But What About Our Ruffed Grouse…?

[Dean Romig]

“Over the next three decades”???

What about the immediate problem in the Northeast of the radical disappearances ou our ruffed grouse? We’ve been talking about this for about a decade and such a program here would certainly be a benefit. These days I see more barred owls while hunting in Vermont than I see ruffed grouse, even when hunting with my Gracie.


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[Frank Srebro]

Grouse numbers have plummeted here in PA while we've seen a major increase in land and avian predators. Chicks in particular are especially vulnerable. Hardly anyone traps anymore and hawks/owls have been totally protected for decades now. Anyone driving through PA on the Interstates when the leaves are off can hardly go one mile without seeing a hawk(s) sitting on a tree eyeing for its next meal. There was a time and not so long ago when our Game Commission called for small game hunters to shoot these “vicious predators on sight”. And that was in its official publication. Loss of habitat is total joke propaganda pushed by the RGS and PGC and methinks the WNV is at most a minor impactor. Sure, you can find a grouse or two here and there, but sorry to say I don't see any real hope for grouse recovery on the horizon.

[Stephen Hodges]

Dean, this plan seems to make sense but I doubt that it will ever see implementation. I would be surprised if the tree huggers were not already calling there lawyers to begin filing suits to block it.

[James L. Martin]

Frank and Harry are 100% right, I have been saying the same thing for years. The real problem is hawks and owls plus other predators. The loss of habitat is BS

[Craig Larter]

Our hunting club is in eastern Wayne county NY a very rural area mostly apple orchards, row crops, mixed hardwoods and extensive wetlands. Fishers, coyotes, hawks and owls have eliminated every ground nesting bird, our turkey population has crashed. Back in the 70' the lake plains of NY were a pheasant hunting meca. . Now the ducks in our part of the flyway are in deep trouble. Mallards number are down 50% in the last few years. The wetland habitat in our area of central NY has doubled in the last ten years but duck numbers keep trending down. Why?????

[John Allen]

Another factor that the fish and game people don't want to talk about is the rise in turkey populations. In the south our wild quail have all but disappeared. So have a lot of ground nesting birds like meadow larks. If you watch a flock of turkeys move through a field,they are constantly eating. A quail or grouse chick is no bigger that most insects. This plus the increase in other predators makes it hard for any ground nesting birds to increase.

[Ian Civco]

This thread certainly is an eye opener.

I don’t have the opportunity to hunt grouse—simply because they are gone. If I saw one, I wouldn’t shoot it, due to them being uncommon.

I have been brainwashed, hoodwinked, call it what you want—to believe the decline in the grouse population was due to changing habitat. Because that’s what the powers that be want you to think. Meanwhile, not a day goes by where you don’t see a bird of prey somewhere. I even saw an American Eagle within a third of a mile of my house within the last week.

Maybe it’s time they rethink policy and thin more of these birds of prey?

[Mills Morrison]

They need a program like that for hawks and eagles down here to help wild quail

[TOM DAMIANI]

Instead of RGS stressing habitat why not take some of the funds raised by their dinners &dues to supplement $ trapping with bounty on these predators .S.D.does not have a problem with its pheasant population as predators removed quickly on sight as pheasants are a cash supplement for the state.:bowdown:

[Dean Romig]

Another factor that the fish and game people don't want to talk about is the rise in turkey populations. In the south our wild quail have all but disappeared. So have a lot of ground nesting birds like meadow larks. If you watch a flock of turkeys move through a field,they are constantly eating. A quail or grouse chick is no bigger that most insects. This plus the increase in other predators makes it hard for any ground nesting birds to increase.


True John, in most areas but where I hunt in Vermont, along with the serious decline of ruffed grouse numbers, there ia an alarming decline in turkey numbers as well.





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[Alfred Houde]

Great thread. Pretty much all of the things mentioned are a factor. Ruffed Grouse are cyclic. They have up and down years. I have long felt that the abundance of predators (both winged and four-legged) is the main source of low numbers of not just Grouse, but Quail and Ducks. Extreme dry weather certainly has not helped.

For all of the blather we hear about lead ammunition and "saving the eagles" I see far more eagles, hawks, ospreys, and owls than I ever did as a kid growing up. Fox, Raccoons, Possum, Coyotes, etc. are far too in number. It is true that Trapping numbers are way down for many reasons, and kids simply have no interest. They don't even play outside, why would anyone expect them to put in the work involved in running a small trapline?

WNV has played a role. I was told by a Wildlife Biologist here in Virginia that it does not appear to affect Grouse at higher elevations. One place I hunt in Virginia is over 4,000' and I saw good numbers last season. Good, but not great in the ADK.

Additionally, make no mistake, anti-hunting people have wormed their way into positions within the USFWS and State Fish and Game Departments. It seems that the focus is more on climate change and making our Wildlife Management Areas "more welcoming" than managing them for wildlife.

Keep supporting groups like RGS/AWS, Delta Waterfowl and Ducks Unlimited. They all do good work. I know sometimes it looks like nothing but expensive trips and high-dollar banquets, but we need them to help preserve our heritage.

