Serialization book vs gun discrepancy

[Wayne Owens]

A gun is being be shipped to me next week for inspection and hopefully purchase. The serialization book lists the gun (212796) as a BHE 12 gauge, 32inch barrels with a straight stock and no additional options. The pictures of the gun show a BHE 12 gauge, capped pistol grip, beaver-tail fore-end and a ventilated rib. After reviewing the pictures, the gun appears to me to be all original. Could the serialization book be incorrect? Is there any way that these options can be verified without waiting for a factory letter?

[william faulk]

My CHE came out of the factory in 1912 with a straight stock as book listed.
I was concerned also as the gun now wore a beautifull PG stock.
My letter solved the mystery as book showed gun was returnedto Parker in 1917 to replace stock with the one gun now wears.Glad I was able to have this documented..
Bill:cheers:

[Wayne Owens]

I will get a factory letter but I need to make a decision whether to purchase or not by next weekend. I once contacted the LC Smith Collectors regarding a similar question on a gun from the same seller. The answer they emailed me was the determining factor in not purchasing that particular gun.

[Eric Eis]

The book has been wrong. I do question the recoil pad on the gun, not a Silvers or Hawkins which is what was normally put on Parkers, stock looks possible refinish, flutes at the comb look a little too sharp. But all of this without having the gun in hand along with a letter is just a guess. Where do you live and maybe a Parker collector close to you could take a look at the gun.

[Mark Parela]

on a gun from the same seller.

Why would you deal with the same outfit again??

[Bruce Day]

..... Could the serialization book be incorrect? ....


I urge you to read page 56 of the Serialization Book.

[Wayne Owens]

Thanks for all of your responses.
I thought the ventilated rib and the fore-end look original since they look identical to the trap gun shown on page 401 of TPS (#229815). I figured the butt pad was probably an older replacement.
This gun and the other one mentioned from the same seller are/were not represented as original. It is up to me to do my homework. I have researched all the Parker books I own to determine whether this gun looks original or not. I will get a better idea when the gun is in my hands.
I do realize that the Serialization book has some incorrect information so that is why I posted this question and photos to see if there is a quicker way to help verify originality. Since this gun is a large investment, I will send away for a letter before I purchase the firearm. Any additional opinions based on the pictures posted would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again!

[Jared Valeski]

If this is the BHE that the big C has had on thier site, I have had a chance to examine the gun. The trigger guard wood to metal is somewhat ill fitting and there is an extra hole somewhere under the trigger guard tang area. The stock certainly has B grade traits but I believe it was restocked from a straight grip for some reason. The ventilated rib was damaged and loose from the barrels at the muzzle the last time I saw the gun in Hamburg PA. Could have been repaired by now. Examine the gun carefully.
Jared V

[Rich Anderson]

This is at Cabelas and I doubt they put any money into fixing the rib. There are lots of b grades and if you want a vent rib trap gun one of our members offered a 32 inch DHE vent rib to me but my desire to have the vent ribs in various barrel lengths has waned. If you want to PM me I'll pass along his contact info. I don't know if he still has the gun.

[Jared Valeski]

My friend just reminded that there was a Parker Letter with the gun that specified a straight stock if I recall correctly. Its been about 2 years since I looked the gun and letter over.

[Kevin McCormack]

At first look the SN Book can be faulted as wrong, but as previous posters have pointed out, many guns were returned for significant alterations (shortened barrels, opened chokes, "trap forends", etc. A letter is the first "line of defense"'; after that a close examination of the gun in hand will tell you a lot if you know what to look for. Keep in mind that then, as now, someone's "dream gun" may have turned out as a little less that they had envisioned; in that case, many were returned for a "retrofit" to more closely adhere to the original "perfect gun" vision or fantasy.

[Bill Murphy]

A personal look at the gun by a very experienced Parker collector/researcher is always preferred over a Serialization Book reference. We have had years to examine that particular gun, but you're stuck with three days. Too bad. An examination of the gun may tell an experienced collector that all changes to the gun were factory sourced. I wanted to look at the gun, but every time I tried at the Hamburg store, the gun was somewhere else, and now it has been moved to the Left Coast permanently. Good luck.

[David Dwyer]

My Friends
This post is one of the many reasons this is a great BB with many great people.
David

[Rich Anderson]

When Cabella's opens a new store inventory comes from the other stores. The new store will get some good stuff and some "dogs" in the deal. Its a great way for an older store to unload their "dogs" and move the inventory out without haveing to possibly sell it at less than the desired margin.

