20 bore lifter

[Dirk Schimmel]

I’m looking to see if my research is correct and add to it on this gun. It’s a 16 ga under lifter. It’s not in the best shape, barrels are off face and in need of sleeving. I am looking to learn more about it. I’m not very knowledgeable about Parker’s.

Here is what I have found that I believe to be correct so far. Feel free to correct and add to this.

Ser# 15601 so a mfg date of 1879
0 frame as it’s 1” between the firing pins
16 bore and 28” barrels
O grade or U? This one I’m totally not sure of.

Here are some pictures.
Thank you!
https://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1108&pictureid=14932
https://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1108&pictureid=14945
https://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1108&pictureid=14944
https://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1108&pictureid=14943
https://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1108&pictureid=14942
https://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1108&pictureid=14936
https://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1108&pictureid=14935
https://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1108&pictureid=14934
https://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1108&pictureid=14933

[edgarspencer]

I'm pretty sure thats a Grade 2. Why do you think the barrels need sleeving?
BTW, the book says that it's a 16ga.

[Dirk Schimmel]

Edgar,
Thank you! The book is correct. I was wrong. I did not measure the bores and went off what I was told. Never even questioned it… You would think I’d know better.

The bores look like a sewer pipe with very heavy pitting.

[Dave Noreen]

What does the rib legend state? If it says "Damascus Steel" it that would confirm at least a Grade 2, in this case a Quality-G. The skeleton steel butt is normally seen on Grade 3 and higher.

[Dirk Schimmel]

Rib says Laminated Steel.

[Aaron Beck]

That looks like the Parker forged laminated steel

[David Noble]

That is a great gun you have there. Everything checks out to the book.
Have the barrels measured by a professional gunsmith, one who is knowledgeable in shotgun barrels. If the barrels are thick enough in the eight to ten inches ahead of the chambers it's possible that area could be honed enough to remove a great deal of the pitting and still have enough strength for shooting reduced pressure loads. I personally feel that would be of more benefit than sleeving.

[Dean Romig]

Yes, that P on the right barrel flat indicates it has Parker-made Laminated Steel barrels. Those (P) barrels made by Parker Bros. in their own factory are the ONLY known composite barrels ever made by Parker Bros. All other composite barrels Parker used were imported from England or Belgium. There were only between 250 - 350 guns of various grades ever made with these barrels.

Yes, it is a 16 gauge made on the lightened 0-frame size. I have a 16 gauge in Grade 3 18719 - also on a lightened 0-frame. I also have a 12 gauge Grade 3 Lifter on the 2-frame with the same barrels.


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[todd allen]

Dirk, your gun definitely looks like a fixer to me.
My thoughts are to do just enough to make it a shooter, and leave the rest of the gun as is.

[Stan Hoover]

Dirk,

Please let a professional take a look that is knowledgeable on Damascus/composite barrels before making a decision on doing anything.
Parker manufactured Laminate barrels are not real common and are unique, meaning desirable in my opinion.

Stan

[Daniel Carter]

Do not know if you have heavily cleaned the barrels, by heavily i mean soaked with solvent , brushed and again. Then use a tornado brush or some other stiff brush with lead remover solvent and do it again. I have had a number of vintage barrels that looked like a mile of bad road because only a cursory run a patch through cleaning had ever been done leaving a hundred years of leading to accumulate. Have had some surprising results, not perfect barrels but much better than first thought.

[Dean Romig]

Above all don't use anything abrasive in the bores, or anywhere else on your gun.

My personal choice, though others may offer different products, is Big 45 Frontier Pads on a ramrod with a solvent like Hoppe's, chucked up in a cordless drill to clean up the bores. The Frontier Pads can also be used on external metal parts and will NOT damage blueing, case colors, or Damascus finishes.





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[edgarspencer]

It's refreshing to see gems like this coming out of the woodwork, instead of the same guns just getting recycled from one collector to another.

