SBT - What are you thoughts..

[David Safris]

Hello,
This has been in the family a good long time along with some other Parkers. I am just in the process of sending in information to get information from the club.. I wish I had done this years ago - while I am waiting I thought I would see what information I could get here with some pictures.

[John Davis]

You have what appears to be an exceptionally nice SA grade Parker SBT. There were only approximately 35 made in this grade, so it is a fairly rare gun. Great gun and you should be proud to own it.

[Bill Murphy]

A great gun. Is there a name we could reference to help with documenting the shooting history of its owner? Thanks.

[David Safris]

Thank you Mr Davis for the reply - i had used the research tools a number of times over the years and could never find something quite like it - I have marveled at this gun and a few others for many years - It would have spent maybe the last 60 or so years in small town Nebraska. I think my grandfather was competing in Southern NE in the 1950's , 60's after exiting the service. Last name Carstens. He was associated with the shooting club in Beatrice , NE for many years. I am a hunter but never done any competition shooting.

edited -- I should add - I do not think he used this for competition.. He had a number of other guns that I think we more heavily / frequently used than this which I believe was more of a prized possession than something he used

[John Davis]

It truly is a marvel and something to cherish.

[Dan Steingraber]

Stunning example of a high grade SBT. Made in a run of 4 SBT’s (179317-179320) first 3 with 32” barrels, including yours and the last with 30” barrels. Very special gun.

[GunnerGrilli]

Beautiful SBT David!! WOW!!! I would love to see it in person. Thank you for sharing with us. What a gun.



Bobby

[David Safris]

You all have provided me more information in 2 hours than i have known for 50 years. I appreciate the feedback. Here are a couple of additional photos. I wonder about the engraving... maybe solved when I get information from the build sheet -- original owner maybe ? was this done at the time of build or added later ? The gun is not without blemishes .. I am sure it was used at some point and likely tossed in the back of a truck and hauled out to the field. everything was a tool back then .. no special cabinets or safes etc.. shotguns were leaned up behind the back door ready to go to the field.

[GunnerGrilli]

That is an early SA. Made in 1917. First year of production for the Parker SBT.



Bobby

[Brian Dudley]

A letter should be gotten on that gun. The stock looks original. And if it is, the letter should mention the cheek piece. And it would be one of the few surviving examples of a factory cheek piece.

[Chuck Bishop]

Only question I have is the case colors on the sides of the action and action flats. Quite a lot of pink colors. Hard to tell colors on a highly engraved gun. Hope its not cyanide colors. Even if it has cyanide colors, it's quite a gun.

[Brian Dudley]

They are cyanide colors, so at least those have been redone on the gun at one time. Yes, it is hard to see with all of the engraving, but the water table is clear as can be.

[J. Scott Hanes]

David your SA is fabulous! The only problem is that your thread has about ruined several computers from all the saliva dripping from the mouths of the respondents! That is one great Parker and it just shows that there are still great guns just sitting around waiting for someone to take an interest. Many on here are interested in this one!!

[J. Scott Hanes]

David, are the initials on the grip cap your father's?

[David Safris]

Thank you all for your input. The documentation request is in the mail and I will report back when I have that information.

The guns were collected by my grandfather. He was not a wealthy person at all and I would guess these were his most valued possessions. I shot a few of the SxS guns at times with him in the 1980's - I do not believe they have been used since and likely have not seen the light of day but a couple of times in the last 30+ years. I am honored by you all taking interest in this gun.

I think he would get a good laugh out of being the old country lawyer showing up to a gun show in his barely running Chrysler with a German Short Hair riding shotgun and a layer of dog hair and dirt so thick in the car you could hardly tell the interior color. But out of that car he would pull this gun and maybe another and give a little smile and say - oh its just something i had behind the door.

He was a great man from a great generation. Here is a picture of my other favorite gun from my little collection.. Taken in Alsace France December 1944.

[David Safris]

David, are the initials on the grip cap your father's?