[Frank Srebro]

Instead of RGS stressing habitat why not take some of the funds raised by their dinners &dues to supplement $ trapping with bounty on these predators .S.D.does not have a problem with its pheasant population as predators removed quickly on sight as pheasants are a cash supplement for the state.:bowdown:

In 1958 the PA Game Commission’s bounty on foxes and Great Horned Owls was $4.00 and $5.00 respectively, a good incentive when kids were mowing lawns for 25 cents and some factory workers were paid $40./week. Coyotes and fishers weren’t around then and many boys and men trapped for extra money. Raccoons, possums, mink, weasels, foxes, skunks among the nest raiders. Turkeys were pretty scarce and only in the wildest and most remote forested areas. Fast forward to today .... if adjusted for inflation those same bounties would be about $44. and $54. respectively. Anyone think the RGS and/or Game Commission would fund equivalent bounties to help restore the grouse population? Better for both to beat the drums and get people to be doing bs habitat improvement instead of addressing the real issues.

[Dean Romig]

Not a chance Frank…!





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[Jim McKee]

Seems strange when our grouse began declining in the early 1990s, the turkey population began increasing.
The several locations where I hunted over the years held good numbers of grouse but in the early 1990s every place I used to find grouse, the entire hillsides were raked clean by turkeys.
Turkeys in our state are a cash crop for ODNR. Grouse is not a cash crop therefore our ODNR does not care about restoration. The stocking of pheasants is slow changing/reducing- not a cash crop
Yes all the predators have increased, but we are not allowed to legally remove some/many of the species -especially avian
until that changes our game birds will continue to be in trouble

[John Allen]

One of the few places in the mid south that you can still find a few quail is on the Tennessee Kentucky border. There is a community of Menonites there that still farm with horses and shoot anything that gets after their chickens. They farm with limited use of pesticides and still have overgrown fence rows. I have a friend who has permission to hunt some of their land and he and his dogs can still find a few wild coveys. What we are fighting is a combination of habitat loss,modern farming practice, and too many predators.

[Stephen Hodges]

Dean, your turkey decline must have been a sudden event. According to the Vt Fish and Game last years season, 2023, was the second highest on record for Vermont. Is the decline just in your area or the whole state of Vt? We had a minor decline in this springs turkey harvest compared to the past five years. It is attributed to the very bad nesting conditions we experienced last spring and summer with very poor poult survival. Or kill is usually comprised of 25% jakes and 75% toms. This years kill was 14% jakes, a sign that we were missing last years poults.

[Daryl Corona]

One of the few places in the mid south that you can still find a few quail is on the Tennessee Kentucky border. There is a community of Menonites there that still farm with horses and shoot anything that gets after their chickens. They farm with limited use of pesticides and still have overgrown fence rows. I have a friend who has permission to hunt some of their land and he and his dogs can still find a few wild coveys. What we are fighting is a combination of habitat loss,modern farming practice, and too many predators.

Bingo! That has been my experience here in Maryland. Our eastern shore used to be plentiful with wild coveys of quail and then in the late 80's the farming practices changed over night and within a few years the quail were gone. Our DNR also transplanted wild turkeys here and I'm sure they didn't help things as they exploded in numbers and would kill and eat anything, including quail eggs and chicks Change sucks..

[Stan Hillis]

There is yet another avian predator that is not a raptor. It's the African Cattle Egret. They moved into Georgia in the 60s, as I recall. They quickly reproduced by the millions. They stay in colonies and fly to roost in late afternoon after foraging all day. They are especially attracted to farm tractors because they stir up grasshopper, other insects and small reptiles, frogs and bird chicks.

They can be ferocious predators. I've seen, more than once while discing overgrown fields, or inverting peanuts in the fall, a circle of these birds about 6-8 feet in diameter and consisting of maybe 10-12 birds, have a big timber rattler encircled and waiting for the chance to kill it. They feed on anything they can swallow. Rats, mice, snakes, quail chicks, and numerous insects are all tableware for them.

I believe strongly they are another reason for the quail decline in the South. I've often seen them kill a quail chick and swallow it whole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_egret

[Daryl Corona]

There is yet another avian predator that is not a raptor. It's the African Cattle Egret. They moved into Georgia in the 60s, as I recall. They quickly reproduced by the millions. They stay in colonies and fly to roost in late afternoon after foraging all day. They are especially attracted to farm tractors because they stir up grasshopper, other insects and small reptiles, frogs and bird chicks.

They can be ferocious predators. I've seen, more than once while discing overgrown fields, or inverting peanuts in the fall, a circle of these birds about 6-8 feet in diameter and consisting of maybe 10-12 birds, have a big timber rattler encircled and waiting for the chance to kill it. They feed on anything they can swallow. Rats, mice, snakes, quail chicks, and numerous insects are all tableware for them.

I believe strongly they are another reason for the quail decline in the South. I've often seen them kill a quail chick and swallow it whole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_egret

If they are an invasive species then those circling birds would make for some sporty shooting with a .410:bigbye: