New CHE on the Way

[Arthur Shaffer]

I purchased a CHE on GB for too much this weekend, but it was an interesting gun. It is a 1904 model sold through Walter E. Clark Co. in Nebraska and shipped to Chamberlain Cartridge & Target in Cleveland. The attached letter (hard to read) shows it was fitted with 31" Titanic barrels with Lyman sights, an extra full comb straight grip stock with drops of 1-1/8" x 2", very tight chokes with the tighter barrel on the right. No 2 frame size and weight of 7-3/4#.

A check of TPS production data shows that only 2 C Grade guns were ever made with 31" Titanic barrels. There are somewhat less than 200 31" barrels listed but less than 20 in grades C and above total, divided mostly between Bernard and Acme with a few Titanics.

I am scheduled to receive the gun Monday and will have some more info then. It is missing the hammers, but looking at the pictures at least part of the other internals are there and it opens and locks up normally. I have a selection of some internals as spares so hopefully it will be relatively easy to correct, especially considering there are no safety parts.

My major questions are does anyone recognize the style of recoil pad and does anyone maybe have a graded trigger plate available? It would be easier if I could find one rather than have an engraved copy made. The pad is worn and could be used for a while with a leather slip on, but eventually needs to be addressed. It appears in the pictures to be a glued on pad with a cork or foam center. I suspect the former but can't tell until it is in hand. I have never personally run across such a pad but suspect it could be rehabbed by slicing off a vintage style red pad and doing a transplant on the outer layer. I would only fool with that if it some sort of significant style.

I will post more pictures once I receive it and examine it in detail.

https://i.imgur.com/r5rVzqT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/affMFlp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cgK2LAs.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/k0E4rms.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xWZAPHe.jpg

[Garry L Gordon]

A great production year, and an interesting gun.

[Dave Noreen]

It looks to me like it might be a one-layer Huntley from pre-WW-I days.

129047

JOSTAM acquired Huntley by the armistice, and it became the JOSTAM "Sponge Rubber" Pad --

129048

Later an upstart competitor made a similar pad for a while called AEROCEL.

[Brian Dudley]

The gun is likely not missing the hammers. Many parkers are described that way by people who dont know better. Because they cannot see the firing pins when the gun is cocked.


I can likely help with a D grade trigger plate. I know I have a few here.

[Mills Morrison]

I have a C top lever 10 gauge with 31 inch barrels which handles very well

[Arthur Shaffer]

I have a C top lever 10 gauge with 31 inch barrels which handles very well

I tabulated all these the other night, and if I am not mistaken, that would be the only C Grade 10 ga 31" barreled gun ever made. It has Bernard barrels, correct?

[Arthur Shaffer]

It looks to me like it might be a one-layer Huntley from pre-WW-I days.

129047

JOSTAM acquired Huntley by the armistice, and it became the JOSTAM "Sponge Rubber" Pad --

129048

Later an upstart competitor made a similar pad for a while called AEROCEL.

I will check when I get the gun but from the pictures it sure looks like the original one. I may have to try grafting a replacement piece in and then using it with a slip on to protect it.

[J. Scott Hanes]

It looks to me like it might be a one-layer Huntley from pre-WW-I days.

129047

JOSTAM acquired Huntley by the armistice, and it became the JOSTAM "Sponge Rubber" Pad --

129048

Later an upstart competitor made a similar pad for a while called AEROCEL.

I have a JOSTAM pad with two layers of sponge rubber that came off a 1951 870.

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, are these the pads that are nailed onto the buttstock? If so, I would remove the whole thing and start from scratch with a Hawkins or Silver pad.

[Mills Morrison]

I tabulated all these the other night, and if I am not mistaken, that would be the only C Grade 10 ga 31" barreled gun ever made. It has Bernard barrels, correct?

You are correct and that is the one

[Arthur Shaffer]

You are correct and that is the one

There are twice as many of mine than yours. I have a 25" GH Damascus that there were 3 made. They are almost a dime a dozen.

