I'm told. Right one is also a Star Model and is Full & Full. All three have measured 2-7/8" chambers. I started loading for Short 10's a few months back, and have to say it's pretty addictive. Also very impressive when you turn a clay into diesel smoke.

I don't want to give my time away but all things considered I'm looking forward to ducking this fall and fox calling over the winter. Sorry for the "wifey" background but it's too sunny and HOT to take pics outdoors.

Frank


http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/IMG_0730.jpg

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/IMG_0732.jpg

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/928FFG2.jpg

[Grantham Forester]

I noticed two of your three Ithacas have recoil pads, one does not. Does a good quality pad as shown on your Ithaca guns really help with recoil, less with the 2.88" 10 shell than with the 3.50" shell I should guess. I am thinking about getting a ten, but would want it compatible with steel shot for Geese, as well as coppered loads for Turkey.

And my compliments on both your photography skills and your wife's touch of color- I see many guns listed for sale on GI website with a dark and gloomy background, the color ensemble you used actually enhances the nice grain of the gunstocks, and the metal finish as well.

I see the engraved star pattern, these are the later New Ithaca Double guns, and not the earlier Flews Ithacas, correct??:bigbye:

[Frank Srebro]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll tell my wife that the pic backdrop went over well. I've never fired the Super 10 that has the HRBP, so I can't comment about the difference in perceived recoil versus a kick pad.

The Super 10's are NID (New Ithaca Double) guns - not the earlier Flues model. And not to be confused with the later heavier Ithaca Magnum guns made for 3-1/2" shells. The Ithaca NID is an excellent design, similar to A H Foxes with a rotary bolt engaging a slot in the top rib extension.

Personally I'd rather hunt with a vintage 10 gauge like the Ithaca, than with a modern 10 gauge SxS that's compatible with steel shot. I'll use bismuth, Nice or similar non-tox for waterfowl, and regular lead shot for turkeys and predators.

A couple of final pics: This one shows the Super-X type shells these Super 10's were adapted to.
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/IMG_9165.jpg


Next one shows an excerpt from Askin's excellent 1929 book, Modern Shotguns and Loads, commenting on his test Super 10 after doing extensive velocity and pattern testing ..... "nearest I ever came to an 80 yard gun".
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/IMG_9115.jpg

[Will Gurton]

Still in the process of acquiring the proper loading equipment, but by all means intend to be among the counted.:bowdown:

1906 Remington 1894 CEO.

16368

Will

[Pete Lester]

Still in the process of acquiring the proper loading equipment, but by all means intend to be among the counted.:bowdown:

1906 Remington 1894 CEO.

16368

Will

If/when you acquire that C grade Remmy 1894 (A C grade 10 would be about as common as hen's teeth) I would like to see more pictures here. Graded Remingtons had some beautiful engraving. Good luck.

[Will Gurton]

JB,

I have the gun. I am in the process of acquiring a loader so that I can afford to shoot it. LOL

Will

[Pete Lester]

JB,

I have the gun. I am in the process of acquiring a loader so that I can afford to shoot it. LOL

Will

Congrats, you are going to enjoying loading for it. I assume you have seen my links on the how to and load data? What a great gun, I should have put on a drool bib before looking :-) Fluid steel barrels to boot and ejectors. Puts my B grade Remmy 10 to shame :crying:

[Craig Larter]

I have had a ball loading and shooting the short tens. Not Parkers but here is picture of my Elsies, 10ga Ideal top, 10ga Quality 3 middle, 10ga Pigeon bottom. The Pigeon is one of 4 10ga Pigeons and the only one with 30" barrels and they are nitro steel.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/10gaLCSmith.jpg

[Grantham Forester]

Just saw a auction bid for a Parker 10- number 3 frame, serial number 58903- 30" Damascus barrels, double triggers, regular buttplate. What is strange, to me anyway, is the letter grade. I have learned that H stands for hammerless, and an E means automatic ejectors, as on my VHE 12. But this older Parker 10 is described as EH grade. How does that compare to the VH, PH, GH, DH etc. line-up? Would this be safe to shoot with the shorter RST low pressure loads?

[Pete Lester]

Just saw a auction bid for a Parker 10- number 3 frame, serial number 58903- 30" Damascus barrels, double triggers, regular buttplate. What is strange, to me anyway, is the letter grade. I have learned that H stands for hammerless, and an E means automatic ejectors, as on my VHE 12. But this older Parker 10 is described as EH grade. How does that compare to the VH, PH, GH, DH etc. line-up? Would this be safe to shoot with the shorter RST low pressure loads?

