Pigeons.....

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Been a long time since I had to dig a few boxes of those out of the cabinet.

Took the Swamp Angel along, she likes those big bullets.

Let's just say it was obvious I hadn't shot any flyers in quite awhile....

Stopped on the way home to pay my respects to Capt. Bogardus and left a token of admiration.

[Stan Hillis]

Well done, Destry.

[Bill Murphy]

Those are beautiful boxes, Destry. How about a picture of the Swamp Angel?

[Garry L Gordon]

Did you stop in at the Wild Hare Cafe? (If it’s still there?)

[Daryl Corona]

Been a long time since I had to dig a few boxes of those out of the cabinet.

Took the Swamp Angel along, she likes those big bullets.

Let's just say it was obvious I hadn't shot any flyers in quite awhile....

Stopped on the way home to pay my respects to Capt. Bogardus and left a token of admiration.

I still have 3/4 of a case (that's 500 for your youngsters) of those Super Pigeon loads and 1/2 case of the Federal Pigeon loads. The Federals were always my favorite but the WW were right behind them.

[Mike Koneski]

Those shells will leave a mark!

[Mike Koneski]

Destry, where's the cemetery?

[Daryl Corona]

Those shells will leave a mark!

The 3 1/4 DE are not that bad when shot in a 8+lb gun. The Federals were softer than the WW. You never notice it when that trap opens and the bird is making a hasty exit to the fence.:cool:

[Dave Noreen]

The box style used 1977 to 81 --

123651

123652

123653

123654

[todd allen]

The 3 1/4 - 1 1/4 load is the Gold Standard, in my humble opinion.
I used to shoot box birds once a week, and did so for quite a few years. Estimated 40,000+ birds over my "career".
My go-to load was the Federal Flyer, or Gold Medal in the above settings, only with #8 shot.
Towards the end of my active pigeon days I switched to an 1 1/8th oz, and never saw any measurable difference.
Shot a 29 x 30 at Eversull's for the championship with that load. Calcutta Day, BTW.
Tight chokes rule!

[todd allen]

I shot quite well at times, though was a somewhat sporadic winner.
Win a few, lose a few. This one was my most memorable win of my career.
This was on Calcutta day, where a 28 got me into a 6 way shoot-off
The club manager saved the score sheet for the shoot-off, and had it set in this frame.
Some might recognize a couple of the names.
123655

[Destry L. Hoffard]

The grave is in Elkhart, Illinois.

I'm a buyer for any and all varieties of live pigeon shells should anybody have some for sale.

[todd allen]

My fantasy has been to collect pigeon guns from all makers and eras. A very unrealistic goal, but a fantasy, non-the-less.
I've owned a few good ones, and sampled quite a few others in 5 bird practice races.
A couple of my favorites from the vintage era: A 32" Parker Trap gun A1-Special that was upgraded by Runge/DelGrego, and then the highly modded GHE that I posted earlier.
Another was a Westley Richards side lock that was owned by this guy that made movies. (Milius)
This was my all time favorite Brit target gun, by far!
I highly lusted after that gun, but my finances were in decline, so had to pass.
There are some pictures of that gun somewhere if I could find them.

[Garry L Gordon]

If you make the pilgrimage to the grave, you should stop in here:

https://www.wildharecafe-elk-il.com/

[CraigThompson]

O shot a little twist on boxbirds Saturday a week ago and will this coming Saturday as well . The gentleman putting the thing on is using quail instead of pigeons . It isn’t as easy as I assumed it would be . I’ve only done boxbirds four or five times of which three were with quail . Colombaire however I find a bit easier , but it matters not I’ll shoot either and happy to do so . At these quail deals that second shot isn’t mandatory . But last week I used a Rio pigeon load in the right barrel and a Fiochi nickel plated in the left barrel . This upcoming shoot I may shoot 1 1/8 ounce target loads in the right barrel .