:whistle::whistle::rotf::rotf::rotf:

[Arthur Shaffer]

Dave, are these the pads that are nailed onto the buttstock? If so, I would remove the whole thing and start from scratch with a Hawkins or Silver pad.

I saw a note that the base was tacked and glued, then the top layer glued on. They would be easy to get off, but they have to be a pretty rare item from that period. I will leave it a while until I decide what to ultimately do with the gun.

[David Noble]

I purchased a CHE on GB for too much this weekend, but it was an interesting gun.

Art, why do you feel you paid too much for that gun? Seems like a very fair deal to me.

[Arthur Shaffer]

The gun is likely not missing the hammers. Many parkers are described that way by people who dont know better. Because they cannot see the firing pins when the gun is cocked.


I can likely help with a D grade trigger plate. I know I have a few here.

Well, Brian is the winner of the Mystic's award. I received the gun today and there is absolutely nothing wrong mechanically with it. Whoever was assigned to assess the gun and do the writeup apparently never even snapped the triggers. It looks like it has been a long time since it was cleaned. There is a lot of crud in the screw slots and the engraving and checkering is dirty.

On the upside the gun is in better condition overall than I thought. The engraving particularly is much better than I thought. It has a little CC left aroung the triggers and inside. The engraving is very fine and in hand looks still sharp and unworn, though most of the finish is gone. The recoil pad is a cork center so I am sure it is an original from the same period as the gun. Unfortunately it is not really recoverable. The cork is compressed on the ends and flaking a little. The cork and plates are delaminating. I have a couple of new Silvers repros that will fit and will replace it with one of them.

The stock dimensions along with the full comb feels incredibly good, with an almost perfect hourglass sight picture that I prefer. The barrels, I believe, have been honed at some point in the past and measure 0.735 in both barrels with 0.041 constriction in the right barrel and 0.035 in the left. The chambers measure 2-5/8". MWT is .037-.040 behind the chokes and around 0.12 in front of the forcing cones. They need a good cleaning and the right tube has a few freckle pits (probable left from the honing) about 6 or 8" back from the muzzle but only barely visible. I may or may not polish them after cleaning.

Since there are a few compressions in the stock, I plan on taking it down, sonic cleaning, lubing and reassembling. While apart I will steam out the compressions as much as possible and install the pad. All in all I am really pleased with the gun, even though it will be primarily a pass shooting and turkey hunting choice. I will post some pictures when I get it together.

After getting the gun in hand, I am thankful that the class clown did the writeup. It probably deterred a lot of possible bidders.

[Drew Hause]

Odd that Walter Clark ordered the gun in February, then had it shipped to Cleveland Cartridge Co. Cleveland was a major promoter of trap shooting.
The 1904 GAH was in June in Indianapolis and Cleveland supplied the traps. I didn't find Clark in the list of competitors
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/37904/rec/115
nor was he listed in 1905
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/37132/rec/124

Found this re his father:
Hugh G. Clark was in business in Omaha from 1876 till his death in December, 1892. Beginning in 1876, he was in the general merchandise business until 1884, when he sold out, retaining the agency for various powder and dynamite companies only, which of late years has developed into a large business itself. In connection with a branch, conducted by his son, in Denver, Mr. Clark's business extended as far west as Nevada, and north to Montana.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Odd that Walter Clark ordered the gun in February, then had it shipped to Cleveland Cartridge Co. Cleveland was a major promoter of trap shooting.
The 1904 GAH was in June in Indianapolis and Cleveland supplied the traps. I didn't find Clark in the list of competitors
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/37904/rec/115
nor was he listed in 1905
https://digital.la84.org/digital/collection/p17103coll17/id/37132/rec/124

Found this re his father:
Hugh G. Clark was in business in Omaha from 1876 till his death in December, 1892. Beginning in 1876, he was in the general merchandise business until 1884, when he sold out, retaining the agency for various powder and dynamite companies only, which of late years has developed into a large business itself. In connection with a branch, conducted by his son, in Denver, Mr. Clark's business extended as far west as Nevada, and north to Montana.