EH is a 10ga Grade 2 (GH)

NH is a 10ga Grade 1 (PH)

In the late 1800's and early 1900's those grades in 10ga were $5 more than same grade in any other gauge so Parker gave them a separate designation, EH and NH. Sometime in the early 1900's those designations were dropped. Generally safe to shoot but each gun must be evaluated on it's own merits, barrel wall thickness is the critical factor.

[Mark Ouellette]

Grantham,

EH Parkers were Grade 2 made in 10 gauge. Later Parker also made 10 gauge Grade 2's as GH guns. I own several EH guns and two or three GH 10 gauges.

Mark

[Larry Stauch]

I have had a ball loading and shooting the short tens. Not Parkers but here is picture of my Elsies, Ideal top, Quality 3 middle, Pigeon bottom. The Pigeon is one of 4 10ga Pigeons and the only one with 30" barrels and they are nitro steel.


Those are a double WOW!!

Very nice guns.

[Mills Morrison]

I am a recent convert.

[Paul Harm]

Will, I have a BE, CE, and FE grade Remingtons. The CE has Etoile pattern damascus. If ever you need parts call Garland Jackson at 330-669-2138 [ he's in Sterling, Oh ] or Brad Bachelder at 616-459-3636, a master gunmaker in grand Rapids, Mi. Garland makes the most beautiful top lever springs for about $28 delivered . Brad is completely restoreing a 1873 Remington hammer lifter for me right now. He's also done damascus barrels, relayed ribs, and case coloring for me. The 73 needed a new stock and he knows a fellow with a bunch of original Remington stocks - I couldn't believe it. Those Remingtons were proofed for any shell [ for that time period ], so any kind of mild load will work just fine. For my Parker 10's I use 18grs of 700X, a SP-10 wad with 16ga filler cards and 1 or 1 1/8oz of shot. This is in a Remington hull cut to 2 5/8. Good luck.

[Pete Lester]

58 of us here shooting a Short Ten (hard to keep the count accurate in the 2nd most replied to thread on the board). :)

[Mills Morrison]

Nothing like seeing a sporting clay explode like a firecracker when I hit it with my EH 10. :shock:

[scott kittredge]

if i had to keep 1 SxS shot gun(:crying: just 1?) it would be my 2 frame EH at 8 3/4 lbs and .025 choke each barrel this would cover all my type of hunting .:) but i don't have to have just one, so i have all kinds of shotguns :rotf: scott

[Mills Morrison]

Mine is a 2 frame as well.

1 gun . . . perish the thought

[Bill Murphy]

I recently traded a rare lightweight EH 28" bird gun. At under eight pounds, it would be a wonderful one gun arsenal. I would have kept it but my 7 1/2 pound 27" DH 10 does the same job and is even lighter than the EH I traded. Can't remember how many of those 27" DH tens Parker Brothers turned out. What a gun, though.

[Patrick Lien]

58 of us here shooting a Short Ten (hard to keep the count accurate in the 2nd most replied to thread on the board). :)

Pete,
Don't count me again as I already responded. I did however jump ship from hammerless to hammer 10's. I found this old 2 frame E grade 10 with
32" barrels and had to have it.

Pat

[Dean Romig]

That's a pretty one Pat.

[John Truitt]

Can anyone confirm this for me?

I do not have the info in front of me but a friend told me that Sherman Bells reciept for a 1 oz 10 ga load had a higher pressure than his 1 1/8 oz load.
(we are not talking much increase but it seemed odd to me)

[Dave Purnell]

I also shoot a ten and reload Sherman Bells lowest pressure, also BP in Rocky Mtn Cartridge brass.

Dave

[charlie cleveland]

pete the list just keeps getting longer...i believe the light is shining brite on the old ten... charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Our good friends Morris Baker and Jill and Alex Papp are pretty happy too.

[Carl Brandt]

Can anyone confirm this for me?

I do not have the info in front of me but a friend told me that Sherman Bells reciept for a 1 oz 10 ga load had a higher pressure than his 1 1/8 oz load.
(we are not talking much increase but it seemed odd to me)

That's right John. He used Hodgdon Clays and 700X for the one oz loads which is hotter or faster burning than the SR7625 which was used for the 1-1/8 oz loads.

