Aldo Leopold - personal gun?

[Tom Roller]

For the well-read and researched, does anyone know what kind of double Aldo Leopold hunted with? A deeply conflicted hunter yet passionate grouse gunner, I have found no mention of his personal firearms but have seen a picture of him with his dog, and what is clearly a Parker leaning on a fence behind them.

Can anyone further elaborate?

[Bill Murphy]

Can you give us a reference for the picture, or, better yet, post it on this thread?

[alan cope]

I think there is mention of him using a Parker and a Daly . I think it was the Parker that wore out and his staff got him a new Daly- could be otherway around, not even sure if I got the right guy.

AC

[Dean Romig]

It is very easy to mistake an early Philadelphia Arms Co. (forerunner to the Sterlingworth) "pin gun" with a Parker. At first glance I have been fooled on one or two occasions.

[Phil Yearout]

A deeply conflicted hunter...

Tom,

I'd be interested in having you expand on that statement; if you'd rather do it via PM I'd welcome that as well. Thanks...

Phil

[Tom Roller]

Yall - I have the photo but need a few free minutes, that I do not have now, to post. It's an archival photo from a biography, etc. As the crew here is well read, I am hoping someone has seen a reference in a biography or academic piece about his guns. My friends in academia who are well-read in Leopold aren't going to notice or remember a tidbit on what brand gun he preferred.

A Sand County Almanac is easily one of the most influential pieces written on conservation and is laced with deep conviction. Though in reading one can easily see his struggle with how humans use natural resources and he commonly mentions who we "over recreate." He was an early advocate of bow hunting (in the 1930s, 40s) and was truly bothered by the automatic.

I offer this quote:

‎"Take a look, first, at any duck marsh. A cordon of parked cars surrounds it. Crouched on each point of its reedy margin is some pillar of society, automatic ready, trigger finger itching to break, if need be, every law of commonwealth or commonweal to kill a duck. That he is already overfed in no way dampens his avidity for gathering his meat from God." - Aldo Leopold, Sand County Almanac

and

"There are two kinds of hunting: ordinary hunting, and ruffed-grouse hunting."

[Dean Romig]

I don't see that as being a "deeply conflicted hunter".

Instead, I see Leopold as, like you say, a man with "deep conviction" who loves to hunt but knows what he doesn't like, even in his own community of sportsmen. Even today there are those who think nothing of breaking laws put in place for the benefit of the game we pursue. I hope we all carry the same convictions that Leopold had.

[Tom Roller]

My intention was never to engage in a philosophical discussion on the interpretations of Leopold's writings on hunting and sport. The quotes I offered, when read on their own, can easily take away from the ethos of his overall work.

I do encourage everyone to read "A Sand County Almanac" as it is truly one of the finest writings on conservation to ever be published. That I think we can agree on.

I came across this photo on the Aldo Leopold Foundation site and, as I have never seen a direct reference to his gun of choice (other than always being a double) it got me thinking. I cannot tell if there is a hinge-pin, but I do see a forearm wood insert...any guesses?

http://www.waterdogguideservice.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/aldoleopold1.jpg

*There is a larger version of the photo in the UW-Madison Leopold archives but I Cannot successfully link to it. You can search photos for "hunting" And it's fairly easy to find.

http://uwdc.library.wisc.edu/collections/AldoLeopold

[Dean Romig]

Sorry Tom, I thought you stated your opinion pretty well with the support of a couple of quotes so I thought I'd express mine. We don't need to discuss it further.

I have "A Sand County Almanac", have read it a few times and learned from it. It is a beautiful work.

[Tom Roller]

Dean - not a problem, I completely respect your opinion and clearly engaged in the same game. I have just learned, from past experience, that discussions on the ethics and philosophies of hunting/fishing are best kept off the internet and spoke about with friends and acquaintances over a good drink.

As far as the picture - I originally saw this in a book and just yesterday found the bigger version online and I thus can make out the forearm differences from a Parker.

Any guesses as to what it might be?

[George Stanton]

I remember reading somewhere that he shot a Fox.

[Dean Romig]

Tom, give us the link to the on-line picture.

I had thought the forend latch resembled the latch on a Fox so George's memory might be right on target.

[Jack Cronkhite]

The gun on the left, kinda looks Foxish.
The dark triangle at the tip and the V formed by the non-checkered portion of the fore end look right, as do the rounded ends of the latch. I'd go with Fox but reserve a life-line before declaring final answer. :)

Cheers,
Jack

SP Grade from 1934
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxgBr7lWRwO6JB6LLsfn44jIgDnzVTB TpFMWMkh44XBwsJG-Ty

The more visible gun appears to be a Fox. Also, nice looking dog and rooster.
Picture taken in Sauk County Wisconsin on 1943 October 16
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/AldoLeopold/data/images/MmBib/LeopoldArchives/large/leo0661l.jpg

[Tom Roller]

Thanks for the big picture Jack - I was unable to save it off any of the archives and thus post.

That being said, there are obviously two guns in the pic - and I hope someone who reads this can reference a book, etc. where it may mention his gun and/or guns.

[Jack Cronkhite]

The wonders of the internet

Aldo Leopold: His Life and Work
By Curt D. Meine, Curt Meine

p. 193 excerpt (time period is 1921)

The Tome Club became Leopold's main hunting grounds.....The latest in a long line of spaniels named Flick joined the outfit. Aldo indulged in a new shotgun, a beautifully engraved, .20 - gauge, double-barrelled Ainsley-Fox that cost the princely sum of three hundred dollars ("Three hundred dollars," Estella would later point out, "... and I needed a washing machine.")