[CraigThompson]

My fantasy has been to collect pigeon guns from all makers and eras. A very unrealistic goal, but a fantasy, non-the-less.
I've owned a few good ones, and sampled quite a few others in 5 bird practice races.
A couple of my favorites from the vintage era: A 32" Parker Trap gun A1-Special that was upgraded by Runge/DelGrego, and then the highly modded GHE that I posted earlier.
Another was a Westley Richards side lock that was owned by this guy that made movies. (Milius)
This was my all time favorite Brit target gun, by far!
I highly lusted after that gun, but my finances were in decline, so had to pass.
There are some pictures of that gun somewhere if I could find them.

I’ve only used two guns in the ring an actual Parker DH 12 2 frame 32” live bird gun that left the factory safety less and the VHE 12 gauge 1 1/2 frame 32” vent rib Monte Carlo trap gun that left the factory as is . So as you can see I’ve NEVER tried an O/U in the ring although I’d be quite open to a Fabbri or Bosis someone wished to give away :whistle::rotf:

[John Dallas]

Springer puppy field trials used pigeons. That about as tough as live bird shooting can get, IMHO

[todd allen]

The thing that makes box birds so hard is first: you don't know what box they are coming out of.
Second: the birds get an electrical shock at the same time they are ejected out of the box, which gives them a five foot head start.
And third: You have 16 yards to make the kill. Dead over the fence is a lost target.
I missed a 30 straight in Louisiana because one bird died stone cold dead 3 feet over the fence.
I've shot tons of field trials, and even a couple of retriever trials with mallards, and trust me, box birds are a lot tougher!

[Kevin McCormack]

[QUOTE=todd allen;405199]The 3 1/4 - 1 1/4 load is the Gold Standard, in my humble opinion.

Also quite possibly the finest load ever for decoying ducks before the insanity of the steel shot mandate for waterfowl hunting.

[todd allen]

I’ve only used two guns in the ring an actual Parker DH 12 2 frame 32” live bird gun that left the factory safety less and the VHE 12 gauge 1 1/2 frame 32” vent rib Monte Carlo trap gun that left the factory as is . So as you can see I’ve NEVER tried an O/U in the ring although I’d be quite open to a Fabbri or Bosis someone wished to give away :whistle::rotf:
I have shot the Fabbri on birds, and even had a chance to pick one up at a pretty reasonable price.
My friend, and mentor on pigeon shooting offered me a step ribbed Fabbri for $35k, which I should have jumped on. Could have made a hundred grand on that deal, but who knew they would make such a jump in value.
The last I heard that gun sold for 135k, and is now higher than p-tang on a Ferris wheel.
BTW, on a first barrel load, you should try a 1 1/8 oz load, and the standard pigeon load for the second barrel.
Pigeons often require a lightening fast second barrel.

[Garry L Gordon]

I'm sincerely in awe of you folks who shoot -- and have shot -- so much for so many years. If I get 100 shots in a season with today's paucity of birds, I consider that a good year of shooting.

My hat's off to all of you shooters. I have no desire to break clays or shoot pigeons, but I admire those of you who do and who do so with such passion.

[CraigThompson]

I have shot the Fabbri on birds, and even had a chance to pick one up at a pretty reasonable price.
My friend, and mentor on pigeon shooting offered me a step ribbed Fabbri for $35k, which I should have jumped on. Could have made a hundred grand on that deal, but who knew they would make such a jump in value.
The last I heard that gun sold for 135k, and is now higher than p-tang on a Ferris wheel.
BTW, on a first barrel load, you should try a 1 1/8 oz load, and the standard pigeon load for the second barrel.
Pigeons often require a lightening fast second barrel.

I shoot to fast now LOL’s . Sometimes I don’t release the single trigger on my VHE enough to let it reset . Happened twice at the last shoot . Never had this issue at Colombaire , sporting or doubles trap . But in each of those I don’t try to shoot anywhere near as quick . In January of 2023 for boxbird quail I tried 1 1/8 of #8’s in the right barrel and a regular pigeon load in the left and wasn’t pleased . Saturday I’ll try my handload sporting loads which are pretty much the standard 1 1/8 target load in the right barrel and hammer loads in the left .

