C-grade Bernard

[Richard Flanders]

Gunbroker Auction # 228422428

So... how come no one has snatched this up??? Hard to believe the bbls are 'original' as stated and the stock looks to not be original. Someone must know this gun. A few days ago I asked for a closeup pic of the muzzles but got no answer. Muzzles look like it was used to pole a duck boat around a gravel pit...

[Russ Jackson]

I was wondering the same Richard ,I was taking a look myself ,but I have a real preference to Bird Dogs or Birds on the bottom of the receiver ! I have a nice original Skeleton Butt that would give her a nice finish with a little work , If she just had those Dogs on her :banghead: ! Russ

[Richard Flanders]

Has anyone looked it up?? S/N76306

[Russ Jackson]

B4, H ,0 ,C, 31 " , Thirty One inch barrels ,thats pretty unique ! The Gentleman has described the gun with 27 " Barrels and as being original ,maybe he has lettered the gun with the PGCA and possibly the serialization book is incorrect !

[Bill Murphy]

It needs a PGCA letter. The SB shows 31" barrels.

[Richard Flanders]

31", eh? Oh well... Maybe I'll buy it and leave it charged with 000 buck in the outhouse for 'cicle' control; the chokes are likely right for that as it's definitely a "close quarter" situation when the need for action arises..... or lag it to a stand and weld some rebar hooks to the muzzles for a coat rack...

[Dean Romig]

It needs a PGCA letter. The SB shows 31" barrels.

I agree. The SB book shows my 24" 28 ga. with 28" barrels but the OB (order book) confirms them as 24".

[Dean Romig]

Gunbroker Auction # 228422428

So... how come no one has snatched this up??? Hard to believe the bbls are 'original' as stated and the stock looks to not be original. Someone must know this gun. A few days ago I asked for a closeup pic of the muzzles but got no answer. Muzzles look like it was used to pole a duck boat around a gravel pit...

The stock looks (to me at least) original but unfinished - lacking any butt treatment at all and missing any evidence it had the silver oval. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of it's originality though.

Generally, if a customer didn't want any kind of buttplate or pad the notation in the book would be "no butt" or words to that effect and the stocker or checkering contractor would simply checker the butt all over.


.

[Richard Flanders]

Dean: do you see enough difference between the butt and the forend to indicate they don't match? Seems the butt is lighter. Could be that the butt is long enough to be bobbed off and a skeleton installed. And how common are checkered cheeks on C grades? Was that a special request item? They look well done.

[Dean Romig]

The 'book' indicates 31" barrels and also indicates a "C" for capped pistol grip when in fact it has a "P" uncapped semi-pistol grip. It looks to me as though it may have gone back to Parker Bros. for modifications. The wood to metal fit is just too perfect and the checkering just too "right" to be anything else, in MHO

[Richard Flanders]

Sounds reasonable to me. The wood/metal fit certainly seems perfect. The seller has added muzzle pics and some more info. There's no blank at the rib end. Hard to believe that would happen on an uncut C grade. Maybe the factory cut the bbls when they did the stock work? Seems they must have re-layed the ribs when they cut them if the muzzles do in fact touch. Wonder if they have any choke...

[Dean Romig]

My 28 ga. barrel tubes touch, have no choke, keels are in place and there is no blank at the end of the rib yet they first left Meriden as 24".

[Rich Anderson]

I have no idea why Parker put big game animal engraveing on their shotguns. My CHE Bernard 16 has Elk on the floorplate and I'm sure the 20 does also..just to lazy to go down and look:rotf:

[Frank Cronin]

To find out what the seller was describing about the vice marks and slots, I downloaded and edited with my PaintShop software the picture of the butt end of the stock since it was very dark photo.

I'm no expert or anything but I find it hard to believe a customer would request to order a gun so unfinished looking on a CH with Bernard steel barrels, let alone the factory allowing it go out the door like that. Has anyone seen something like this before?

[Gill Frye]

For what it would cost to get that gun...there is no way I could live with that.

[Dean Romig]

The auction has ended and some wise person bought the gun for the BIN price of $3750 which I think is a steal. If I didn't already have one that is not a project gun I would have jumped on that one without hesitation.

