Compare and Contrast

[Bobby Cash]

How would a late 30’s Remington era 12 gauge Parker Skeet compare with a
similar era Winchester Tournament Skeet.

Rarity, desirability, functionality?
Both English stock, single trigger, checkered butt and of similar weight.

Thanks.

[Dave Noreen]

The Winchester Tournament Grade Model 21 Skeet Gun was only offered from the Skeet Gun introduction in mid-1932 thru 1935. By 1936 the Tournament Grade was gone and the Model 21 Skeet Gun was offered in Standard, Trap and Custom Built Grade.

That said, the Tournament Grade Model 21 Skeet Gun seems to be more common than a legit Parker Skeet Gun.

[Kevin McCormack]

What Dave said - the M21 Skeet is very popular with the small coterie of shooters I shoot with every week - always see at least 1 or 2, often in 20 gauge. Seldom if ever see an original Parker skeet gun in any gauge. If I had to give a ratio estimate I would say 6 or 7 to 1 confirmed sightings of M 21s of any gauge vs. Parkers of similar persuasion. Just my personal experiences.

[Bill Murphy]

I have been shooting both 20 gauge skeets for many years. I'll have to admit that the Model 21 20 gauge feels better in the hands and on the shoulder than the Parker, which has a delicate personna that is not conducive to high scores. Of course, the Parker is scarcer and of more interest to collectors. Unfortunately, neither the thirties vintage of either brand is usually identified by factory letter for the identity of its original purchaser.

[Bobby Cash]

“CHOKES”
With Winchester you get pretty much WS2 / WS1
Any conventional wisdom on the range of constrictions you might enjoy with a Parker??
Thanks

[Dean Romig]

Just my HO but I thing a Parker would have Skeet chokes something like Skeet Out (Skeet 1) of something between .014"-.019" and Skeet In (Skeet 20) somewhere .005"-.011"





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[edgarspencer]

That's a lot of choke even for a going away bird. Ida guessed more like .012"-.014"

[Randy G Roberts]

Page 411 of TPS will give you some insight to the skeet chokings.

[Bill Murphy]

Parker skeet guns were not choked for modern skeet shooting style, but neither was the Model 21. Some of each were choked for owners who knew which end the shot comes out. That proper choking would be near cylinder in both barrels. Some few Parkers and fewer Model 21s were choked for modern skeet.

[Dean Romig]

That's a lot of choke even for a going away bird. Ida guessed more like .012"-.014"


I agree Edgar - my example was intented to estimate the least amount of choke and the possible greatest amount. The numbers you suggest I would think would be perfect for a 28 gauge and I thought a 12 gauge might have a bit more constriction judging by the size of the bore.





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[James L. Martin]

I will add for info my 20ga Winchester model 21 skeet gun chokes are: WS1 = .006 , WS2 = .008. Also all WS1 are bell shaped. WS2 chokes are like normal chokes.

[edgarspencer]

Ive had this chart glued on the floor of my barrel tool case for years.
The only dedicated skeet guns I had were a 12 & 20ga Winchester 101, and I can't remember what the the dimensions of the 12 were, but the 20 was .005" and .011".

[Bobby Cash]

Page 411 of TPS will give you some insight to the skeet chokings.
Hello Randy, no TPS available at the moment.
Can you elaborate please.

[Dean Romig]

Page 411 of TPS


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[Pete Lester]

FWIW my 12ga GHE Skeet is .007 in right barrel (Skeet Out) and .004 in left barrel (Skeet In). According to the factory letter, the gun was begun in June 1934, shipped to the warehouse on January 13, 1935 and shipped to E.C. Palmer on March 23, 1936. Almost two years from when work began to it being shipped to a buyer.

[Randy G Roberts]

Hello Randy, no TPS available at the moment.
Can you elaborate please.

Been tied up but Dean took care of it...

[Frank Srebro]

I will add for info my 20ga Winchester model 21 skeet gun chokes are: WS1 = .006 , WS2 = .008. Also all WS1 are bell shaped. WS2 chokes are like normal chokes.

Jim, it seems there are exceptions to the WS1 choke being hour glass/bell shaped. I’ve got a Model 21 two-barrel set (both 28") with s/n 67xx in 16 bore, non-auto safety, and its close barrel is factory choked and stamped WS1 and WS2. WS1 choke in the right barrel and IS NOT bell shaped, it's full tapered about 3.5" long and choked .005" using my Baker bore mike. Its left barrel WS2 choke is about 4" long, also full tapered and with .013" constriction. Both tapers are highly uniform from start to muzzles. Comments?

Incidentally the second barrel set is choked I-Mod and Full.

[James L. Martin]

Frank, I have measured maybe 6 ws1 chokes in 12 and 20ga model 12 and 21's. They were all bell shaped, but I have not had a 16ga ws1 to check, maybe they are different. I think I read somewhere that Winchester had a patent on the ws1 choke.

[Dean Romig]

Jim, it seems there are exceptions to the WS1 choke being hour glass/bell shaped. I’ve got a Model 21 two-barrel set (both 28") with s/n 67xx in 16 bore, non-auto safety, and its close barrel is factory choked and stamped WS1 and WS2. The WS1 choke IS NOT bell shaped, it's full tapered about 3.5" long and choked .005" using my Baker bore mike. Its WS2 choke is about 4" long, also full tapered and with .013" constriction. Both tapers are highly uniform from start to muzzles. Comments?