[Dave Noreen]

I nought a flat of these --

123678

123679

123680

123681

when Morris first introduced them, but I've only lived here twenty years so I'm not well enough vetted here to get an invitation. Guess they will go to Wards when I'm dead.

I'm still looking for a box of Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X, 3-inch, high velocity, Lubaloy Pigeon load they offered from February 1929 --

123682

to May 4,1949 --

123683

[CraigThompson]

I nought a flat of these --

123678

123679

123680

123681

when Morris first introduced them, but I've only lived here twenty years so I'm not well enough vetted here to get an invitation. Guess they will go to Wards when I'm dead.

I'm still looking for a box of Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X, 3-inch, high velocity, Lubaloy Pigeon load they offered from February 1929 --

123682

to May 4,1949 --

123683

I bought some of the RST pigeon loads at Rock Mountain three years ago . Seems to me the ones I had were said to be 1365 fps , I do know they crumpled pigeons very well .

[Dave Noreen]

RST offered the Pigeon loads in 3 1/4-, 3 1/2- & 3 3/4-Drams Equiv.

[Stan Hillis]

Todd, interesting post, regarding the names on the scorecard ....... I've shot flyers with Scotten a few times at Broxton Bridge in SC, and recognize Bonillas, though I never shot with him.

[John Davis]

Destry and I shot box birds twice at the Philadelphia Gun Club overlooking the Delaware River. Most fun I ever had with my clothes on.

[John Dallas]

Shooting trap over the Detroit river at the Bayview yacht club requires that you shoot steel shot

[George Davis]

Todd, I've been every lucky as my kid brother has collected "Live Pigeon" Guns for the last 35 years and we shoot them on a regular bases. He was international pilot hence in Europe on regular bases. My two favorites are a Lefever and hammered Jefferys (only 1 of 6) which has a usual history. Funny side note, he offered to bring his collection to the Whittington Center in New Mexico for display with one stipulation (insurance policy at replacement value) and they wouldn't not agree to his request.

[Bill Murphy]

My pigeon gun collection started when my uncle REAed me my grandfather's dedicated Lefever E Grade pigeon gun around 1958. The gun had been inactive since granddad's death in 1929. He closed his pigeon ring in 1927. My latest pigeon gun is a Daniel Fraser steel barrel hammer gun. I have not seen another like it.

[Bill Murphy]

Parker pigeon guns are a strange lot. No safety is the main feature. Then you have "no extension rib", then the flat rib, but it is a rare gun that has all of these features. I've had most of them on one gun, but never all.

[John Davis]

Shooting trap over the Detroit river at the Bayview yacht club requires that you shoot steel shot

We were required to shoot nontoxic which was provided by the club, at a cost. Not an inexpensive endeavor.

[CraigThompson]

We were required to shoot nontoxic which was provided by the club, at a cost. Not an inexpensive endeavor.

I inquired about getting an invite to the Philadelphia club with some of the guys I shoot with in WVA and it didn’t sound like a very viable option . John correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the dress code there for a boxbird shoot require you to wear a tie ?

[John Davis]

It does. And they had them available for purchase as well.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Shooting at Philly with John was one of the highlights of my "career" as well. I've also shot off the dock at Bayview Yacht Club! It's good to know people who have the money to be members of these institutions so they can invite us poor folks.

John I'll continue to keep you posted on the shoot schedule at this new ring. My shooting has fallen off so badly in the past few years that I'm almost embarrased to pull trigger in front of anybody anymore, but I'd shoot with you anytime as long as there wasn't money involved. Hah!

Destry

[CraigThompson]

Shooting at Philly with John was one of the highlights of my "career" as well. I've also shot off the dock at Bayview Yacht Club! It's good to know people who have the money to be members of these institutions so they can invite us poor folks.



I was also told at Philly during any match the members recieve two mulligans and guests got one mulligan . Was this the case when you guys were there ?

[John Davis]

No mulligans were offered when we shot there.