[Bill Murphy]

Good point, Carl. We don't want to use a powder in "the big hole" that would give marginally low pressure even in the smaller 12 gauge hole. 700X is an example of a correct burning rate for one ounce loads in either gauge. 7625 might be OK for one ounce 12 gauge loads, but maybe a little slow for the bigger hole, especially in winter. Some low pressure loads look good on the charts, but don't "sound" too good on a cold winter day. On a related subject, a couple of years ago, I did some freezer testing on the lowest pressure RST loads. I was unable to find an "off sound" or bad performing example. I can only say "How do they do that?

[Alan B. Webber]

I shoot a DH 10, 32"resleeved gun, a DH 10, #6 frame hammerless with 36" Damascus barrels and a DH #6 frame hammer gun with 34" Damascus barrels, all redone by Turnbull. I load full brass shells done off a CNC machine with 116 grains of BP (English proof load) and fill the rest of the shell to the the top with shot.
When you connect It will knock a Canadian Honker backwards and is about the only gun I can consistently break ZZTrap with. And as usual it looks like Gettysburg after a good shoot.
10's are fun.

[Mills Morrison]

Wow! Some nice guns you have.

[Mills Morrison]

I dug up some RST 10 gauge Nice Shot. Actually, a few boxes, so I should be set for a few hunts this season. Hopefully next season, Nice Shot will have their issues worked out.

[Alan B. Webber]

Tx.
They were junk when I got them. It was a treat getting them back on line in great shooting condition.

[Frank Cronin]

I shoot a DH 10, 32"resleeved gun, a DH 10, #6 frame hammerless with 36" Damascus barrels and a DH #6 frame hammer gun with 34" Damascus barrels, all redone by Turnbull. I load full brass shells done off a CNC machine with 116 grains of BP (English proof load) and fill the rest of the shell to the the top with shot.
When you connect It will knock a Canadian Honker backwards and is about the only gun I can consistently break ZZTrap with. And as usual it looks like Gettysburg after a good shoot.
10's are fun.

Quite an impressive group of 10's you have.

Pretty stout loads too. This is about 4 1/4 dram black powder load. 2F or 3F? When you say you fill the rest of the hull with shot, how much we talking here?

Love shooting black myself in the 5 frame hammer with 34" barrels. It's fun and it never gets old.

[Alan B. Webber]

Quite an impressive group of 10's you have.

Pretty stout loads too. This is about 4 1/4 dram black powder load. 2F or 3F? When you say you fill the rest of the hull with shot, how much we talking here?

Love shooting black myself in the 5 frame hammer with 34" barrels. It's fun and it never gets old.

Frank,
It probably ends up about an ounce and a quarter of shot. I loaded 2 f last time.
The barrels are so stout (in your #5 frame also) it would take a lot more pressure to hurt them.
Your right, it never gets old. It's always fun and always a crowd pleaser.

[Bill Murphy]

Alan, tell us more about your sleeved ten.

[Dean Romig]

Yup, Frank knows about pleasing the crowds with his big 10 and BP loads. The ground shakes - the sky grows dark as his clouds obscure the sun - and the earth moves perceptibly.

[Ronald Moore]

Me to Turkeys and Crows.

[Craig Larter]

Amazing this post goes back to May of 2011. I have added two guns to my collection of short tens since-----two No. 3 Elsies. I found a great grade 2 hammerless 10ga Parker at Hausmann's this spring, a friend bought it. What have other short ten shooters have you added since 2011??
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t2/clarter/DSC_0006_zps2e474011.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Will, I have a BE, CE, and FE grade Remingtons. The CE has Etoile pattern damascus. If ever you need parts call Garland Jackson at 330-669-2138 [ he's in Sterling, Oh ] or Brad Bachelder at 616-459-3636, a master gunmaker in grand Rapids, Mi. Garland makes the most beautiful top lever springs for about $28 delivered . Brad is completely restoreing a 1873 Remington hammer lifter for me right now. He's also done damascus barrels, relayed ribs, and case coloring for me. The 73 needed a new stock and he knows a fellow with a bunch of original Remington stocks - I couldn't believe it. Those Remingtons were proofed for any shell [ for that time period ], so any kind of mild load will work just fine. For my Parker 10's I use 18grs of 700X, a SP-10 wad with 16ga filler cards and 1 or 1 1/8oz of shot. This is in a Remington hull cut to 2 5/8. Good luck.

