T.L. Golcher

[bruce a lyons]

Anyone have any info on this person? Bidding online on one of his shotguns. Apparently out of Philadelphia. Looks very English, but has no proof marks. Seems to be best quality. Hammer double with both 10 and 12 barrels. Thanks in advance. GB 1064368261

[Dave Noreen]

That gun was in the Dr. Bill McPhail family collection back in 2011. Bill sent me a DVD of pictures of the guns in his collection of our custom makers from the "classic" period, Civil War to 1900.

There is a plainer, but similar looking, 8-gauge Golcher in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Twelve, Issue 2, pages 135 & 6, said to be made by H.A. Linder.

There were a number of Golcher gunmakers in the Philadelphia area and later one went to St Paul, MN.

[bruce a lyons]

Is that the same Linder as in Pruissian/Charles Daley? Wonder why no proofs on the barrels?

[Bill Murphy]

T.L. Golcher mostly sold guns made by Lindner in Germany or Prussia. They are very similar to guns made by Lindner and marketed by Charles Daly. My T.L. Golcher marked guns are all of a quality less than a Daly Diamond Grade but higher grade than Daly base grade guns. If you will provide pictures, we can explain the markings. Most Golcher guns seem to be mixed in with Lindner and Daly serial numbers. Guns shipped for the US market did not require proof marks.

[Drew Hause]

Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire required proof starting in 1891. Thereafter, whether for domestic sale or export, proof, and proof marks were mandatory. I don't know the rules for unfinished actions for export.

Lindner Daly Model 125 manufactured c. 1900

https://photos.smugmug.com/Proof-Marks/i-xDDS9bk/0/MdnW378KgdrffG22DJL64Zb837hwT9bXk7psPdgJX/L/Charles-Daly-Model-125-1900-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Proof-Marks/i-xDDS9bk/A)

Winter 2005 DGJ "Ghost or Gunmaker - The Mystery of H.A. Lindner - Part II"
Imprints such as Prussia, Thuringia and Saxony on the water tables and barrel flats on many guns indicate that they were destined for the United States as their final destination. The U.S. Trade Laws prior to 1891 had no requirement that a country of origin be marked on product or merchandise. The Law was amended in 1891 to say that the name of the country of origin be imprinted. We therefore see Thuringia, Italy, Nippon and the like on guns of the period and up to 1921. This Trade Law was again amended in 1921 to read that the imprint must state , "Made in Country of Origin". We see, then, Made in England, Made in Italy, etc.

[Bill Murphy]

Drew, how do explain the 1120 number on the water table and the 4xx number on the trigger guard on an original looking gun? Also, no crossed pistols on an obviously Linder made gun? When is the estimated date of manufacture of this gun? The seller requires an FFL to send it. ATF says that they don't want antique guns in their licensee's files. Any comment?

[Drew Hause]

The DOM is the issue, and I don't know if the absence of proof marks are viewed by ATF as adequate evidence for pre-1892 production (satisfying the pre-1898 rule.)

[bruce a lyons]

Thanks all. Can't post pictures, need to look at GB 1064368261. I don't think the seller requires an FFL, as stated in the beginning of the ad. I am confused by the mis-matched numbers and lack of any proof marks. The engraving and wood are simply splendid and the extra barrels are a big plus. Not too many 10/12 combo's around like that.

[Dave Noreen]

Here one can see through the Photobucket markings the H.A. Lindner crossed pistols on 2187 a Geo. W. Golcher gun--

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=196524

According to Col. Gardner, Small Arms Makers, Thomas L. Golcher was only in business 1868 to 1875.

[Drew Hause]

Help from Raimey regarding dating Lindner guns and proof marks
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=641923

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=196423

[Bill Murphy]

The seller says no FFL required, then says an FFL is required for all sales. I'll go with the No FFL Required.

[Arthur Shaffer]

That ad is a little confusing. It states a 10 and 12 gauge in the title but never mentions the 2 sets of barrels in the description ; but does show as lot of barrel pictures. It has always been listed as no FFL required.

No one mentioned but "this guy" is the LS&B auction company. I check their new listings every other Sunday and either set a watch or bid on the ones for which I have an interest. I bid a nominal sum on it early but it has recieved a good amount of interest this early in the auction.

As an aside, I was getting a little confused by LS&B because their listings for guns in general and C&R/antique listings had been really dropping since they started their live auctions. I discovered only recently that they were gradually shifting almost all of these guns to their Wyoming Outpost auction site. I suspect they are getting fed up with California and their many rules. It likely really impedes their ability to receive guns from Type 3 licenses for resale. I hadn't checked the Wyoming site in a while and finally did and realized they listed most of the guns I am interested in. The site is still shown as Wyoming but the gun locations is listed as LS&B Wyoming. Most people may not know they run two sites and may not even be seeing the ads. I am surprised they didn't announce the change on their auction site.

[Bill Murphy]

All these changes were explained on their website a long time ago.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Probably, but I seldom look at their website. I doubt many people do; just check their auction listings. They generally include significant changes on their sales listings. They are still carrying a notice about ending their lay-away program. I don't believe they ever mentioned this on their Gunbroker listings. The transition started becoming noticeable about 6 months ago and I am on their listing site almost daily and have been for years. I don't recall any mention of the change. It started after I recieved a paper catalog for their first live auction.