[John Davis]

When Destry and I were at the Philadelphia Gun Club we shot under the nom de plumes Fred Kimble (me) and Captain A. H. Bogardus (Destry). When you toed the line, they would announce over a loud speaker, "Fred Kimble now at post." The following is an account of the match as published in Parker Pages.


"Philadelphia, Penn., January 10, 2009. Editor Parker Pages: - Epic struggles deserve chronicling, and the battles between Captain A. H. Bogardus and Mr. Fred Kimble are no exception. The story began some three years ago when these two shootists first met on the fields of glory in Sanford, North Carolina. In their initial contest, the good Captain was victorious over a very green Kimble by only a very narrow margin. Their second meeting occurred once again in the spring and on southern grounds. And once again Captain Bogardus proved to be the champion wing shot he claimed to be. The third meeting was a different story, as Kimble managed to best Bogardus by a single clay target after two grueling days toeing the line.

Now a fourth match has taken place. But this time north of the Mason-Dixon line, and with live pigeons. The contest occurred on January 10th last and the purse was $100 and an engraved, sterling silver pocket watch. The match was hosted by the old and venerable Philadelphia Gun Club of that Quaker City and our brothers in arms were the guests of the ever genial Mr. Kaas. The day proved cold and snowy, and the sky gray and heavy.

Both of our heroes were sporting Parker shotguns. Bogardus was shooting a weighty DHE with 32 inch tubes choked improved cylinder and fuller, while Kimble shot his BH, sporting thirty inch barrels choked modified and full. Stationed at the thirty-one yard mark, each pigeon popper faced five traps which overlooked the great Delaware River. This was originally slated as a thirty bird race but was cut to twenty-seven when the pigeons ran short. Kimble led off the match and managed to go five straight before losing his sixth bird, dead, but out of bounds, followed shortly thereafter with a clean miss on number nine. Bogardus placed himself at an immediate disadvantage when he missed his first and third birds, but in true champion form the Captain proceeded to kill his next seventeen straight before missing his twenty-first feathered target. Kimble’s next misses came on birds twenty-two and twenty-three, both being screamers straight out of the box. All was even after Bogardus tripped on his twenty-fourth bird, each man being down four. And even it would stay until the final bird. Kimble finished his round with a clean kill on twenty-seven. It was now Bogardus’ turn at the line. A dead bird would leave the match at a tie; a miss would send Kimble home with the watch and the money. The good Captain called, “Trapper! Ready?” The trapper replied, “Ready.” “Pull,” shouted Bogardus and the bird sprung from the trap. The Captain fired twice and as the smoke cleared the unfortunate pigeon fell dead but out of bounds. Such is life in this game we call pigeon shooting. But there’s always next time, my good Captain. Gaucho"

[Mike Koneski]

Todd, my go to clays gun is a Parker VHE live bird gun, 32", high vent rib and choked F/IC, no safety. It is by far my favorite target gun. I never shot pigeons with it yet but it did do me well on Helice. I also had a 32" Lefever LBG, Damascus, choked F/F, no safety. That gun turned targets into dust clouds. Sold it to a good friend and he enjoys it now.

[Mike Koneski]

I inquired about getting an invite to the Philadelphia club with some of the guys I shoot with in WVA and it didn’t sound like a very viable option . John correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the dress code there for a boxbird shoot require you to wear a tie ?

Oh well, count me out!! :rotf:

[CraigThompson]

Todd, my go to clays gun is a Parker VHE live bird gun, 32", high vent rib and choked F/IC, no safety. It is by far my favorite target gun. I never shot pigeons with it yet but it did do me well on Helice. I also had a 32" Lefever LBG, Damascus, choked F/F, no safety. That gun turned targets into dust clouds. Sold it to a good friend and he enjoys it now.

That vent rib gun sounds like it might be right on time for Colombaire ! My vent gun is full and fuller yet but that’s just cuz I don’t wanna open it up . My friend Alonzo keeps telling me I need a 28-30” gun that’s light mod and full . And if I can ever have a Fabbri or Bosis it may very well be choked that way but it’s gun have a second set of 32” barrels choked tighter than hell in the left and tight as hell in the right .

