Remington Repairs during WW2

[Frank Srebro]

I've used the Advanced Search function and found some threads but haven't come up with a clear answers to the following two questions:

1) I've come across a nice 1920's Parker with Repair Code RMM3 indicating November 1943 and of course that was during WW2 when Remington was heavily involved in our war efforts. The question is: at that time was Remington generally accepting Parker repair work from the public, or were repairs primarily done for factory staffers or others "with pull"?

2) In November 1943 was Remington doing restorations with cyanide case colors and if so, were they striped, mottled or what?

Thanks in advance for replies.

[Brian Dudley]

I know that the late remington made guns were bone charcoal hardened on all of the parts except for the top levers which were cyanide colored. As they were supposedly having issues with the levers warping with bone charcoal.

I would not think they would have varied from that process at that time with service work. But I wiuld not be able to say for sure.

[Frank Srebro]

Thank you Brian. Anyone know how Remington took in Parker repair work during the War?

[edgarspencer]

Thank you Brian. Anyone know how Remington took in Parker repair work during the War?

More than likely, something like "I have a friend..."

[Alfred Houde]

Since some Parker Gun employees made the move to Ilion it would seem unlikely that they were not tasked with doing repairs during the war.

Remington was fully engaged in the war effort and Parker production was suspended, but I don't think Parker repair work was only done for exclusive folks.

If I had to guess, it was more like as time allows, or the extent of the needed repair. Hunting and shooting continued during the war, so it is doubtful Remington told folks "Sorry, not until the war is over." But "I needed it yesterday" probably didn't fly either.

Just speculation. FWIW, Alden Hatch's Remington Arms, In American History has a good summary of Remington's days during WWII.

[Dean Romig]

‘As time allows’ I could go through my small collection of Remington documents and letters to customers. Maybe there is something in them that might shed some light on the subject.
All of their documents and correspondences were dated.





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[Kevin McCormack]

Remington did repair Parker guns during the war, albeit on a limited basis. According to Babe Del Grego and Bob Runge, the supply of common parts (e.g., triggers, floorplates, top levers, spindles, hammers and such) available to repair guns was thought sufficient to last for literally years, but specialty items and the machines to make and install them like barrels, vent ribs. and ejector parts were virtually unobtainable either because the machinery to make them had been scrapped for the WW II effort, or their specialty materials used in their production (specific types of tensile steel for barrels) were strictly relegated to arms production for the war. A fascinating sidebar is that one repair category, single triggers, was listed as 'unavailable' because the counterweights used to reset the triggers for the second shot were made of stainless steel, a component deemed critical in the logistics of armament production. Chromium plating ordnance steel was contemplated as an alternative, but the cost was deemed prohibited given the frequency of requests for same and the duration and intensity of labor required to produce them. Remington produced a list of
doable and not doable repairs, which was sent to jobbers and dealers and as a response to individual inquiries from interested clients. If your requested repair was on the approved list, they would do it for you, provided you remembered there was a war going on!

[Dave Noreen]

I just found this in a 1943 issue of Hardware Retailer --

129806

and remembered this thread.

[Sara LeFever]

I just found this in a 1943 issue of Hardware Retailer --

129806

and remembered this thread.

What a find! Thank you for sharing that! I have a few family photos of Frank, but not much.

Sara

[J. Scott Hanes]

Sara,
That looks like the Vandalia, Ohio water tower in the background (at the Grand American). Do you know for sure?

[Sara LeFever]

Sara,
That looks like the Vandalia, Ohio water tower in the background (at the Grand American). Do you know for sure?

I don’t have any information on the location. I assumed it was taken in the Ilion, NY vicinity.

[keavin nelson]

I know that the late remington made guns were bone charcoal hardened on all of the parts except for the top levers which were cyanide colored. As they were supposedly having issues with the levers warping with bone charcoal.

I would not think they would have varied from that process at that time with service work. But I wiuld not be able to say for sure.

I have a late 20Ga VH that has Cyanide colors on the forend iron and latch as well as the toplever. Also no label on the barrel rib.

[Dean Romig]

I may have found some communications from Remington execs on the subject of the “Parker Project.”
Just before Austin Hogan passed away he gave me a lot of his files and data, some of. Which contained Remington communications.

More tomorrow.





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[Brian Dudley]

There was an attempt to resurrect the Parker name in the early 1950’s. To be put on an economy Remington designed boxlock. Much like ithaca did with the Lefever Nitro Special.

[Dean Romig]

I found all of my archived Parker Bros. and Remington Parker factory correspondence. They (Remington Arms) did not take in any repair work or sporting gun sales after early 1942 and after the war they never again restarted the Parker shotgun project as, according to Remington mgmt. the machinery was too worn out and they had virtually no parts in stock and couldn’t even re-barrel a Parker with damaged barrels. Aaaaand… they would NOT take in for service ANY gun with Damascus barrels… Period.

I will post some of this correspondence on a separate post when I can make the time.

