No Serial Number, can’t sell in Colorado:

[Bruce P Bruner]

I took half a dozen disposable shotguns to town yesterday to put on consignment. They couldn’t legally accept the oldest SxS. It is my J. Smith Bar in Wood Crab Knuckle. Can’t sell a firearm in Colorado without a serial number. Even though it is an antique from the 1870’s it cannot be consigned for sale. So, I suppose I’ll have my smith stamp some random number on the water table. How many ways can something be “infringed” for something that “Shall Not Be Infringed”?

[Ken Hill]

An 1870s gun doesn’t require a transfer. I don’t think the ATF cares about the gun since it is pre-1899. Is this the gunshop rule or a real CO law?

Ken

[Bruce P Bruner]

Yes, I was told any centerfire firearm regardless of age requires a serial number for transfer. All firearms consigned require “log in”. The only exception are cap fired muzzle loaders. I could legally ship the gun myself but I can’t stomach the uncertainty's of shipping.

[Steve Huffman]

Yes, I was told any centerfire firearm regardless of age requires a serial number for transfer. All firearms consigned require “log in”. The only exception are cap fired muzzle loaders. I could legally ship the gun myself but I can’t stomach the uncertainty's of shipping.

You can ship a cap lock but not a flintlock?:shock:

[Bruce P Bruner]

You can ship a cap lock but not a flintlock?:shock:

My error, flintlock arms are not considered firearms.
Government: “Hold my beer”.

[Bill Murphy]

ATF considers guns such as yours "not a gun", and frowns on anyone littering their books with them. I don't think any state can mandate entering such guns in a licensee's bound book.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I'm a little confused. Anything older than1898 is not defined as a firearm by ATF. Is this a Colorado only law? I don't think they can possibly dictate issues pertaining to official ATF documentation rules. The law on its face would force violation of federal rules. They may be able to pass a law that doesn't interfere with a federal rule, but I see no way they could require documentation in a book that is required by ATF rules and doesn't allow the entry.

[Bruce P Bruner]

ATF considers guns such as yours "not a gun", and frowns on anyone littering their books with them. I don't think any state can mandate entering such guns in a licensee's bound book.

I can tell you that these three antiques went into their books:
Syracuse, NY pre-1887 LC Smith Quality 3 double.
Pre-1890 W&C Scott double.
JP Clabrough serial number 970.

It could be simply a store policy to enter everything into the book. I was told it was Colorado law that all firearms are required to have a serial number to transfer. There are many shotguns manufactured without serial numbers. My Stevens double certainty doesn’t have one.

[CraigThompson]

I can tell you that these three antiques went into their books:
Syracuse, NY pre-1887 LC Smith Quality 3 double.
Pre-1890 W&C Scott double.
JP Clabrough serial number 970.

It could be simply a store policy to enter everything into the book. I was told it was Colorado law that all firearms are required to have a serial number to transfer. There are many shotguns manufactured without serial numbers. My Stevens double certainty doesn’t have one.

We enter everything DEEMED post 1898 in the book and if no number it goes in as “NVSN” . We get audited by an ATF person now it seems yearly and they’re fine with “NVSN” . Now that’s Federal , we’re in Virginia and you’re in Colorado so I would assume that’s a state thing .

[Larry Stauch]

Breaking Down Colorado’s New Anti-Ghost Gun Law
Beginning January 1, 2024, every gun in Colorado must have a serial number. If you own a firearm that does not have a serial number, you can get it serialized by a licensed Colorado gun dealer.

Senate Bill 279, signed into law by Governor Jared Polis on June 2, 2023, closes a loophole that allowed people to own and purchase so-called “ghost guns,” which can be assembled at home. Ghost guns are unregistered and untraceable by law enforcement.

Recent shootings involving ghost guns in Colorado and across the nation have heightened awareness about the dangers posed by these firearms. According to the ATF, the use of ghost guns in crimes has risen 1000 percent since 2017.

What Is a Ghost Gun?
Breaking Down Colorado’s New Anti-Ghost Gun LawGun frames or receivers include essential components that allow a firearm to function, including the barrel and firing mechanism. Federal law requires gun manufacturers to put serial numbers on frames and receivers.