According to the letter, Clark had it shipped to the attention of "Morrie". Don't know if it was their gun or he was in charge of receiving special orders.

[Randy G Roberts]

Art, I have a CHE 2 years younger than yours that is a factory safety delete gun. I have noticed that the engraving over the safety slot in your gun is a fair amount more elaborate than mine as you can see. Nice find on your part.

[Russ Jackson]

Once upon a time ,I owned 106312 , DH ,28 Gauge Titanic Steel 25" Barreled gun The only one made ! I used it as part of the deal when I bought my 410 ! I bought it through Chuck Brunner and he warned me more than once I would regret trading it and kept asking me if I was sure ,I was , but again Chuck was spot on ,it is the gun I parted with along the way I regret the most ! It was an early O Frame and I owned a DHE OO Frame at the time so I figured I was good but , sadly the O Framed gun was the gun to keep , I loved carrying it and it was very unique ! The SAD TRUTH you just can't own them all !!!!:rotf:

[Reggie Bishop]

Art, I have a CHE 2 years younger than yours that is a factory safety delete gun. I have noticed that the engraving over the safety slot in your gun is a fair amount more elaborate than mine as you can see. Nice find on your part.

34"! Nice one!

[Bill Murphy]

Russ, you are wrong. You can own them all. Just quit selling them.

[Chuck Bishop]

I'm amazed that you guys keep saying this gun is the only one made in this configuration or this gun is only 1 of x number made in this configuration when you know the data in TPS is extrapolated to take into account for the missing records.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but it seems you are saying the known records were tabulated and then scaled up (extrapolated) to allow for a proportional increase in all the categories in the tabulation. That means the tabulation in TPS was over reported (above what the records revealed), not under reported. For instance, if 20% of the records were missing and they tabulated 4 guns of a certain specification, then the count in the book would have been listed as 5. So a 1 of 5 gun may have been really a 1 of 4 gun. Or a 1 of 6 gun. No one can really say. What you can say is that it is very rare. The other fact is that if, for instance, only 1 or 2 guns of a specification were found in 80% of the records, there is a better than average chance that no more were made in the smaller number of lost records. Additionally, the scaling could be right or wrong depending on what is being considered. For instance, there may have been more or less records lost during the time Bernard barrels were used vs Parker Special. A different scaling factor would have been required for each specification and time period.

I have never heard any mention of extrapolation, but I am surprised it was done. I always assumed that everyone realized it was a count from the known records and that some of them are missing. Generating biased data doesn't seem something that would have been really helpful.

In the case of rare specifications, it really doesn't change much. Unless the majority of the records are missing, the number doesn't even change. Extrapolating the number of 1 or 2 guns will still round off to 1 or 2. For 3 or 4 guns it may round off to 4 or 5. I think it is very, very unlikely that the records show only 1 or 2 guns of a certain specification and then a search of the lost records turn up a batch of 50 of them. They are rare for a reason in the existing records. I think everyone knows that the records are not perfect. There are many known instances where the records are simply wrong based on the gun as found. The only baseline we have to use as a measure of rarity is the tabulation published in TPS and will not change barring a finding of the missing records.

A good question is: how many guns are missing from the records vs the serial numbers used? We all know the serialization book is incomplete compared to the known records due to leaving out the many of the lower grade guns during certain periods. However, we know what serial numbers are recorded in the order books and we know there is an accepted total number of serial numbers, so how much was this "extrapolation"?

[Frank Srebro]

Art, I'm happy that worked out so well for you. I'd been watching your new CHE on GB and had my finger on the bid tab several times as it timed out but in the end relied on that goofy description and decided I didn't want another project gun. Otherwise we might have gotten into a bidding war. Again, happy for you.