[Ryan Brege]

Dirk,

I think the best option here is to verify that the barrels are safe to shoot, become a forum member and put this in the for sale section so I can buy it!

Ryan

[Daryl Corona]

It's refreshing to see gems like this coming out of the woodwork, instead of the same guns just getting recycled from one collector to another.

I think you have it backwards. The guns are just recycling the owners. They will be here long after we are gone.

[keavin nelson]

If the bores prove an issue after proper cleaning and measuring for wall thickness, an option is to have it tubed by Briley in 28ga. I did this on a similar 16 and like the result very much. I wouldn't sleeve those barrels.

[Craig Larter]

It's refreshing to see gems like this coming out of the woodwork, instead of the same guns just getting recycled from one collector to another.

Edgar I agree it's always nice to see fresh Parkers surface. It's what keeps us hunting. The BH I bought recently was in the same family for 104 years.

[edgarspencer]

The northwestern part of CT, Litchfield County, is an area known for old money. I often find myself thinking as I drive past some of those old homes "I wonder what's tucked away in that attic".

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Edgar, I had an old house on the farm that I had a contractor take down circa 1900, I also kept the one that was built in 1840 the contractor found an old hammer gun in what remained of the corn crib, he called me and said he put it in the fork of a tree next to where the crib had been, It was a week before I could get to look for it Looked many times never found it .Often wondered what brand of gun it was, Gary

[Arthur Shaffer]

If the bores prove an issue after proper cleaning and measuring for wall thickness, an option is to have it tubed by Briley in 28ga. I did this on a similar 16 and like the result very much. I wouldn't sleeve those barrels.

I bought a DH 16 on an O frame without the lightening cuts that had been totally redone at great expense (stock, new finish etc) that had 28 gauge non-Briley tubes installed even though the barrels were mirrors and wall thickness was good. Some people were and are very conservative as to safety and protection of the survivability of the gun. Everyone has to make their own decision. My choice would be to thoroughly clean the barrels and measure. If it appears there is sufficient metal I would have the barrels honed or bored.The cost is not great.I just had a 12 gauge set of P barrels bored and chokes adjusted for around $350. I have done several myself over the years and a little rebore will go a long way in cleaning up a barrel. You may opt for tubes anyway to protect the gun and your peace of mind. I have a G 12 and a D 10 with Parker Laminate barrels and they should be saved if at all possible, especially in a smallbore.

[John Cleveland]

Dirk,

I agree with David Noble, get it checked out for low pressure shells.

I have an uplift hammer 12Ga made the same year. It was in HORRIBLE shape, MUCH worse than yours. My journey of restoration can be seen in this thread: https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32865. As one forum member framed it, it is a story of resurrection likened to Lazarus.

This forum helped me find a great restoration gunsmith in Ellijay, Ga, about an hour away from me. He measured and checked the barrels and proofed them with RST low pressure shells, even though the barrels looked awful inside from shooting black powder and little if any cleaning, YEARS ago (My dad found it in the attic of an old house he bought before I was born; I am 75). I hunted with it yesterday and looked down the barrels as I cleaned it up. They are not mirror clean, but it is quite notable that a couple of seasons of shooting has cleaned up a significant part of the junk. They are still not what a collector would look for, but neither is the gun, since it is a restoration, though a good one, and it is much more presentable. I don't have before pictures of the insides, but I hope to get access to a borescope and document the current condition.

Explore the low pressure option before going to sleeves.

Somewhat related, I have seen discussions here of using "Big 45 Frontier Metal Cleaner", a specialized analog to bronze wool, to also clean the inside of old barrels. I have not tried it, because I would like to get confirmation of its safety for old Damascus barrels. As gentle as it is on bluing, I suspect that it would be ok---But I want to make sure. If anyone here can speak to this, it may be also helpful for your project. I plan to post a separate thread on the question.