Although the law requires manufacturers to place serial numbers on firearms, the federal government doesn’t regulate most gun parts. This loophole makes it possible for people to own ghost guns, which can be assembled at home from kits or using a 3D-printed. These firearms don’t have a serial number.

Ghost guns make it possible for people to evade background checks when purchasing a firearm. They also prevent law enforcement officials from tracking a gun’s origins.

The new Colorado law includes the following provisions:

A mandatory three-day waiting period for all gun purchases
Raises the minimum age for buying guns from 18 to 21
Designates machine gun conversion devices as “dangerous weapon”
Prohibits knowingly possessing, selling, receiving, offering to sell, or transporting unfinished gun frames or receivers without a serial number
Prohibits knowingly selling, receiving, offering to sell, transferring, purchasing, or owning a firearm that is not imprinted with a serial number
Expands red flag laws that allow teachers, prosecutors, and medical professionals to petition a judge for the temporary seizure of someone’s firearms
Strict New Ghost Gun Penalties
Federal law prohibits dealers from selling firearms to felons and people deemed mentally unfit to own a gun. Colorado law restricts gun ownership for anyone convicted of a violent misdemeanor in the last five years, and court orders relating to domestic violence or a serious mental condition may also restrict gun rights.

Ghost guns allow people who would be legally unable to purchase a firearm to evade a background check. These devices generally cost around $500, but they may be purchased for less than $200.

Ghost guns were involved in the Club Q shooting in Colorado Springs that resulted in five fatalities and the East High School shooting, where the shooter was 17 years old.

If you own a firearm that doesn’t have a serial number, you must get it serialized by a registered gun dealer no later than January 1, 2024. Dealers are required to run a background check before serializing a firearm.

Unlawful conduct involving an unsterilized firearm is a class 1 misdemeanor, carrying a penalty of up to 364 days in jail.

Subsequent offenses are a class 5 felony, carrying up to three years in jail.

The new law also prohibits the Colorado Bureau of Investigation from approving a firearm transfer to a person convicted of a misdemeanor for unlawful conduct involving an unserialized firearm, frame, or receiver in the last five years.

[Brian Dudley]

There are plenty of firearms made in the C&R era without serial numbers. A lot of them are single shot shotguns or .22 plinker rifles.

Heck serial numbers were not even required until the gun control act of 1968. Prior to that serial numbering would be for the manufacturers purposes only.


If that really is the case in CO, they really missed the ball on that one.

[Bill Murphy]

I didn't read Larry's entire post, but as Brian says, there are tens of thousands of guns without serial numbers and the ATF only requires NVSN, not a stamping of a new number. ATF doesn't want "non guns" to litter their bound books.

[Larry Stauch]

Obviously, this law and others like it are not pointed at the antiques and C&Rs out there. They're focused on the black gun crowd and all others just get painted with that brush. If you think the states like Kalifornia, New York, Illinois and Colorado are passing these gun laws to please we sportsman, hunters, shooters and collectors they are not. They are doing just the opposite to harass all gun owners and provide as much discouragement as possible, hoping we'll all think it's too much trouble to own a gun and give them up; IMHO...

BTW, I just copied that off of some attorney's web site.

[Bruce P Bruner]

Considering that every non-serialized firearm will require serialization and a background check, it seems to be a huge inconvenience and a money grab.
What’s stopping me from purchasing at stamp set and dreaming up a number? It’s obviously less expensive. I can invent a number just as well a “smith”.

[Brian Dudley]

Well, federally, you cannot just stamp a serial number. It is illegal to alter a numner or put one on it unless you are a manufacturer or you apply to the ATF for a serial number and they provide you with one.

And regarding NICS checks, they are done by a dealer regardless of if there is a serial number or not. It is if any firearm is sold. And the serial number is not communicated to the NICS at any time of the process.

[CraigThompson]

Obviously, this law and others like it are not pointed at the antiques and C&Rs out there. They're focused on the black gun crowd and all others just get painted with that brush. If you think the states like Kalifornia, New York, Illinois and Colorado are passing these gun laws to please we sportsman, hunters, shooters and collectors they are not. They are doing just the opposite to harass all gun owners and provide as much discouragement as possible, hoping we'll all think it's too much trouble to own a gun and give them up; IMHO...

