Parker VHE Question

[Marty Bryant]

I picked up a 12 ga VHE at a pawn shop yesterday that has me puzzled. The serial # is 193XXX which makes it a 1921. The 30" barrels are about 80-90% and the case coloring is around 40-50%. The barrel weight is 4-4. The frame size is marked 12 and it measures 1 1/8" center to center of the firing pins. It has a straight grip stock. What puzzles me is that it has no safety. I can't find any pictures of one without a safety or any information on the safety being optional. Any ideas?

[Linn Matthews]

Early pidgeon guns were usually made without safeties. Of course Parker, being ever sensitive to customer wants/needs/delights, would supply most requests for customization
I am not familiar with a "12" frame--you sure it is not a 1 1/2?

[Bill Murphy]

12 is a gauge mark on some later guns. If you put a magnifier on the lug, you may see a faded frame size marking, likely 1 1/2, but maybe a 2. A no safety Parker is a scarce variation that some of us are searching for.

[Jack Cronkhite]

A warm welcome to you Marty. Some pics of your pawn shop Parker will help answer many of your questions. Some in focus shots of all the markings you see on the gun will be helpful in discussions. Oh, as an Old Hunter knows, you can also shoot better tasting fare than pigeons with it.
Cheers,
Jack

[Marty Bryant]

I'm on the road now but I'll be home tonight. I'll try and get the pictures posted tonight. Any time I'm traveling I try to hit every pawn shop I can find. You never know what they'll have.

[Marty Bryant]

Here are the pictures of the markings. I've looked at the mark under the 12 with a magnifying glass and I can't figure out what it is supposed to be.

8770

8771

[Dean Romig]

Okay, that's a 2 Frame, The 2 is stamped lightly and almost looks like an N.

Is that a Remington code on the left barrel flat?

[Marty Bryant]

I can see the 2 now. It's turned sideways. The Remington codes that I'm familiar with are letters. The marking is the numbers 118. There is also a J.G. in a circle.8772

8773

8774

[Dean Romig]

I don't know the significance of the 118 but the JG is the mark of James Geary who was a barrel maker or finisher.

[Bill Murphy]

That is a nice Parker. Too bad it is a bit late for original ownership provenance.

[Jack Cronkhite]

What about the HT A stamp?? I have not seen that before. I have not seen the gauge stamped on the lug before but then I haven't seen a lot in life :)

[Dean Romig]

I believe that represents Heat Treated & Annealed.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Is that another means to describe the case hardening process??

[Dean Romig]

No Jack, a completely different process was used on the barrels than case hardening.

[Marty Bryant]

First I would like to thank are the members here who have provided all the great info about this Parker, especially Jack Cronkhite. Jack and I have exchanged several PM’s about the features it has. The request for the letter went in the mail today. I can’t wait to see what it says.

I hope the letter verifies the no safety option. I can't see any evidence that it was removed at a later date.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2450

I’ve spent quite a few hours reading the FAQ’s and browsing the forum. The info that is available is amazing. I hate to waste anyone’s time by asking questions before checking to see if the info is already out there. From what I’ve read is seems that the screws, trigger guard and trigger should be blued and the forearm metal should be case hardened. Is this correct?

I don’t have any specific Parker books so I’ve also been reading info that’s posted on the internet. I’m always suspicious about info I get out there until I can verify it. Some of the info I found is:
There were 3983 VH models with straight stocks.
The no safety option was the rarest Parker option.
Less that 1% were made with the no safety option.
Can anyone verify if these are accurate statements?

The serialization book verified the barrel length but says it has a pistol grip stock. Jack recommended that I check under the lower tang to see if the serial number was on the stock. The serial number is stamped there. The lower tang is a little over 6” long from the back of the trigger guard to the tip.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2449

Most of the screws appear to be turned and some have damage. The worst is the pivot pin screw. I’m going to very carefully try and move the metal back into place. I’ve had to do this many times on some of my old Winchesters and other SxS’s.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2453

The worst problem it has is the toe of the stock. The finish is scratched off and there is a chip missing. Luckily there is no damage to the buttplate. I’ve been reading about the correct finish for the stock. I haven’t decided what to do about this yet.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2455

Instead of trying to put a lot of photos here I created an album (Marty’s 1921 Parker VHE) and put the photo in it. If anyone would like to see more pictures of any details let me know and I’ll add them.

Thanks again for putting up with all my questions and graciously providing me all the information.