I was just about to post pictures of my entire collection of short tens, but then this "quote" thing came up.

[George Lang]

Just saw this thread, count me in.
Parkers---NH & EH 30" 3 frame, DH 32" 2 frame(with additional 32" 12 ga Vulcan steel bbls). Grade 2 Lifter 32" 3 frame, Grade 2 top lever 32" 3 frame, Grade 3 top lever 32" 4 frame. Nichols/Lefever E Grade 34". Lefever F Grade 32", Remington 1894 Grade 2 32", Remington 1889 Grade 4 12 ga 30"(with additional 10 gauge 30" steel bbls).

[Mark Ouellette]

Okay, I admit it, I acquired a few vintage 10 gauges...
17 Parkers
5 LC Smiths
3 Lefevers
1 Henry Atkin
1 Ithaca 10 Magnum, does this one count if I shoot short ten shells in it?

[Rick Losey]

Okay, I admit it, I acquired a few vintage 10 gauges...
17 Parkers
5 LC Smiths
3 Lefevers
1 Henry Atkin
1 Ithaca 10 Magnum, does this one count if I shoot short ten shells in it?

any ducks or geese left around there?? :rolleyes:

[Mike Franzen]

Just found this thread too. Count me in as a big fan of the short ten. Loading brass shells for ducks and geese right now.

[Dean Romig]

I have only one Parker ten. It is a Grade-3 Lifter with 30" Damascus barrels on a three frame. I bought it at a flea market about two years ago. I use it for turkeys and waterfowl - this season for my first time in decades shooting waterfowl.

[Rick Losey]

so far, one Parker - fishtail 2 frame hammer gun - 32 inch twist tubes, fairly good condition for its age.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg195/setterw/IMGP4731_zpseb68c65d.jpg

and a nice J P Clabrough found as a basket case in a PA antique shop, jammed locks, broken hammers and damascus barrels showing light rust on the outside but bright bores. a little luck and lot of work and it is ready for work again.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg195/setterw/IMGP4827_zpsbffab984.jpg

[Allen Peterson]

Showed this picture in another thread. 32 inch 10s and a 34" eight. missing my lever action 10 ga Winchester.http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/simcgunner/DSC_0210_zps9799b135.jpg (http://s449.photobucket.com/user/simcgunner/media/DSC_0210_zps9799b135.jpg.html)

[KCordell]

I have a few new short 10s. This one, American Arms, I have had for about a year and will be using this year for waterfowl along with my Parker Hammer 10.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn128/code337/7F9DDBC2-3169-427D-AA2B-9DF667FFDE84-4237-000003178018817C.jpg (http://s303.photobucket.com/user/code337/media/7F9DDBC2-3169-427D-AA2B-9DF667FFDE84-4237-000003178018817C.jpg.html)

[Carvel Whaley]

I have 3. All lifter hammer guns. 3 frame 32 in shot doves with it a couple of weeks ago. A 3 frame coach gun (19 in ) barrels with no choke. Patterns buck shot great. Plan to shoot a deer with it this fall. A 2 frame that is still under restoration. Carvel

[Alan B. Webber]

Alan, tell us more about your sleeved ten.

Bill,
I bought it about 25 years ago from a guy in Duluth. #3 frame. I had Kirk Merrington resleeve it and chamber it for 3.5" magnums and choke it full and modified. With the advent of steel I took the chokes out to cylinder and cylinder and it patterns great with Fasteel. I can shoot an ounce and three eights load but the ounce and five eights just kicks too much. But if your on your lead the gun will easily dump a greenhead at 70 yards.
The beauty of the 10's is the short shot string.
It's got a big extender pad on it. The guy before me must have been short.I'm thinking of restocking it with a straight stock and a skeleton butt.
A friend of mine says you can stretch those old actions shooting those big shells but it hasn't happened yet and I don't think it will. Parker's are just too stout for that.
Tx,
Alan

[charlie cleveland]

allan how much does this gun weigh..i have a lc smith hammerless short ten.a lefever hammerless 10 aremington 1894 agrade with fluid still barrels. a d grade parker .a ph parker. 3 lifter parkers in short ten....charlie

[Alan B. Webber]

allan how much does this gun weigh..i have a lc smith hammerless short ten.a lefever hammerless 10 aremington 1894 agrade with fluid still barrels. a d grade parker .a ph parker. 3 lifter parkers in short ten....charlie

Charlie,
8 pounds, 3 oz. not heavy enough for heavy steel loads, at least for me.
You have a nice brace of guns! I'll bet that Remington is a piece of work!
Alan

[KCordell]

So does anyone shoot BP for waterfowl with their short 10?