BTW, I just copied that off of some attorney's web site.

Used to be AR uppers weren’t serialized now if I’m not mistaken the ATF made it necessary for new manufacture uppers to be serialized . Think that came about in the last year or two .

[Jerry Harlow]

From page one and the attorney's website Larry copied:

"Unlawful conduct involving an unsterilized firearm is a class 1 misdemeanor, carrying a penalty of up to 364 days in jail."

So make sure you boil your gun each time before going out.

[Nick de Guerre]

This is assinine. This law should have been written to say "guns made AFTER Jan 1st, 1969, require serial numbers."

NDG

[Mike Poindexter]

Bruce, I have not read the ghost gun legislation, but I did read the 3 day wait period legislation and it exempts anything antique or C&R eligible under federal law. I suspect the ghost gun legislation does also. Most of the gunshops that should know better choose to err on the side of self-preservation and treat all cartridge guns as "firearms" regardless of their age. I took the printed 3 day wait statute down to my LGS and showed them the language, but they wouldn't budge. The Colorado Gun Collectors Assoc. has figured it out, and in order to avoid the 3 day wait period they have restricted sales at the annual show in May to only antiques and C&R eligible guns. I bought a Fox Model B made pre'68 a few years ago and it, of course, had no serial number although there were a bunch of large capital letters factory stamped all over the frame and barrel flats. I just had an antique Lefever F grade shipped directly to my house with no problem either. Bottom line, you are at the mercy of the gunshops for local consignment sales and they are running scared. Sell it on GI or GB and ship it directly to the buyer. Knock wood, I have never had a problem with USPS Priority Mail delivering a long gun, although I always break them down and ship in a compartmented heavy cardboard box. Good luck!

[Mike Poindexter]

Just looked up the text of the bill. As I suspected, antiques under federal law and C&R eligible (although they missed the 50 year provision and went instead with 1968 or prior manufacture) are exempt.. Here is the quoted exemption language from SB 23-279:
(II) THE FIREARM INVOLVED HAS BEEN RENDERED PERMANENTLY
6 INOPERABLE; IS A DEFACED FIREARM, AS DESCRIBED IN SECTION
7 18-12-103; IS AN ANTIQUE FIREARM, AS DEFINED IN 18 U.S.C. SEC. 921
8 (a)(16); OR WAS MANUFACTURED BEFORE OCTOBER 22, 1968.

Like I said, the gunshops that should know better, don't.

[David Noble]

My gun store was undergoing an ATF compliance check about 7 years ago. One of the agents came across an Eli Whitney 32 rimfire revolver made in the 1870’s and asked why it was not not tagged with a bound book number. I explained that it was an antique and was not required to be entered into the bound book. The reply was that by law, if there was ammunition available in the normal channels of business it could not be considered an antique. I replied that you cannot readily buy ammo in that caliber as it hasn’t been manufactured for forty or fifty years. The agent said original ammo is on Gunbroker occasionally, and so it needed to be entered in my books. Trying to argue a point with an ATF agent is rarely worth the outcome. It took me a couple of years to sell the gun because no one, including C&R holders wanted to hassle with doing paperwork and background checks to get it. I ended up selling it at a loss to another dealer. I doubt that dealer logged it into his books, but it got it off of mine.
On a side note, I asked the agent about all the antique Colt SSA’s that were always being offered for sale online and at gun shows and gun stores with no FFL required or background checks. The answer was those were illegal sales.

[Nick de Guerre]

Mike, well done. That explains it...just dumb gun store guys.
I cant recall whether there was an explicit compliance date on the 1968 Act. I do know that I have read that most companies were compliant by Jan 1969.

People often say "pre-1968," when really they should say "pre-1969."

NDG

[John Dallas]

A dealer who posts regularly here tried to point out the numerous mistakes the ATF guy made. Net results - ATF harrassing visits weekly or monthly, to the point that he had to close his full service shop.