[Richard Flanders]

A good stock guy can splice a piece in there and touch up the finish well enough to make it hardly detectable. For that gun it's well worth it. See our home page links button to find the stock repair folks.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Marty: Pays to visit the pawn shops.

These screws are all mixed up on reassembly. Probably the rear screw was meant to be a left or right and the left or right screws are also on the wrong side. The left screw will have a straigt cut across the tip. The right screw will have no marking. The rear screw "should" have a + cut on the tip if all three screws are the same length. If one screw is obviously longer than the rest, that is the rear screw. If you remove them, and if they are the originals, for sure you will find the left screw and be able to place it in the proper hole and it should index with the slot stopping in line with the long axis of the gun, as they all should. (Left means under the left barrel btw)

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2446

Here is the left screw mark. Ignore the comment on the + mark in this picture. I need to fix that. Still learning. + was a mark used to identify the rear screw when all three were of the same length. By default, the screw with no mark is the right screw, when all are the same length. Replacement screws, to my knowledge, are not marked.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=128&pictureid=1476

Have a very close look at this engraved area on the underside. That is the location for the safety slide. If it was removed welded and refinished there may be evidence of that on the underside. Or..... wait for the letter :)

[David Holes]

I have a gun just like yours. recieved letter back and it started as a pistol grip was sent back to factory and was returned without safty and a straight grip.

[Bill Murphy]

Keep us informed on that letter business.

[Marty Bryant]

Jack, I feel like a dummy. I hadn't touched any of the screws. When I check them they were loose. When I tightened them they lined up correctly. They are all three the same length. The left has a "-" and the rear one has a "+".

I can't see any evidence of the underside of the top tang being welded up. I didn't remove the stock completely since I didn't want to remove the sears. Also the top of the stock is not relieved for the safety mechanism. Is there anything else I should get a picture of before I reassemble it?
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2460http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2461http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2462

[Jack Cronkhite]

Marty: You have done very well - purchase in the first place, the impatience to get into it but not mess it up and the very good pictures. Since the top tang appears not to have been welded and the stock was not inletted for the safety lever jacket, maybe it came from the factory just as it is. If so, the serialization book would have an error but we still have that 118 code that no one has yet explained. Hopefully, the letter settles all the questions. I suppose you will be out shooting it soon. :)

Cheers,
Jack

[Marty Bryant]

I suppose you will be out shooting it soon.
Most definitely. I got back home with it Tuesday night. I was shooting it Wednesday.

[Larry Frey]

No Jack, a completely different process was used on the barrels than case hardening.

Dean,
Are you saying that the barrels were heat treated and annealed? I may be wrong but I always thought the barrels were soft (unhardened) steel.

Marty,
I would also be interested to know what the rarest option offered on our Parker was. If I had to guess I would have thought the articulated front trigger would be a good choice.

[Paul Ehlers]

Jack, I feel like a dummy. I hadn't touched any of the screws. When I check them they were loose. When I tightened them they lined up correctly. They are all three the same length. The left has a "-" and the rear one has a "+".

I can't see any evidence of the underside of the top tang being welded up. I didn't remove the stock completely since I didn't want to remove the sears. Also the top of the stock is not relieved for the safety mechanism. Is there anything else I should get a picture of before I reassemble it?
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2460http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2461http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2462

Marty,

In the last picture you posted of the top tang "picture on the far right" under the engraving you can clearly see the factory applied filler piece that fills the slot where the safety slide would normally go.

If I remember correctly the Parker story talkes about these filler pieces Parker used if a gun was ordered without a safety. These fillers were fit so well that they were almost undetectable and were normally engraved over to help hide them.

I'll just about bet when you get your letter you'll be very pleased that it was ordered sans safety.

You did well with this pawnshop find!!!

[Dean Romig]

In my opinion there are longitudinal lines visible on both the top of the tang and on the underside of the tang indicating the safety slot was welded up and scroll-engraved.

[Marty Bryant]

You're absolutely correct. While I had it apart earlier I cleaned it up a little. I just looked at the tang with a magnifying glass and I can clearly see the filler. I was looking for evidence that it had been welded up, ground down and polished.
I would also be interested to know what the rarest option offered on our Parker was. If I had to guess I would have thought the articulated front trigger would be a good choice.I agree. I would think that the articulated front trigger would be more rare. I don't even know what all the options were. It would be interesting to see a chart with the different options and how many were ordered with each option.