This information came to me from Austin Hogen a month or two before he passed. This data and info came to him from Ron Kirby, Charlie Price, Bill Hoover and other long-departed wonderful Parker Historians.





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[J. Scott Hanes]

That will be interesting to see, Dean. Too bad none of the DelGrego's are still here to discuss these historical questions. Both Babe and Lawrence knew a lot about that kind of detail.

[Dean Romig]

In the archive that I have there are a few early letters or communications by DelGrego.





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[Dean Romig]

That will be interesting to see, Dean. Too bad none of the DelGrego's are still here to discuss these historical questions. Both Babe and Lawrence knew a lot about that kind of detail.


You know Scott, I have said on dozens of occasions both here on the forum as well as to the deceased gentlemen to whom I make reference here...

When one of them passes, and by 'them' I mean the gentlemen who were there, who knew what happened, who knew the truths from the untruths, who could have but for some reason never did - To record for posterity everything they knew, who did what, what were their experiences, what was told to them by the men who took an active part in the successes, and failures, of the production of the Parker shotgun. But whenever one of them passes away we all have lost a veritable encyclopedia of knowledge.

We should thank God for the tireless work of the authors of "The Parker Story"!





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[Alfred Houde]

Back in 2000 I attended the Remington Police Armorer Course at the factory in Ilion. On my way back to my hotel one afternoon I stopped by the DelGrego shop on Barrington Road. Babe was there and had recently (or was) recovering from his stroke. Larry was also there working at the bench.

Babe gave me quite a lesson in Parker history. He also told me that they only worked on Parker Guns and Remington Model 32 shotguns.

I also seem to recall that he told me that when his father retired from Remington, he purchased Parker parts, barrels, unfinished guns, etc. for the price of scrap. I do remember Babe showing me drawers full of original parts.

And I agree with Dean. Why some folks choose to keep a lot of history and knowledge to themselves as if it were a State secret I have no idea.

Thank God for folks like Roy Jinks who pretty much single-handedly saved Smith & Wesson history when they demolished the original factory, and our own Researcher who freely shares knowledge and information from his research collection/library with others.

[J. Scott Hanes]

You know Scott, I have said on dozens of occasions both here on the forum as well as to the deceased gentlemen to whom I make reference here...

When one of them passes, and by 'them' I mean the gentlemen who were there, who knew what happened, who knew the truths from the untruths, who could have but for some reason never did - To record for posterity everything they knew, who did what, what were their experiences, what was told to them by the men who took an active part in the successes, and failures, of the production of the Parker shotgun. But whenever one of them passes away we all have lost a veritable encyclopedia of knowledge.

We should thank God for the tireless work of the authors of "The Parker Story"!







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I am with you 100%, Dean. Remington has lost several "historians" in recent years that could recall an incredible treasure of details but never put them to print. It really is a shame guys like Jack Heath, Dick Baldwin and Ken Waite, Jr. did not get their minds 'tapped' by someone who could record those gems.

[Dean Romig]

And Art Wheaton and Allan Swanson and Austin Hogan and Charlie Herzog and Bill Furnish and Ron Kirby and soo many others, some of whom are still with us but their time is shortenin’ and unless it is recorded soon it also will be lost. Years ago I suggested to Allan and a couple of others that a sit-down Parker gab session could be electronically recorded and this could be done as a meeting on a quarterly basis but there didn’t seem to be any interest.





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[Bill Murphy]

Dean, what do you propose? For your information, I own the Dick Baldwin collection of research material. In past years, I have been accused of obtaining that information by nefarious means by several PGCA powers. I have freely shared any information from this collection when it is requested. Each time I share this information, I am accused of receiving this information by whatever uncouth methods. Nothing could be further from the truth. Dick and I agreed that I would be the custodian of this file. I have always been willing to share, but others in PGCA have not. Your turn.

[Bill Murphy]

I replied to Al Houde by PM and maybe he will share my reply, with my permission, to add to this conversation.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, please don’t think I am pointing a finger at anyone. I am only suggesting that information needs to be shared before it is lost forever. If a custodian of historic information dies without sharing that information it is potentially lost forever unless the family knows its importance and makes moves to have that information shared…. Which is a highly unlikely expectation.

No offense intended.





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[Alfred Houde]

Hello Bill:

I wrote you back via a PM. I know that you gave permission to share it, but I believe private messages should stay just that.

With that said, maybe we as members should put our heads together or maybe ask leadership about this subject of sharing information.

I understand and fully support the research letters and the fee behind them. That is a whole different thing. But perhaps we need to go further and catalog some of the historical information like in this subject thread for example.

I have a high interest in both Remington and Parker, and their brief effort together. I enjoyed the comments.

We hear and grumble a lot that we are dying out, and young people have little interest. I feel that they do, but they need that mentorship and knowledge that many, many, members here have.

I also read all the old threads and comments about the past. It is just that, the past. And sadly, many of those "old guard" guys are no longer with us.

As an organization, we should look towards the future. Remington used to have printed on their letterhead - Don't say it, write it.