[Robert Beach]

Wayne,

Parker 212796 appears in the Abercrombie & Fitch records as a Second Hand Shotgun in 1929. In addition to the beavertail forend, a straight grip, and a vent rib, the shotgun was described as having a single trigger. It was sold first to a private individual who returned it shortly thereafter. Next it was sold to "The Larkin Store" (Buffalo, NY?). The record includes the following information: make, model, gauge, barrel length, weight, chokes, D@H, D@C, LOP, Ej, ST, BTFE, St Gr, VR, cost, price, dates of acquisition and disposition, and the name of the first buyer (as a used gun).

In general, I would like to remind you all that the A&F and VL&D records contain the specifications of over 4000 Parker shotguns, both new and used. These records usually include the name of the owner(s), as well. Griffin & Howe will be pleased to verify the specifications in the record if you are contemplating the purchase of a Parker. And, of course, we would also be very pleased if you decided to purchase the A&F/VL&D documentation for your Parkers. By the way, we also have a few record books from Von Lengerke & Antoine (Chicago) and I have recently begun to index those guns as well. The specifications are not always as complete as VL&D and A&F but the name of the buyer is in the record.

I hope to see some of you at Sanford. Please stop by G&H and say hello.

Bob Beach
Records Archivist
Griffin & Howe, Inc.

[Bruce Day]

It takes less time to unscrew the trigger guard tang screws, lift up the tang and check for serial numbers in the stock than it takes to research the matter and talk about it.

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks for the information, Bob. As has been clarified here many times, information about the original purchaser of Parker shotguns is normally only available in a PGCA letter for guns made in 1919 or before. After 1919, serial numbers above the high 180,000 range, PGCA letters usually only contain the specifications of the gun and no ownership or purchase provenance. The Griffin and Howe Reseach Service takes up where PGCA records leave off. The entire list of Parker serial numbers available for research is available on the Griffin and Howe website. Dozens of other makes of gun are also available for research by Mr. Beach.

[Wayne Owens]

I want to again thank all of you for your comments and suggestions regarding my post! It sounds like my main question after reading Mr. Beach's reply should be whether the stock was installed at the factory. I will take Mr. Day's advice and talk them into removing the screw from the trigger guard to see if the serial number is stamped in the wood.

[Bruce Day]

If a factory stock, this is what you should see;

[Rich Anderson]

Just because the serial number is stamped into the stock doesn't mean Parker did the work. The only way to positively confirm it would be a letter that states the gun was returned to be restocked.

[Bruce Day]

Letters are not available on all Parker restocked guns and if a gun was restocked multiple times by Parker that may be only partially documented by available Parker records.

Yes, I suppose it would be possible for a stockmaker to stamp in numbers in the correct orientation and with the correct number style and size, and to make the channel with a machine inletting tool instead of a chisel. I suppose so but I haven't seen one that precisely done yet or if I have seen one done that way and it is in all other respects a perfect Parker stock, it may not matter to me.

As a practical matter, in every instance I can recall here, somebody has posted photos of a stock that looks off in some respect and we've suggested to check the numbers under the tang and of course there are none.

[Jared Valeski]

My examination of the gun last year led me to the conclusion that the gun was restocked from straight to pistol grip probably Not by Parker Bros. An examination by others, I am most sure will confirm the same. As stated in an earlier post, the pistol grip stock currently with the shotgun certainly has B grade traits in regards to checkering etc. It's the wood to metal fit and other issues around the trigger guard tang area that led me to my conclusion. After studying the trigger guard area and reading the Parker letter that was with the gun, I did not feel the need to look for a serial under the guard .
JJV

[Rich Anderson]

I don't know if Donnie in Mo puts the serial number in the stock as I have never taken the trigger guard off the trap gun to look. I do know that its there on the CHE 20 I had restocked from pa PG to a straight stock. The only thing that gives it away as being restocked is the fact that I couldn't locate a SSB:crying:

[Wayne Owens]

Tonight I looked under the trigger guards of several Parkers and the numbers looked very much like the picture posted. The orientation was the same along with the grade stamp size and location. If the firearm in question doesn't have the number at all, that will clinch it. If the number is similar to the numbers shown on the posted picture, I will take a picture and post it to hopefully get opinions on the stocks originality.