[Randy Davis]

Champion Live Bird shooters from 1960`s, photo from Harold`s Reno

[Christopher Cefalu]

The Harold's club is legendary here in Reno/Sparks. I'm a bit too young to have shot there but my father won an event at the Harold's Club in the early 70's during the Gold West Grand, a pair of elephant skin cowboy boots (that he still has). My dad tells great stories of watching the "old timers" shot live pigeons there. My dad introduced me to the clay target sports when I was 12 and I shot in the Gold West Grand for many years when it was held a Sage Hill clay sports in Reno until it closed. Both Harold's and Sage Hill are covered in houses and shopping malls now :(.

[Phil Yearout]

I have this pigeon decoy that was made and gifted to me by a chum; barn pigeon shooting is great fun although no money is involved (except for the occasional side bet of course! :)). Story goes that this little fooler was shot over by some pretty well-known gunners...

https://i.imgur.com/hoh2eTpl.jpg

[Stan Hillis]

I've shot flyers and I've shot barn pigeons and I've shot pigeons that responded to a crow call. But I killed more pigeons at one time with a broom stick than I ever did with a gun. That's another story for another time, I guess.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

The only mulligan I ever had was a stew at Boy Scout Camp. Is that what they were supposedly serving at Philly?

[Randy Davis]

Milt Lindsley "Tournament" Shell... 3-3/4 Wood powder 1-1/4 #7`s Made by Eley Brothers for Henry Squires NY. from Interstate Tournament 11-30-1891.

[Bill Murphy]

Craig will attest that, at our club in West Virginia, ties are also worn. When a shooter finishes his five birds at the post, he passes the tie to the next shooter.

[Garry L Gordon]

When Destry and I were at the Philadelphia Gun Club we shot under the nom de plumes Fred Kimble (me) and Captain A. H. Bogardus (Destry). When you toed the line, they would announce over a loud speaker, "Fred Kimble now at post." The following is an account of the match as published in Parker Pages.


"Philadelphia, Penn., January 10, 2009. Editor Parker Pages: - Epic struggles deserve chronicling, and the battles between Captain A. H. Bogardus and Mr. Fred Kimble are no exception. The story began some three years ago when these two shootists first met on the fields of glory in Sanford, North Carolina. In their initial contest, the good Captain was victorious over a very green Kimble by only a very narrow margin. Their second meeting occurred once again in the spring and on southern grounds. And once again Captain Bogardus proved to be the champion wing shot he claimed to be. The third meeting was a different story, as Kimble managed to best Bogardus by a single clay target after two grueling days toeing the line.

Now a fourth match has taken place. But this time north of the Mason-Dixon line, and with live pigeons. The contest occurred on January 10th last and the purse was $100 and an engraved, sterling silver pocket watch. The match was hosted by the old and venerable Philadelphia Gun Club of that Quaker City and our brothers in arms were the guests of the ever genial Mr. Kaas. The day proved cold and snowy, and the sky gray and heavy.

Both of our heroes were sporting Parker shotguns. Bogardus was shooting a weighty DHE with 32 inch tubes choked improved cylinder and fuller, while Kimble shot his BH, sporting thirty inch barrels choked modified and full. Stationed at the thirty-one yard mark, each pigeon popper faced five traps which overlooked the great Delaware River. This was originally slated as a thirty bird race but was cut to twenty-seven when the pigeons ran short. Kimble led off the match and managed to go five straight before losing his sixth bird, dead, but out of bounds, followed shortly thereafter with a clean miss on number nine. Bogardus placed himself at an immediate disadvantage when he missed his first and third birds, but in true champion form the Captain proceeded to kill his next seventeen straight before missing his twenty-first feathered target. Kimble’s next misses came on birds twenty-two and twenty-three, both being screamers straight out of the box. All was even after Bogardus tripped on his twenty-fourth bird, each man being down four. And even it would stay until the final bird. Kimble finished his round with a clean kill on twenty-seven. It was now Bogardus’ turn at the line. A dead bird would leave the match at a tie; a miss would send Kimble home with the watch and the money. The good Captain called, “Trapper! Ready?” The trapper replied, “Ready.” “Pull,” shouted Bogardus and the bird sprung from the trap. The Captain fired twice and as the smoke cleared the unfortunate pigeon fell dead but out of bounds. Such is life in this game we call pigeon shooting. But there’s always next time, my good Captain. Gaucho"

That Gaucho can tell a tale. I thought I was there…and back when.