[Justin Julian]

The seller ended the auction early, but there is no buyer listed. If it was in fact sold to someone, it was an "off auction" sale. I requested the muzzle photos that were posted at the end of the auction. With the discrepancy over the listed and current barrel length, and upon seeing that the rib matting does not abate for that last 1/8" of the rib, the preponderance of the evidence strongly suggests that the barrels have been cut. As for those "vice" marks on the end of the butt, I recently had a walnut blank milled by a well known stock inletting company in Missouri and it returned with very similar marks on the unfinished stock butt. That would also seem to suggest that the stock is not factory original, though it is well mated to the metal. It is hard to fathom that Parker would have let a C grade go out the door in that condition. It is more likely that it was restocked and the final stages of fitting a recoil pad or butt plate were, for some long forgotten reason, left unfinished. I would be curious to know whether the seller did in fact sell this Parker, or whether he discovered some defect or other condition that caused him to close the auction early rather than disclose it.

[Angel Cruz]

I had spoken with the owner when the gun was listed the first time, and the reserve price then was 6250.00. I had pointed out to him all the issues covered by you guys and he was certain it was all original. He had offer it to me after the first auction was over but I didn't have the cash. So he dropped the price 3000.00, not bad.

[Dean Romig]

Justin, I wouldn't be too hasty to "suggest that the stock is not factory original" as we have seen some things on Parker guns that have been quite surprising. I agree that "It is hard to fathom that Parker would have let a C grade go out the door in that condition." but, again, we have seen stranger things. 'Never say never' is the rule of thumb when it comes to Parker oddities. A Research Letter may support some or all of these anomalies... or it may not, but with a little bit of imagination and a smattering of experience in seeing things like this before, the gun could be "right".

[Justin Julian]

You are correct that one can "never say never" where these things are concerned. I have a CHE with 26" barrels that letters perfectly, yet the rib matting runs clear off the end of the tubes. That is why I phrased my conclusions in terms of an evidentiary "preponderance" and "suggests". However, I will stand with my conclusions, looking at the current state of the evidence as a whole, that it is more likely than not (i.e. a 51% or greater probability) that the barrels on this gun were cut and the stock is not original. Of course, that still leaves a 49% chance that the opposite is in fact true.

I would also add the following; that it can be argued that a sophisticated seller like the one with this C grade would have invested the small amount of money to "letter" the gun knowing that proving its originality would greatly enhance its fair market value at auction. The fact that he has not offered up a letter suggests in my mind that he's pretty certain that its been altered and doesn't want to see what the letter will show. Admittedly, that reasoning is a bit speculative, but I would submit that it is sound common sense and can't be completely ignored as a relevant factor in the process of evaluating this Parker. In summary, it would be a gamble against the odds to buy this gun on the assumption that it is in its original configuration, IMHO. All that being said, I really, really liked this gun, and would have bought it for the opening price in a heartbeat, notwithstanding its previously mentioned issues.

[Richard Flanders]

I figured someone would snatch it for that BIN price. It's worth almost that without any wood, assuming the barrels have at least some choke. I'd like to know if it does have any choke. There's some nice V grades available that are more expensive than this gun was. The seller didn't do a very good job of describing the gun. If it is indeed "right" as Dean suggest possible, someone did indeed steal it.

[Russ Jackson]

I figured someone would snatch it for that BIN price. It's worth almost that without any wood, assuming the barrels have at least some choke. I'd like to know if it does have any choke. There's some nice V grades available that are more expensive than this gun was. The seller didn't do a very good job of describing the gun.

Richard ,I agree ,he really didn't do much with his description to help his sale ,with such a fine gun as this C Grade ,a letter should have been first on the agenda ,and I believe in his description it seemed he owned the gun for some time ,if you owned the gun and knew info. was available ,why wouldn't you get a letter for your own curiosity long before trying to sell such a gun !Really was /is a nice piece ,if it is sold ,somebody got a nice buy ! Russ

[Ken Descovich]

The gun has been sold and I am not going to tell who bought it.:p

All Kidding aside I will let everyone know the outcome.

Ken

[Richard Flanders]

Do that please. If it turns out to be a nice honest gun you will of course and out of courtesy, be required to distribute crying towels as needed....

[Ken Descovich]

Will do. I mailed the check to seller and the Parker letter request on the same trip to the mail box.

[Dean Romig]

Congratulations.