Any thoughts or ideas? One team, one fight as we used to say.

[J. Scott Hanes]

Dean, what do you propose? For your information, I own the Dick Baldwin collection of research material. In past years, I have been accused of obtaining that information by nefarious means by several PGCA powers. I have freely shared any information from this collection when it is requested. Each time I share this information, I am accused of receiving this information by whatever uncouth methods. Nothing could be further from the truth. Dick and I agreed that I would be the custodian of this file. I have always been willing to share, but others in PGCA have not. Your turn.

Bill, I did not know that you had some of Dick Baldwin's research material and I assume it is primarily pertaining to Parker.

Just to clarify my comments earlier in this thread, I was referring to the Remington (including Parker) historical information by the named people [and there are others] that was carried around in their heads and not committed to print until it was too late. Many of us commented over the years that "somebody should write a book about...". At least Baldwin did so.

[Bill Murphy]

Dick Baldwin's book was about trapshooting only. My Dick Baldwin file is several thick binders of original Parker and Remington-Parker memos, charts, and correspondence that Dick had accumulated over decades. I am very pleased that he chose me to save and protect his collection. Unfortunately, some PGCA types, some living, some dead, chose to make it difficult for me to share it. When some other curators of Parker information decide to open their files, I will open mine. These people know who they are. I have identified them on this forum many times.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, when you decide the time is right for you to share them will you be posting these memos and other letters/documents on the forum here? In the past you have said you don’t know how to post images on the forum… If this is still the case, I would be pleased to help you in any way I can.





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[Robert Delk]

I sold some Remington factory memos concerning Parker to someone who is,or was,a member here years ago.The dates were from the late 40's to the early 50's as I recall.Info that I can recall was parts on hand and work that could be done for repair. There were several sheets of single papers and one stapled group of papers.Maybe this doesn't help much unless I could remember who I sold it to.

[J. Scott Hanes]

Dick Baldwin's book was about trapshooting only. My Dick Baldwin file is several thick binders of original Parker and Remington-Parker memos, charts, and correspondence that Dick had accumulated over decades. I am very pleased that he chose me to save and protect his collection. Unfortunately, some PGCA types, some living, some dead, chose to make it difficult for me to share it. When some other curators of Parker information decide to open their files, I will open mine. These people know who they are. I have identified them on this forum many times.

Sounds pretty selfish of those individuals and to what end? That they pass from this world and still "own" some information? Oh well.

[Bill Murphy]

You would be surprised to see the list of those who are not sharing information. Dean, in my mind, I think that some of this information, as voluminous as it is, should be put out in written form, published, and made available to anyone who would spend the money to purchase it.

[Alfred Houde]

That was simply my point. I don't understand the "I know something you don't know, or I'll release it when I think the time is right" mentality.

No work is ever really finished, and previously unknown or new information is uncovered and turns up all of the time. This is why books are revised, and new editions are published.

Maybe an idea could be The Parker Story Volume 3?

I actually worked with a guy once who made the comment - "Books are BS. I haven't read one since high school."

He got no argument from me on his reading them part.

[Dean Romig]

You would be surprised to see the list of those who are not sharing information. Dean, in my mind, I think that some of this information, as voluminous as it is, should be put out in written form, published, and made available to anyone who would spend the money to purchase it.


I agree wholeheartedly Bill.





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[Dean Romig]

No work is ever really finished, and previously unknown or new information is uncovered and turns up all of the time. This is why books are revised, and new editions are published.

Maybe an idea could be The Parker Story Volume 3?

I actually worked with a guy once who made the comment - "Books are BS. I haven't read one since high school."
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Books certainly are NOT “BS” but the information in them becomes outdated, revised and sometimes even becomes obsolete.

The information in TPS is the best we could have ever hoped for at the time of publication… (See my statement above.) And certain parts of it have been expanded on here on the forum. There were errata sheets published but as of today another small volume of information that isn’t found in TPS could be published as an addendum.





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[J. Scott Hanes]

So how does this organization get there from here?

[Dean Romig]

I don’t think it’s up to the organization (PGCA ?).
I believe it’s up to a concerned group of Parker followers.





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[Bill Murphy]

A good start that would cause me to want to share my information would be for PGCA to come off the information they have locked away.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, I was a BOD member for two consecutive terms and had seen and examined the PGCA Collection and there was no unshared information in it. There were a lot of parts, pieces and artifacts but to the best of my knowledge there was nothing thad hasn’t been shared in one form or another. Probably the most valuable of them were the John Moses Browning Parker and an original, almost mint, clown catalog. If anyone has any information that hasn’t been shared, it is most likely privately owned, and not in the possession of the PGCA as an organization.





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[Craig Budgeon]

I have never seen anyone remark about Griffin & Howe/ Abercrombie & Fitch on this forum. It would seem to me that a representative of the PGCA might be able to gather new information in regards to Parkers. A talk with Doug Turnbull or the widow of Herchel Chadicks might be a resource. People who share knowledge with the PGCA could have it published in the Parker Pages with evidence if available