This gun would have been made around the time my grandfather was born. So there is no chance this is original to our family. The initials do not match to anyone I can think of. He grew up on a farm in rural Nebraska and I dont think they had the money to buy a chicken let alone a fancy shot gun. After WWII he had a law practice in a small town and made enough to get by. I wish i had him write a story about each gun and how he came to own them .. but that is lost to time. My mom knows a little about the guns but nothing more than family stories. I can only imagine he was buying them from Field & Stream ads or something like that. I have no memory of him every traveling to a gun show out of state. But I he was most passionate about Parker guns and knew exactly the quality and importance of the guns. That part of it was very deliberate..

[John Davis]

He had a good eye for guns.

[Randy Davis]

David... I looked through some old Trapshooting average books to see if I could find a listing for your grandfather, Fred Carstens. The only Carstens I found listed was a Charles from Wisner NE. (shooting in the late 20`s-early 30`s) Thanks for sharing the photos of your "great" Parker Trap gun and history of your grandfather...

Randy Davis

[Steve Cambria]

Gaawwwddddd, how I love these "out-of-the-woodwork" tales!! My kingdom for a DGJ redivivus!!

David, your grandad was a "Hellcat," a member of one, kick-ass armored division that fought from Southern France all the way to Berlin. I'm betting a month after that photo was taken he was in the fight of his life, waist-deep in the Battle of Herrlisheim (Google it) where an entire tank battalion from the 12th Armored Div. vanished from existence.

Another engrossing tale like countless others courtesy of the Greatest Generation. One day, a Nebraska farm boy, a few months later he's on an epic, momentous crusade to obliterate the most depraved, evil-minded race the world has ever known. Thanks for the morning goosebumps!! And oh, BTW, a beautiful Parker to boot!!

[GunnerGrilli]

David... I looked through some old Trapshooting average books to see if I could find a listing for your grandfather, Fred Carstens. The only Carstens I found listed was a Charles from Wismer NE. (shooting in the late 20`s-early 30`s) Thanks for sharing the photos of your "great" Parker Trap gun and history of your grandfather...

Randy Davis


Randy, is that Wisner, NB? I don't see a Wismer.............let me know. Thanks!!


Bobby

[GunnerGrilli]

Sorry, Wisner, NE, not NB. Typing faster than I can keep up..............



Thanks,


Bobby

[David Safris]

Thank you @tool Man - You are well informed on the Hellcats. I wrote a book about my experience with my grandfather regarding his war experiences and life in small town NE. If you like to read it is on Amazon 'A Grandson's Story - Beatrice, NE' - a Parker even gets a mention in a chapter. He was in the 493rd and 494th Armored Field Artillery. I have their post event assessment of Herrlisheim . If you watched band of brothers - at the end when they liberate the camp -- that was also 12th AD - as you said - from a small farm to the front row of the biggest mess in human history - and he stayed on for war crimes as an attorney prosecuting cases. He lived quite a life - these Parkers mean a lot to me.

[David Safris]

Back to the gun - I took some additional photos of the wood work with more natural light coming in the window. The wood is just fantastic.

One note about this gun - Mr Dudley mentioned the cheek piece on the stock - This is an important detail because my grandfather was left handed. He was particular about this - other guns he used regularly had after market cheek rests - leather sleeves or in one case seemingly glued on the stock for left handed shooting -

So this is a longer 32' - with a right handed stock - and that leads me to believe purchased more as a collectible than something to use.

I went to a higher source (my mom) and she confirmed - no way anyone had funds to be buying special shotguns before the late 1940's or early 1950's.

[John Davis]

The wood is outstanding!

[J. Scott Hanes]

For those members well-studied on script lettering, are the initials on the grip cap (top to bottom) C J L or C F L?

[Mike Franzen]

Great SBT David. I hope you will share the information you receive in your letter. I think a gun like that had to be for someone special. Maybe we’ll find out who.

[David Safris]

Hi all, a few quick weeks have gone by and I have received the letter from The PGCA.