Thanks!

[todd allen]

That Gaucho can tell a tale. I thought I was there…and back when.

Thanks!
Sounds kinda like last Sunday's Superbowl!

[Destry L. Hoffard]

It's fun to read that again, it has been ages.

I refer to this series of shoots as the times I beat the Georgia State Champion three out of five matches as we shot pigeons again the next year and I emerged victorious.

DLH aka Bogardus

[John Davis]

It's fun to read that again, it has been ages.

I refer to this series of shoots as the times I beat the Georgia State Champion three out of five matches as we shot pigeons again the next year and I emerged victorious.

DLH aka Bogardus

I remain humbled.:bowdown:

[Destry L. Hoffard]

You're too good for me these days, I ain't never shootin' you for money ever again. Hah!

The other day I missed my first four out of five! It was pituful, I shoulda been embarrased, but I was having too much fun.

DLH

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Proof! Me with the silver watch!

After John won the Georgia State I relinquished the watch to him as he had far exceeded any skill I ever had. I think I was prouder of him and his title than he was.

[todd allen]

That's a beautiful ring! Love the background.

[Stan Hoover]

Great picture Destry,

I wish I could say that I have shot at this club!

[Stan Hillis]

I have a copy of an old article written back in the late 70's, I think, where the great pigeon shooter Billy Perdue was interviewed and it was published. I haven't read it in a while but can remember a few choice mentions.

He favored a S X S in a time when they were "out of favor" for flyer matches, and stated his reason for shooting one. He said that flyer shooting is a game of elevation, mostly, and that the first shot at the bird, as it is rising from the trap, is managed more easily with a S X S because the barrels are in clearer view in the out-of-focus field of vision.

There was one particular S X S, that he ordered custom made for himself, with which he had great issues with the regulation of the barrels. He eventually rid himself of it, and a friend of mine owns it. It still has stickers all over the stock from shoots in the USA and abroad. He can't shoot it worth a darn, and I've never had the heart to tell him what is wrong with it. Hope he's not reading this.

My favorite quote of Billy's is what he said when asked how he had been so fortunate as to be able to shoot flyers around the globe for so many years. This is not a direct quote, but close ........ said he: "I was born into money and I never did anything to mess that up".

[John Davis]

Proof! Me with the silver watch!

After John won the Georgia State I relinquished the watch to him as he had far exceeded any skill I ever had. I think I was prouder of him and his title than he was.

Those were the best of times.

[Reggie Bishop]

Very enjoyable thread! Nice shooting attire as well Destry! Is that your 34" gun in the photo?

[Ed Blake]

Thanks for posting. Those Bogardus/Kimble matches were fun. How is our friend Don Kass? He hasn’t posted for years.

[John Dallas]

My dad shot columbaire birds in Mexico when Remington held a board meeting there. The bird boys were instructed to release the birds easily, because the board members where not good shooters. My dad killed the first several birds (lucky!) and the bird boy was angry - They all want to throw "no Hitters". My dad's birds got a lot more difficult

[Stan Hillis]

I would love to try Columbaire.

There's a great story about shooting them in Bob Brister's wonderful old book "Moss, Mallards and Mules".

[CraigThompson]

I would love to try Columbaire.

There's a great story about shooting them in Bob Brister's wonderful old book "Moss, Mallards and Mules".

I do better at Colombaire than I do at boxbirds ! I read that same story over forty years ago . That’s what got me started on wanting to go in the ring .