[Dave Suponski]

Ya Congratulations Ken, Please let us know how it turns out. I thought that great gun to be very interesting. You could have a gem there...:)

[charlie cleveland]

any parker is a gem indeed....charlie

[Bill Murphy]

All bets are off until the PGCA letter comes. It could have been factory made at 27", cut from 31" to 27" at the time of shipment, returned to Parker to be cut, with documentation, the same with no documentation, cut outside of the factory, you name it. OK, now the butt. "no butt" is not a rare order book entry. Back to the possibilities; the letter may shed some light. The good part is that restoring the butt on this gun will be a piece of cake. Be sure to let us know how the letter turns out. Great gun, in my opinion. My last great buy was a 17 1/2" BH ten that I am thrilled with.

[Dean Romig]

My last great buy was a 17 1/2" BH ten that I am thrilled with.

"Home Defense" or "Specialty Woodcock" gun ?

[Bill Murphy]

Neither. "Illegal" would be a better word. Still looking for a set of #3 frame Damascus barrels, preferably in 32". Will buy a whole gun if cheap enough.

[Dean Romig]

There have been a few sets of Parker barrels on gunbroker recently. Nothing for a BH though. That gun would require a set of Damascus barrels with the DD stamp to be correct. I'll certainly let you know if I come across anything that would fit your needs for that gun.

[Richard Flanders]

17.5"? Nice! Even I might be able to hit something flying with that baby!

[Rich Anderson]

Dean with that 10 of Bills and 1 1/2 oz of 8's you could be the deadliest Grouse shot in New England:rolleyes:

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, or others, any #3 frame Damascus barrels would be of interest to me if in nice condition and full length. Thanks.

[Dean Romig]

Rich, I think a 3-frame 10 bore with 17.5" barrels would just be too "whippy" for me.

[Justin Julian]

Is it really only 17.5" or is that a joke? A guy in my county with the last name of Weaver once cut a shotgun to that length and sold it to an undercover agent. When it was all said and done, his wife, kid and dog were all shot dead by the ATF. Those feds seem to take a dim view of a smooth bore with barrels under 18", so I hope you're just joking.

[Dean Romig]

Naw, it's just a joke.

[Dean Romig]

Justin, where was that, Ruby Ridge?

The way I heard it was an agent shot the kid's dog, the kid took out an agent or two and then agents shot the unarmed woman through the screen door of the house when she posed no threat at all.

Rough times up there on Ruby Ridge.

Further DSR sayeth naught.

[Justin Julian]

Yes, Ruby Ridge, which I can see against the sky line looking off my back deck to the West, about 5 miles away. I'm no Randy Weaver fan, but what happened there would certainly preclude me from ever joking on a public forum about having a sawed off shotgun....never know who's reading and whether they'll understand it to be a joke. I'm breathing a sigh of relief upon reading that it was said in jest.

[Ken Descovich]

Well here is the verdict on serial number 76306:

"Parker shotgun, serial number 76306, was ordered by W.S. Brown in Pittsburgh, PA on October 18, 1892 and shipped on February 14, 1893. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 31 it was a CH hammerless, 12-gauge. It featured Bernard steel barrels with a length of 31 inches. Its stock configuration was a capped pistol grip. The chokes were patterned RH (165 #8 pellets in a 24" circle at 45 yards) and LH (190 #8 pellets in a 24" circle at 45 yards) The order specified engrave shield "ROX" and set trigger pull at 4 pounds. According to Parker Bros. Stock book No. 27, its specifications were: Length of pull: 14", Drop at Comb: 1 1/2", Drop at Heel: 2 1/2", Weight: 7 pounds and 12 ounces. The price was $150.00.

According to Order Book No. 36, the gun was returned on May 28, 1894 by W.S. Brown to lengthen chambers to 2 7/8 inches. The cost was $1.00. According to Order Book No. 89, the gun was returned on October 13, 1914 by Dr. F.M. Bittenbeuder in Bloomsburg, PA to take dents out of barrels and clean. The charge was $2.00. According to Order Book No. 89, the gun was returned on December 3, 1914 by Dr. F.M. Bittenbeuder to restock to 1/2 pistol grip (2 3/4" drop and 14 1/2" length of pull), checker panel and side of stock. The cost was $15.00 for the stock and $3.50 additional for the extra checkering."

Well there isnt anything about the shortened barrels to 27":crying: but I believe the stock is the one replaced in 1914 even if there isn't any mention of the lack of buttplate. I have not recieved the gun yet it is in the mail.

Does anyone have any information on the two previous owners listed above?

[Bill Murphy]

W.S. Brown was a high volume dealer. The other fellow was probably the first owner of the gun.