[Dean Romig]

Dean,
Are you saying that the barrels were heat treated and annealed? I may be wrong but I always thought the barrels were soft (unhardened) steel.

Marty,
I would also be interested to know what the rarest option offered on our Parker was. If I had to guess I would have thought the articulated front trigger would be a good choice.

Larry, I checked in TPS and could find no documented reference to HT over A but in my previous post I was simply repeating what I have been told by respected Parker collectors.

I think the articulated triggers is a rare option but I believe "No Rib Extension" is even more rare.

[Dean Romig]

I've never seen those two cuts in the underside of the top tang adjacent to the screw hole.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Ditto. I've had a few apart and haven't seen that.

[Patrick Lien]

I've never seen those two cuts in the underside of the top tang adjacent to the screw hole.

REALLY??
These cuts are what controls the safety spring on the underside of the top tang. I have never seen a Parker safety without them. Otherwise, how does the safety work? In a sans safety gun I would question this. So if there are others with "NO SAFETY" guns that can take them down for pics then we can see if "NO SAFETY" guns had these notches or if Parker made "NO SAFETY" actions without these cuts. If you have a Parker with a safety that does not have these cuts on the top tang I would like to see pics of how it works.


Patrick

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Patrick. In that case, I'm sure that 've seen them and had probably forgotten.

Actually, I have one apart in the other room and just went to check it for those filed slots.
Mine is an 1893 GHE and has two milled depressions about 3/16" wide - not as wide as the tang
and they are rounded depressions made similarly to lightening cuts in a water table.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Marty: Next time you have your hollow ground tips, camera and the inclination, could you take a pic of the rear trigger plate screw with the "+" sign. I have yet to see one and it is nice to have the confirmation of the reason for that mark.

Dean & Patrick: I too was surprised at the V notches completely cut across. I have not seen that. I have two apart at the moment (108603 and 145522). The safety spring sits in a much smaller milled depression centered in the tang, as Dean describes. I have had a few apart and that has been consistent. I can see how the V notch would perform the same function but have yet to see one like that. So... when I do see one like that, it won't be a surprise.

Cheers,
Jack

[Bill Murphy]

I'm sure that most if not all "no safety" guns are built on "safety" frames that are pre cut for safety button and safety springs. The lack of a safety cut in the wood would be a no brainer for originality in case a letter does not confirm the "no safety" option.

[Marty Bryant]

Marty: Next time you have your hollow ground tips, camera and the inclination, could you take a pic of the rear trigger plate screw with the "+" sign. I have yet to see one and it is nice to have the confirmation of the reason for that mark.

Here are the pictures. They are a little blurred. Next time I have it apart I'll try again.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2477http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2478

[Jack Cronkhite]

That's great Marty. Nice to see the real thing and that they really were where we thought they should be. Also nice that they were just loose and when snugged up they were perfectly indexed. Yep, Mr. Parker made good guns and the attention to detail was ever present and when it is not it is due to someone playing that really didn't know what to do. The damaged roll pin screw head is one of the most damaged screw heads because of lack of knowledge. There is seldom any reason to play with that one but a lot have sure been messed up. Thanks again for the pics.
Cheers,
Jack

[Marty Bryant]

That damaged joint pin screw has been bugging me. I spent about an hour working on it. It's better now. Here's the before and after pictures.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2453http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2479

[Jack Cronkhite]

Nicely done. Gently peening with patience can return much of the metal to where it belongs. I've also done the small screw heads and they turned out fairly well. A lot of the messed with screws are salvageable. They will be weaker than the original slots but once an action has been disassembled and cleaned oiled and reassembled it should be good for another half century before someone needs to turn those screws again

[Bill Murphy]

Marty, that's a great looking job on that screw.

[Marty Bryant]

Thanks for the positive comments. I couldn't clean the slot up completely without reshaping the head and I didn't want to do that. I also repaired it in place. I didn't want to damage it more by trying to remove it. I can't imagine why someone would want to remove that screw. Now I've got to decide where to send the stock to get the toe repaired and the finish touched up. Does anyone have any recommendations?

[Marty Bryant]

I've been reading the thread about the no-choke guns with cut-off barrels and the FAQ about how to determine if barrels have been cut. The serialization book says this Parker has 30" barrels. They measure 1/16" less that 30". The keels are visible and the matting goes all the way to the tip. It's going to be interesting to see what the letter says.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2480http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=243&pictureid=2481