Incidentally the second barrel is choked I-Mod and Full.


My comment Frank is that the #1 barrel, the right barrel, in Skeet is fires at the outgoing clay, therefor it was normally choked tighter than the #2 barrel.
Usually the #1 barrel in Skeet was the right barrel and the left barrel, #2, was the more open choke for the incomer.

However, I have heard that Winchester screwed this system up and went with the left barrel/choke being #1……. :shock:…. This might have had something to do with the fact that most Skeet guns produced as ‘factory Skeet guns’ were being produced with a single trigger.






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[Frank Srebro]

On the Model 21/16g I cited here earlier the right barrel is choked/stamped WS1.

[James L. Martin]

All 21's I have seen were right barrel ws1 and left ws2 unless special ordered, in which case you could get any combination of any choke.

[James L. Martin]

Found some more info on web about WS1 chokes. I quote:
" I think I've found Winchester's patent filed in 1933 and granted in 1936 for the Winchester skeet choke. It wasn't based on any certain constriction or bore diameter. It had to do with a certain taper boring of the choke"
You can see the taper after the constriction area the taper goes to the end of the barrel and is larger than the bore diameter. I know Beretta copied the ws1 choke in a choke tube they made, I had one.

[Frank Srebro]

Thanks Jim, yes I'm aware the Patented WS1 choke is a reverse bell/hourglass profile, and unless special ordered the WS1 was typically on the right barrel of 21's. Same with the special hourglass profiled/right barrel choke of Fox "Skeet and Upland" guns whether double or single triggered. Not sure how Savage/Fox worked around Winchester's Patent. All told it seems that Parker's system for Skeet with left barrel more open choked was atypical.

Adding to my earlier post, I also owned a 16g Model 21 s/n 161xx that was stamped "Skeet" on the trigger plate, and it had full tapered chokes in both barrels, no reverse bell/hourglass choke in either. Right barrel .012" constriction and .015" in the left barrel. Winchester would do pattern testing and boring adjustments to confirm patterning as intended/ordered ..... the Big Red W didn't just rely on the difference between bore and choke diameters. Quality from a well respected company!

[Dean Romig]

Unless special ordered the WS1 was typically on the right barrel of 21's. Same with the special hourglass profiled/right barrel choke of Fox "Skeet and Upland" guns whether double or single triggered. Not sure how Savage/Fox worked around Winchester's Patent. All told it seems that Parker's system for Skeet with left barrel more open choked was atypical.!


Just a point - Parker’s Skeet choking was quite typical in that the more tightly choked barrel (first shot at the outgoing clay) was ‘typically’ the right barrel, just as was Winchester’s WS1 in the right barrel of the 21’s.





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[Bill Murphy]

Dean, you have the Winchester chokes backwards. The WS1 is the more open choke, which would be like the Parker "Skeet In".

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Bill - I stand corrected.

I was laboring under the delusion that WS1 would be the first shot taken in Skeet but, in view of my earlier thought that the single trigger on Skeet guns eliminates the idea that the tighter choke be one barrel of the other.

This is part of the progression of sxs in the clays games.





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[Dave Noreen]

As well as Savage's Skeet Cylinder for the right barrels of their A.H. Fox Skeet & Upland Game Guns my Remington Sportsman and Model 31 guns with SKEET barrels have a similar choke to the WS 1.

Walter Snyder provided me with this Ithaca drawing for Skeet chokes, but neither of my Ithaca made skeet guns are choked like this --

127044

but I wish they were. My 12-gauge NID No. 4E has .009" and .016" with normal tapers and my Lefever A-Grade 20-gauge .008" and .014". They are choke stamped on the barrel flats S & S.

[Dean Romig]

There’s that “hourglass” choke profile again, in the right barrel…





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[Drew Hause]

Capt. E.C. Crossman “Skeet Gun Patterns” in August 1936 Hunting & Fishing

He formerly believed…“the proper boring for a double 12 Skeet gun consisted of an improved cylinder right for Station 8 and incomers, and a much tighter tube on the left for the outgoers and all singles except Station 8; such a boring as improved modified or the famous Winchester No. 2 Skeet, or in barrel measurements, around .015 inch.”
But now feels “the Winchester No. 2 Skeet boring is too tight…” and “improved cylinder or No. 1 boring is both barrels seems about the right dope.”
He went on to criticize the Cutts spreader tube on single barrel guns for skeet, but did not define the tube diameter.
He mentioned a Fox with .011” left and a Model 32 Remington “bored for skeet” lower barrel .012”.

“Improved cylinder is the greatest degree to which a plain barrel should be opened, this being not less than .004”. The finest example of this at present is the Winchester No. 1 Skeet boring, which has about .004 choke at a point 3” from the muzzle. The muzzle section then becomes larger…until finally the barrel at the muzzle is about …0.750” instead of the normal 0.730” of the 12. This is a relieved muzzle or bell muzzle, originated by Ithaca years ago.”