Parker shotgun, serial number 179319, was ordered by Wm. Read & Sons, Inc. of Boston, MA of September 4, 1918 and shipped on November 20, 1918. According to Parker Bros. Order Book No. 99, it was a SA grade, Single Barrel Trap Gun, 12-guage. It featured fluid steel barrels with a length of 32 inches. Special instructions were: cheek piece, 2 Lyman sights, Silvers rubber butt, and to pattern to fill a 30'' circle at 35 yards and to shoot as high as can.

The price was $275.00

According to Parker Bros. Stock Book No. 63, the stock configuration was a capped pistol grip and its specifications were: Length of pull: 14 1/2'' , Drop at Comb, 1 1/8'' , Drop at Heel : 1 3/4'', weight : 7 pounds and 12 ounces.


It amazing to have this resource and get this original information. I wonder what the experts here can glean from this.


a few questions if anyone has input: fluid steel barrels? i found a post that this was the early description of Vulcan ? Gun says ACME .. Silvers rubber butt ? Is the pattern request unique ? I found the 'shoot as high as can.' interesting.. this leads me to believe they ordered the gun for a specific shooter - and not just something to have in the shop.

The other VH guns I have from that period were in the $60 range - so someone was willing to pay 4X that for a special gun. That is pretty impressive- or possibly that was the price to the reseller and the end customer paid even more ?

Anyone know if WM Read & Sons knows who the guns went to when sold / guessing that is lost to time at this point.

Last thought - I would appreciate any thoughts on proper care and servicing of this gun to ensure it is preserved properly going forward.

-David

[GunnerGrilli]

Hi David,


What I find most interesting is this Parker should have been made in 1917, not late 1918, so I am wondering if someone else originally ordered this gun and it sat for awhile? A Silver's Pad is common table fare for the day, and is the pad we are most likely to see as original on this gun. Early Parker SBT Barrels were Titanic, although not clearly marked on the side of the barrel as later SBT's. ACME are the most common Barrels, and occasionally we have seen some Peerless Barrels on Highter Grade SBT's. This is a very early SA, not sure why they stated "fluid steel barrels" in place of ACME. But the ACME Barrel you have is correct for the gun.

In regards to proper care and service of the gun, it looks to be in impeccable condition to me, and I would say whatever someone has done in the last 106 years is the way to go!!


Thanks for sharing the info gleaned from your letter. Always appreciated.



Bobby

[John Davis]

David, as to the requested shot pattern and point of impact (POI), those specifications are exactly what a trap shooter would be looking for. In trap you are always shooting at a rising target that’s going to be an average of 35 yards out when you pull the trigger. And farther if you are shooting handicap. A gun that throws a good tight pattern at 35 yards and shoots high is ideal.

[David Safris]

Thank you Bobby & John - great information.

I guess it is worth considering that USA entered WWI in 1917 -possibly some guys that thought they would be trap shooting ended up with a bigger task.

I have been inspired by this gun to get out with a buddy and shoot some trap and skeet this summer. Purchasing a SC SBT to shoot - as this SA is a bit too special for me to bang around with as a rookie - if I hit some targets with regularity this summer maybe by fall i'll give this one a try. I have shot Skeet a few times with my field gun and I would not say i was a natural ! much harder than it looks.

[John Davis]

David, you have a wonderful gun. I think I could probably hit a target or two with her. Good luck and shoot a round of trap with that SA. John

[Chuck Bishop]

Bobby, have you seen SBT guns with Titanic barrels? There is no reference to barrel steel in either the order books or stock books. They only reference "Trap" and the grade such as 4 (Trap-4) I'm guessing that Acme was used for most grades but possibly Peerless for the top grades? Since the name of the barrel steel isn't mentioned, I just put in "fluid steel". Can't go wrong with that! The gun was definitely made in 1918, not 1917 according to the order book. The gun was definitely made to shoot high as indicated by the stock dimensions. Most Parker SBT's are 1 1/2" at comb, 2" at heel, and 14 1/2" length of pull as default. Who ever owned this gun probably was very quick to the target.

[J. Scott Hanes]

This SA probably would be a fantastic Long Yardage Handicap gun. I'll bet that DAC would print at least 10" above POA at 27 yards.