[Rick Losey]

So does anyone shoot BP for waterfowl with their short 10?

not yet, but when the Parker 10 is all set, I have a good supply of brass 2 7/8 hulls

[Alan B. Webber]

Day after tomorrow is opener in CA. I just substitute bismuth for lead. Same amount of BP.

[wayne goerres]

This may be a silly question but if your are checked by a game warden and you are shooting hand loads or brass cased shells how do they check to see if you are shooting bismuth shot. Do they take one of your shells apart.

[Rick Losey]

This may be a silly question but if your are checked by a game warden and you are shooting hand loads or brass cased shells how do they check to see if you are shooting bismuth shot. Do they take one of your shells apart.

they certainly can if they decide not to believe you, as many as they want would be my guess

[Frank Cronin]

They have a magnet. It's good for steel but no so good for Nice Shot. You need to use a Hot Shot magnet or a rare earth magnet that they don't carry. A suspicious US Fish and Wildlife warden confiscated one of my shells to have sent to the laboratory. Name and contact information given. Never heard anything after that.

[Patrick Butler]

I have a Grade 2 hammer gun 2 7/8, which is at Brad's shop finishing a full restoration.

I have a case of RST lead 2 7/8 10s and they told me a few months back they will soon offer some non-toxic "Short" shells in several gauges, including the 10. As you may know, CA will ban lead for all game in, as I remember 2016.

The "before" pictures of this 10 are posted under the Hammer gun blogs and I'll post the "after" pictures there when I get it back.

[William Shirah]

I shoot a DH # 3 Frame - I love it above all others

[Paul Harm]

I don't duck hunt, but sometimes use BP for pheasant and grouse.

[Alan B. Webber]

Keeping up with fish and game laws is daunting in CA. Basically they can do anything they want.
BTW Rio of Spain is making bismuth shells in 12 and 20 3" shells. I'm looking forward to duck hunting with my 20 Repro with 3" bismuth.
Opening weekend of duck season got us 24 birds. My friend shot a Berreta auto and I shot a 1901 g grade with Vickers replacement barrels. He got a scotch double on Greenheads and I got one on Teal. More fun than a couple of guys should have.

[CraigThompson]

Lets see the first 10 gauge double to arrive in our house was probably 1980 or so my pop bought this 1922 Ithaca NID Grade 2 32" barreled 10 gauge . I never fired it until a couple years ago . Then this past hunting season I shot this little unlucky buck with it at about 20 yards handloaded #3 Buck in the right barrel and handloaded 000 Buck in the left barrel .

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/Deer/9_zpsc6d89303.png (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/Deer/9_zpsc6d89303.png.html)

Have a circa 1881 W&C Scott 10 gauge 30" that my grnadfathers owned since about 1948 and at his death it came into my possession . It was given to him by Marion DuPont Scott . She happened to be a descendant of the DuPont powder Co. as well as owning the first American bred American owned horse to win the Grand National in England back in the 30's . I've owned this gun for 8 years now , I'd rather it was still with my grandfather and he was still here . This also happens to be the gun that got me started loading the short 10's . Twenty years before I had loaded 3 1/2" for a Remington SP-10 . Anyway here are a couple pics of the W&C with deer and dove it killed a few years back .

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/10%20gauge%20shotguns/12-18-10eveninghunt002.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/10%20gauge%20shotguns/12-18-10eveninghunt002.jpg.html)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/10%20gauge%20shotguns/Dove2.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/10%20gauge%20shotguns/Dove2.jpg.html)


Picked a LC Smith Quality 2 circa 1890 10 gauge last summer . Needed to make a new firing pin otherwise it was okay . Used it last year during the DCP hunting and popped a doe at about 12 yards with handloaded #1 Buck .

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/Deer/9-2-13010_zps8ee0a988.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/Deer/9-2-13010_zps8ee0a988.jpg.html)

We've had this nice old 1845-1860 manufacture "Macfarlane" 10 gauge muzzle loader for about 20 years and I finally got around to shooting it this year . Have a nice load using 80 grains 2Fg and 12 "000" pellets . Plan to plow a deer with it this ML season .