[Arthur Shaffer]

It's amazing how many guns I have purchased at what I think is a good price due to poor descriptions. One of the best was a gun listed as a Fox Sterlingworth with a description that said almost nothing. One look at the pictures showed it was a small bore NID in great shape. I sent him a question and asked if the gun was the actual gun shown in the pictures. His quick replay was that it was the actual gun for sale. Since he offered returns, I bid his minimum and was the only bidder. I got it for only a few hundred dollars. Thst sort of thing happens a lot.

[Dean Romig]

I'm amazed that you guys keep saying this gun is the only one made in this configuration or this gun is only 1 of x number made in this configuration when you know the data in TPS is extrapolated to take into account for the missing records.

Chuck, I think the claims of “only” should be redefined as “only known”.

That would take into account any missing records that may indicate otherwise.





.

[Chris Travinski]

Vague descriptions and bad pictures can make for a great buy. You have to interpret what you can see in the pictures and make an educated decision. Sometimes it's worth rolling the dice...

John,
That CHE is a neat piece. I'd enjoy the heck out of it just the way it is! Just my $.02.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I have done quite a bit of work on the CHE.

I cleaned the metal with Ballistol and Frontier pads. I went over the barrel exteriors with Flitz. After disassembly I cleaned and lubed all the internals. There was surprisingly little crud there.

The first issue was the recoil pad. I removed the old pad and believe it was original to the gun.

https://i.imgur.com/29uKa6R.jpg

This is the butt after removal. The stock with pad equaled the LOP from the factory letter and there are no screw holes under the pad, so I believe it came with the gun. I installed a Silvers repro pad with about 1/2" more length.

The trigger plate was an basic trigger plate with essentially no engraving.

https://i.imgur.com/vXG6VVt.jpg

I got a D grade plate off an early gun from Brian with 4 quail on the plate. While not a C grade, it complements the gun well. It took quite a bit of work to fit the plate, as the replacement was too thick and too tight for the frame. A few hours of filing and fitting took care of this. The triggers were also way too tight in the slots so the triggers had to be fitted.

The stocks looked pretty good from a distance but up close there were a lot of issues. The left cheek had two deep grooves, the left side had a long scrape, and the right side had several relatively big grooves. Besides that, there were a lot of surface scratches, bumps and compressions.

https://i.imgur.com/BiWhifv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CWVlsrn.jpg

I used steam to try and raise the grooves and compressions as much as possible. There were numerous very small dents and rubs. I got most of them out completely and a couple of the larger ones were left with a shallow defect. The only two that improved but stayed noticeable were the two on the left cheek.

After the recoil pad was off I cut off the finish with 220 to within 1/8"-1/4" of the checkering to be able to blend the finish in and not alter the checkering or or bordering. I then used 220 to carefully take the remaining defects down, with the exception of the two on the left cheek.

At that point I sanded with 320 and 400. This was followed by a heavy coat of Timberlux left on a while then rubbed out, followed by two more coats laid on and rubbed dry. I left this overnight then put a heavy coat on with 800 grit wet/dry paper to fill any sanding or scuff marks. I wiped this down when dry with alcohol than put on two more coats rubbed until dry. I should mention that I use the fast drying Timberlux.

At this point the gun is where I think I will leave it. It is original except for the pad, which was simply not useable, and the D instead of C trigger plate. It satisfies me, looks good and is serviceable. Anything past this point will not be original, the cost will escalate drastically and be no more functional.

The only minor things I want to finish are:

Remove the pad and take it down slightly on a pneumatic sander to it's final shape, then reinstall and seat the plugs.

Clean up and time the trigger guard screws.

Lighten the right hand trigger to match the left.

Deep clean the bores and polish them.

While the pad is back off I will likely add a few coats of finish, then wax and buff.

Here are a few pictures of the completed work.

https://i.imgur.com/GG5eGEW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VliKVB9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Z3cbc2e.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hZ9357k.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/w8jrgvc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/h8i5Yqa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lB2u52a.jpg

[allen newell]

its coming along nicely

[Stan Hillis]

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