[John Cleveland]

"Somewhat related, I have seen discussions here of using "Big 45 Frontier Metal Cleaner", a specialized analog to bronze wool, to also clean the inside of old barrels. I have not tried it, because I would like to get confirmation of its safety for old Damascus barrels. As gentle as it is on bluing, I suspect that it would be ok---But I want to make sure. If anyone here can speak to this, it may be also helpful for your project. I plan to post a separate thread on the question.[/QUOTE]"

OOPS, I had not seen that Dean had addressed the Big 45 question in an earlier reply. Apologies for having not seen it.

So, Dean, I take it that you can vouch for this being safe for Damascus? If so, i plan to try it out, but not sure about using a drill over hand strokes.

[Dean Romig]

I can certainly vouch for Big 45 Frontier pads as completely harmless to Damascus patterns, color case hardened frames, and blued barrels. It also works nicely wrapped around the copper/brass/bronze cleaning brush on a rod and chucked up in an electric drill.
It always works best when used with a solvent or oil. In other words, don’t use it dry.





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[John Cleveland]

Dean, thanks for the tip about using a solvent. To clean, it used to be just use Hoppe’s 9. Now I see a number of bore cleaners from Hoppe’s Foaming Bore Cleaner, Hoppe’s Black, Hoppe’s Elite, Thompson’s T17 Foaming Bore Cleaner, and many others. Then there is stalwart WD40 and CLP as lube. Any suggestion for what is best for old black powder deposits to use with the Big 45? Are there any caveats for using some of them in Damascus?

[John Cleveland]

BTW, I got to look through a borescope at my barrels. Of course there are pits, patches of what I assume to be old black powder deposits, and tiny bits of the yellow RST plastic (this was right after a hunt before any cleaning). With any forethought I shouldn’t have been, however, I was surprised at how the Damascus patterning stood out on the clear areas of the barrel. Instead of the smooth surface of the pattern on the outside, it appears that the pattern has a slight 3D texture like a fingerprint, with ridges and hollows following the swirls of the Damascus pattern. I guess this is the result of years of exposure to the corrosive effects of black powder starting in 1879, shooting maybe into the 1940’s and then years sitting, probably not properly cleaned. Of course, this is through a scope that magnifies everything, so I don’t know how much the texture would be obvious to the naked eye if exposed. It will be interesting to see how much of the deposits come off with the Big 45.

[Dean Romig]

Dean, thanks for the tip about using a solvent. To clean, it used to be just use Hoppe’s 9. Now I see a number of bore cleaners from Hoppe’s Foaming Bore Cleaner, Hoppe’s Black, Hoppe’s Elite, Thompson’s T17 Foaming Bore Cleaner, and many others. Then there is stalwart WD40 and CLP as lube. Any suggestion for what is best for old black powder deposits to use with the Big 45? Are there any caveats for using some of them in Damascus?

I will say that the Hoppe’s solvent that dissolves copper fouling will harm Damascus barrel finishes… and possibly case color as well. Be very careful of the solvents you use. Straight ol Hoppe’s No. 9 is all I would use. As a lubricant and protective product I only use Ballistol.





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[Arthur Shaffer]

Dirk,

Please let a professional take a look that is knowledgeable on Damascus/composite barrels before making a decision on doing anything.
Parker manufactured Laminate barrels are not real common and are unique, meaning desirable in my opinion.

Stan

Amen to that! Do everything you can to save those barrels. They are much to rare in any gauge but especially a small bore (and good looking when cleaned up) to not save them. The butt plate and stock looks like a D grade. You might look under the trigger guard and see if the serial number of the stock matches the frame. There looks to be a couple of small gaps around the tang, and someone may have swapped a stock at one time.

If you don't keep the barrels, try and find another set to fit. The barrels you have will be purchased by someone if for nothing else than to refinish and run Briley 28 gauge inserts.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Dirk

Here are a couple of pictures of what the barrels would look like refinished. You can see why every one thinks, especially with their rarity, why they should be saved.