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/10%20gauge%20shotguns/ML10gauge_zps01570cd1.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/10%20gauge%20shotguns/ML10gauge_zps01570cd1.jpg.html)

This is a J Manton I bought by mistake about 5 years ago , it's a POS but I worked on it a bit and shot it some .

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/10%20gauge%20shotguns/Manton8_zpsb3b156a4.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/10%20gauge%20shotguns/Manton8_zpsb3b156a4.jpg.html)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/10%20gauge%20shotguns/Manton2_zps59a6cd4e.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/10%20gauge%20shotguns/Manton2_zps59a6cd4e.jpg.html)

And finally my latest and FIRST Parker 10 gauge . A circa 1884 Grade 2 with 32" barrels that seem to be choked about IC/M on a #3 frame . Actually finalized the deal for this one yesterday .

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge005_zps7fca5e9f.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge005_zps7fca5e9f.jpg.html)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge001_zpsf7265fef.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge001_zpsf7265fef.jpg.html)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge006_zps0ade3e8b.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge006_zps0ade3e8b.jpg.html)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge002_zps4fe686ca.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge002_zps4fe686ca.jpg.html)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f316/6pt-sika/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge003_zps91309b8b.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/6pt-sika/media/Parker%20Grade%202%2010%20gauge%20circa%201881/Parker1891hammer10gauge003_zps91309b8b.jpg.html)

[Mills Morrison]

Very nice Craig. Ten gauges are great guns and underrated

[charlie cleveland]

mighty good selections of 10 ga you have shown us..and i also like hunting with my ten gauges...i ve took a few deer also with my old ten s they are a hoot to shoot..i ve just loaded up some 000 buck for my old ten s i patterened them in the e grade parker ten and it does pattern mighty good out to 40 steps...getting one with a pumkin ball in the ten is next after i get one with the 8 ga pumkin ball...charlie

[Mike Franzen]

This may be a silly question but if your are checked by a game warden and you are shooting hand loads or brass cased shells how do they check to see if you are shooting bismuth shot. Do they take one of your shells apart.

If you have a receipt for the non-tox shot carry it along with your license and you may be ok

[Richard Flanders]

I've seen the older style detectors they use have issues with bismuth because they're designed just for steel and are just a magnetometer. The Canadian guys took my word for mine being bismuth handloads without taking a shell apart but some might want to dismantle one shell. Could be the newer generation detectors, if there are any, have kept up with the influx of newer and different non tox shot types. I've considered carrying a small vial or ziploc with some bismuth shot or KTM or whatever to educate wardens who are not familiar with it.

[scott kittredge]

. The Canadian guys took my word for mine being bismuth handloads without taking a shell apart but some might want to dismantle one shell.

With out a warrant? they better be sure the have "good cause" ? not sure how it works, that loaded shell is worth a lot to me in the field, 100's of dollars not just the 3.00 I have in it, scott

[CraigThompson]

Very nice Craig. Ten gauges are great guns and underrated


I suppose about eight months ago I won an auction on Gunbroker for what was supposed to be a rather rough DH 10 gauge hammerless of if memory serves about 1890 vintage . Anyway the UPS driver brings it to the shop , I open the box and the buttstock drops out not attached to the action . When I won the auction I knew the buttstock was incorrect . And beforehand I had asked the correct questions as the guys pics sucked and he told me he was 200% sure it was a DH blah blah blah . After the stock fell out I got the rest out to see where they busted the stock . And after looking at the metal it looked worlds better then the pics they had on GB . However the gun turned out to be a EH not a DH . Gun was bought as is no return . well I got on the horn with the fellow I bought it from text him some pics of the seriel number on the water table with the E marking etc etc packaged it up and sent it back as he agreed to refund any and all funds I had tied up in the whole fiasco . On hindsight I wish I had kept it and found another old stock to have fit to the gun .

After this deal I thought I had an NH bought but the shotgun Gods in the sky thought better of that deal as well .

I think I had 4 or 5 deals for Parker hammerless 10 gauge guns go south over the last couple years . Got to the point I thought I never would get one and to be honest I wasn't overly enthused about this hammer gun when I first laid hands on it . But after awhile it grew on me and with that being said I'll still need atleast one Parker hammerless 10 before I give up . Actually a pair would be better one on a #2 frame and the other on a #3 frame !

[CraigThompson]

I was wondering last night did they make 10 gauge guns on the hammerless #1 action ?

And if so was this a common thing or relatively scarce ?