Google Books link (http://books.google.ca/books?id=vCjSPsT8JdYC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=aldo+leopold+and+his+fox+gun&source=bl&ots=JQYbGoDt_W&sig=8qOL3oFDCSWTQnjK01uaB_S8qxM&hl=en&ei=xsbETc3zIMqJ0QGV97ihCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=aldo%20leopold%20and%20his%20fox%20gun&f=false)

[Mike Shepherd]

When I zoom my Windows Internet Explorer up to 400% and look at the picture it appears the barrels are Damascus. If it is Damascus then of course it couldn't be an AH Fox.

Best,

Mike

[Dave Suponski]

Mike, I agree the barrels look to be damascus when zoomed in. Could just be the graininess(Sic) in the picture. That forend looks to be Fox to me. Not quite sure on the frame sculpting though.

[Dave Noreen]

Sure looks like an XE-Grade Ansley H. Fox to me. XE-Grade Fox forearm --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/A%20H%20Fox%20Gun%20Co/XEForearmbottom-1.jpg

[Dave Suponski]

Dave, Does that frame sculpting look right for a Fox? Just askin...

[Mike Shepherd]

I think I see the spiral of the Damascus in both barrels. Did Philadelphia Arms make Damascus barreled guns? At 400% it is kind of like looking at clouds and being able to see indians and dogs and horses but I think I see the hinge pin of a Parker or a Philadelphia Arms gun.

Best,

Mike

Edit: It doesn't look like the forend on the Philadelphia Arms gun on the Fox site though: http://www.foxcollectors.com/ah_fox/content/philadelphia_arms.html

[Dave Noreen]

IMHO the hint of a recessed hinge-pin in the pictures is that the forearm iron is worn bright across the bottom where carried and is still darker on the side where the hand doesn't touch it. Many things could cause the idea of the damascus pattern to the barrels -- pattern from the gun case interior in the gun oil on the barrels, pixilation of the photograph, etc.

As to the other comment, Philadelphia Arms Co. did offer Damascus barrels on C-Grade and higher in their 1905 catalogue, but none but Krupp barrels have surfaced so far. Also, a Philadelphia Arms Co. forearm would look just like a Parker Bros. forearm --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Philadelphia%20Arms%20Co/76690013.jpg

E-Grade on left, C-Grade on right, not at all like the XE-Grade Ansley H. Fox forearm in the Aldo Leopold picture.

[Mike Shepherd]

Here is a Fox XE 16 in a similar pose:

[John Dallas]

How about posting this discussion on the Fox Board? They may have some background on this

[Dave Noreen]

I already did, in the AHFCA Members Forum.

[Dean Romig]

Dave, what are the years during which A. H. Fox worked for Parker Bros., and in what capacity?

[George Lander]

I believe that Ansley Fox worked for Parker as an Exhibition Shooter (pigeon ring) after he left Philadelphia Arms. If so, I read that in Mike McIntosh's book: "Ansley H. Fox, The Finest Gun In The World".

Best Regards, George

[Dave Noreen]

As far as I know, Ansley Fox never "worked" for Parker Bros. He was shooting a Parker Bros. double when he left his partners in the Fox Gun Co., Baltimore, Maryland, and went on the road for Winchester representing their line of ammunition, in January 1900. His former partners in Baltimore reincorporated as Baltimore Arms Co. and commenced building a gun of Frank A. Hollenbeck design. Ansley shot the Parker with Winchester ammunition into the summer of 1900, but by August the big W had him shucking a Model 1897. He went 25 straight with the Model 1897 at the 1901 GAH and then missed the first bird in the shoot-off. He continued with the Model 1897 into the fall of 1902 when he left Winchester to incorporate Philadelphia Arms Co. and began accumulating capital to build a factory and get production under way. George, if you read my history in the latest AHFCA Newsletter, you'd know Ansley left Philadelphia Arms Co. in late December 1904, and immediately set about founding A.H. Fox Gun Co.

[Dean Romig]

Dave, I have that issue of the AHFCA newsletter and read your article.

The reason for my question is the fact that there are so many visual similarities (intended?) between the Philadelphia Arms Co. and the Parker Bros. guns. Maybe for the same reason that some Belgian gunmakers marketed their guns under the name of "T Parker" and others in order to capitalize on the Parker name, Philadelphia Arms Co. did it with a visual likeness to the Parker Bros. shotgun....?

[Bill Murphy]

The gun in the picture appears to have an extended length forend like Fox used and no other maker did unless on special order. Three hundred bucks would buy a heck of a Fox back in those days.

[Dave Noreen]

$300 would be about right for an XE-Grade with a Fox-Kautzky single selective trigger and an extra set of barrels circa 1921.

[George Lander]

As far as I know, Ansley Fox never "worked" for Parker Bros. He was shooting a Parker Bros. double when he left his partners in the Fox Gun Co., Baltimore, Maryland, and went on the road for Winchester representing their line of ammunition, in January 1900. His former partners in Baltimore reincorporated as Baltimore Arms Co. and commenced building a gun of Frank A. Hollenbeck design. Ansley shot the Parker with Winchester ammunition into the summer of 1900, but by August the big W had him shucking a Model 1897. He went 25 straight with the Model 1897 at the 1901 GAH and then missed the first bird in the shoot-off. He continued with the Model 1897 into the fall of 1902 when he left Winchester to incorporate Philadelphia Arms Co. and began accumulating capital to build a factory and get production under way. George, if you read my history in the latest AHFCA Newsletter, you'd know Ansley left Philadelphia Arms Co. in late December 1904, and immediately set about founding A.H. Fox Gun Co.

Well, Dave, I was close, but of course you are correct.

Best Regards, George