[Dave Noreen]

A DH-Grade 1-frame 10-gauge visited our PGCA booth at The Vintage Cup at Orvis Sandanona a couple of years. It was fairly rough, but either Ron Kirby or Mark Conrad vetted it. Only one I've ever heard of.

[Dean Romig]

Dave, was the chamber length recorded on that 1-frame?

[Leighton Stallones]

Yes, I sometimes trim my cases to 2 3/4 however

[Dave Noreen]

Dave, was the chamber length recorded on that 1-frame?

I don't recall. Perhaps Kevin McCormack or Bill Murphy remember.

[Bill Murphy]

We didn't measure the chambers on the #1 frame ten. I was afraid the chamber gauge would bust through the chamber walls. The chamber walls were very thin. The gun is in the Serialization Book, #71767, a 26" DH Grade. I've never seen another one.

[CraigThompson]

We didn't measure the chambers on the #1 frame ten. I was afraid the chamber gauge would bust through the chamber walls. The chamber walls were very thin. The gun is in the Serialization Book, #71767, a 26" DH Grade. I've never seen another one.

In your "book" it says the gun left the factory with 26" pipes ?

I bet that thing woulda made a heck of a dove quail gun . I also "assume" it was choked rather open ?

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, the gun left the factory with its 26" tubes. My little 27" DH ten on a #2 frame weighs 7 pounds, 8 ounces. I assume the 26" gun on the #1 frame weighs a bit less.

[Dean Romig]

We didn't measure the chambers on the #1 frame ten. The chamber walls were very thin. The gun is in the Serialization Book, #71767, a 26" DH Grade. I've never seen another one.

Does the stock book say anything about the gun possibly having been rechambered from a 12 to a 10 such as the subject gun in "The Parker Convertible" by George Purtill in the Autumn 2014 Issue of Parker Pages?

[Bill Murphy]

I have not seen the original order for this gun. Maybe our research committee would post a picture of the original order, or the stock book entry, to answer your question. I assume the SB entry was accessed from the original stock book entry, which apparently stated that the gun was made as a ten gauge.

[charlie cleveland]

would have liked to have seen this 10 ga quail gun.bill if the quail ever getto a huntable number bring that short barrel bird gun to mississippi...charlie

[jim garrett]

I shoot 3, Parker, Smith and Daly and load for all 3

[charlie cleveland]

sounds like you got the ten under controel jim...nothing like a ten gauge...charlie

[CraigThompson]

We have a customer that comes in quite often and he's kinda into British doubles . Anyway one day he brought in a W&C Scott in a 10 gauge that he wanted us to get Danny Patton to bend the stock .

Now this thing had some monster heavy pipes on it and I made a comment about them being kinda stout . Come to find out this gun had left the factory originally with Damascus 8 gauge barrels which he also had and was sent back at a later date to be fitted with factory fluid steel 10 gauge barrels . I wish I had taken some pics of it as he has since sold it down the road .

I truly would like to have owned that gun !

[CraigThompson]

Correct me if I am wrong but was it not the general rule to say 10 gauge Parker's on #3 frames as waterfowlers and those on #2 frames were considered upland guns of the time ?

And I would assume at the time of manufacture this 10 gauge on the #1 frame would be considered a Light , Super Light or whatever the correct term of the time would have been ?

[Bill Murphy]

Extremely light, extremely rare, and probably built against the recommendations of Parker Brothers. Chuck, can you let us see the order for this unusual gun? #71767.

[Bill Murphy]

This weekend, I added one that Charlie would like. A nice little NH 32" ten on a #6 frame, barrels marked 8 pounds 1 ounce. I haven't weighed her yet, but I expect in excess of 13 pounds. Chambers are 3 1/2". My PGCA letter may indicate that the gun is a rebarrel with factory 3 1/2" chambers.

[Rick Losey]

Sounds like a nice piece of artillery Bill

[CraigThompson]

This weekend, I added one that Charlie would like. A nice little NH 32" ten on a #6 frame, barrels marked 8 pounds 1 ounce. I haven't weighed her yet, but I expect in excess of 13 pounds. Chambers are 3 1/2". My PGCA letter may indicate that the gun is a rebarrel with factory 3 1/2" chambers.

The gun has 3 1/2" chambers with damascus barrels ?

[Bill Murphy]

Not Damascus, but Twist Steel. If the gun was rebarrelled at Parker Brothers after the advent of 3 1/2" ten gauge shells, the gun could be factory chambered for them. Dave Noreen can tell us what the date of introduction for 3 1/2" ten ammunition, and maybe the PGCA letter will shed some light on a possible rebarrel from eight gauge. Some eight gauge Parkers were rebarrelled to ten gauge, and maybe twelve gauge after eight gauge guns were outlawed for waterfowl. I have one of those in my collection, and maybe now I have two.

[charlie cleveland]

bill i would love that gun...what a turkey gun...charlie

[William Davis]

I brought a Parker 10 back from the fall Southern. 30 inch Fish tail lever nice Damuscus and Wood. I think it's a 2 grade. 10 lbs.

Will get some pictures posted

William

[Bill Murphy]

Congratulations.

[walt brown]

well I 'LL chime in now and say i ve got a short 10 ga

[William Davis]

I have two Clay fields near me with good high towers. Thats were this 10 is going to spend it's time.

William

[Rick Losey]

I have two Clay fields near me with good high towers. Thats were this 10 is going to spend it's time.

William

that would be fun (ours was not part of the course last i checked) - tight chokes and heavy barrels- get them moving and stopping your swing is not an issue.

[Dave Noreen]

The first listing for the Magnum-Ten shell I have is the April 1, 1932, issue of Western Ammunition for Rifle, Revolver and Shotgun. The Magnum-Ten appears in the second printing of Ithaca Gun Co.'s 1932 catalogue.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/Magnum-TenAnnouncement1_zps81a6d266.jpeg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Ithaca%20and%20Lefever/Magnum-TenAnnouncement2_zps7ca388c0.jpeg

And thus began a misprint that stayed in Ithaca Gun Co. catalogues for years. Capt. Chas. Askins' Magnum-Ten was really a No. 4E. The good Captain did have a fully loaded NID 16-gauge that was a No. 5E. Both later resided with Elmer. The Magnum-Ten with its not to my taste restock is in the Elmer Keith diorama at the Cabela's in Boise, Idaho.

[CraigThompson]

I have two Clay fields near me with good high towers. Thats were this 10 is going to spend it's time.

William

Well my Grade 2 hammer hopefully will kill a not to bright deer this season and possibly some December dove . But later this month I'm going to Shenendale in Augusta County VA to shoot sporting and helîce . My plan is to use the hammer gun provided they have no stipulations against the 10 like Central VA Sporting .

[Rick Losey]

found this thread while looking for something,

Pete - did you lose count?? wonder how many where added since the last update

[Alan B. Webber]

that would be fun (ours was not part of the course last i checked) - tight chokes and heavy barrels- get them moving and stopping your swing is not an issue.

That's so true about the big guns. I have a #6 frame 10 with 36" barrels. It's like swinging a railroad track. It's not often you undershoot a bird.

[Stephen Hastie]

Add one more to the Gang
I still use my short ten. For wildfowl, it has a fishtail and it is a #3 frame. At the moment it is in the gunsmiths for a replacement stock I dropped it and broke it, which I replaced a few years back because the original stock was to short. I still have the original stock.

From where the sun don't shine

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Do you roll your own cartridges Steve? At one time Kent made a short 10 gauge loaded with their TM shot But they were only available in the UK.

Destry

[Stephen Hastie]

Hi destroy
Yeah I load my own cartridges for this gun, I have not found any Taylor made cartridges over here, I think there to expensive. But I live in hope?
Steve

[Kenny Graft]

I should not read this stuff!...Now I have to pay for that sweet Ithica short 10 I just bought from our guns for sale thread. The way I see's it... you are all to BLAME. All that talk about how everyone needs a short ten!, what great turkey guns they are, how much fun they are to shoot, they can fold a goose across lake erie with the right load of nice shot and it goes on and on. Now I will need a loader and hulls SXS ohio

[Destry L. Hoffard]

My problem with shooting a short 10 gauge very much is shells, just like everybody else who doesn't load. I had a small inventory, but had actually been tempted to sell them because I just wasn't using any of my short 10 gauges. I'd given my lifter over to a friend so all I had left was my D grade hammer gun. Then I took the D grade out a couple times, and I'm wanting to take it more. Of course those couple trips put a serious dent in what ammo I had available. Wish you could still shoot lead legally, I've got about three cases of that.......

[Richard Flanders]

You got one hell of a deal on that Ithaca Kenny. You'll be laughing in a few years if you keep it. If I needed another short 10 I'd have grabbed it in a hearbeat the minute I read the post.