A Special Gun on a Special Day [Archive] - Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums

Stan Hoover

11-29-2023, 09:00 PM

I decided to take a 2 hr walk with my 2 girls on Thanksgiving afternoon. I picked a new to me Crass from my good friend Walt Snyder. It is a special Jay Loy engraved gun with much detail.
I had a partial box of Western shells that I thought fit the gun pretty well, but unfortunately ignition was not dependable and they foiled my attempt to take the lone pheasant pointed by my girls. I’ll have to try again with different shells.

Bruce P Bruner

11-29-2023, 09:11 PM

Extreme elegance right there. The vintage shells make for better display than function. Beautiful shotgun. Congratulations!

Jeff Stegmeier

11-29-2023, 09:11 PM

Wow! Gorgeous gun Stan. Beautiful engraving and checkering. Please bring it to South Dakota.

Bill Jolliff

11-29-2023, 09:20 PM

Wow! Gorgeous gun Stan. Beautiful engraving and checkering. Please bring it to South Dakota.

Yeah Stan. What Jeff said. Gorgeous gun.

Thanks for showing us.

neill mcinnis

11-29-2023, 09:55 PM

That is a beautiful gun with marvelous barrels. It will be a joy in the field.

Dean Romig

11-29-2023, 10:15 PM

A fabulous Ithaca in every respect!

I know of the reputation of Joseph “Joe” Loy but I haven’t hrard of a Jay Loy. Was that a typo?

.

J. Scott Hanes

11-29-2023, 10:35 PM

I have used old paper shells often on Grouse hunts with usually great success. I am curious, if you care to enlighten me, what the "fit" issue was? Not igniting? Not fitting the chamber?

Bill Murphy

11-30-2023, 02:26 AM

What grade?

Reggie Bishop

11-30-2023, 06:14 AM

Beautiful Ithaca!

Rick Roemer

11-30-2023, 06:36 AM

If I owned that gun I would be looking at it so much I’d miss every bird! The shells are the perfect Autumn color.

Daryl Corona

11-30-2023, 07:25 AM

Stan Hoover

11-30-2023, 07:29 AM

Thanks for the correction Dean,
You are correct on the engraving being Joseph Loy's work, I guess I was confusing him with Jay Leech.

Scott, only one of the Western shells fired for me, and that one had what felt like a 1 second delay, the other few that I tried multiple times, failed to go off. I was suspect of light primer strikes, so I tried a few Eley 2 1/2" that I had on hand and they worked just fine.

Thanks for all the kind words everyone, I have a soft spot for these early Crass guns, on the higher grades, the engraving is just beautiful. Animals look natural and detail is just unbelievable.
Stan

Garry L Gordon

11-30-2023, 07:52 AM

Bird bagged or not, I can’t imagine a better outing (unless the pups gave you grief :))

William Woods

11-30-2023, 10:53 AM

I echo the sentiments of the others on the beauty of your new gun. I am not sure I would get past the engraving to look at the wood, but I am sure others would enjoy seeing pictures of the wood as well.

Congratulations.

Harold Lee Pickens

11-30-2023, 11:43 AM

What grade is that Stan. A 5 or 6?
I foolishly sold a grade 3 Crass years ago,

Dave Noreen

11-30-2023, 11:45 AM

Beautiful example of Ithaca Gun Co.'s best work!! Did Walter ever do a The Double Gun Journal article on the gun? Wish there was an index of Ithaca articles like we have of A.H. Fox articles.

Those pre-WW-II non-corrosive primers are pretty iffy. Twenty-two years ago I had a box of about 1939 vintage Winchester Super-Speeds that I took with me on a trip to the heartland. First walk after we crossed into the southeast corner of Nebraska, "Meat in the Pot" went click, click when the first rooster flushed. Tried several more at the parking lot with no success and left the box and shells on a fence post.

Stan Hoover

11-30-2023, 11:55 AM

Harold and Bill,

I've been away since last evening and will have to check the water table, I believe it is marked as a Grade 6 but need to confirm. What is unique on this one is that Loy signed his work, I'll have to see if I can photograph that area, it is very fine.

Yes Dave,
Walt did an article on this gun, I will look for that reference this evening. I was not aware of the index for A. H. Fox articles, I suppose that is on the Fox Collectors site?

Bill Murphy

11-30-2023, 12:40 PM

All of Walter's articles are listed in the yearbooks, up to Volume 14, I believe.

Stan Hoover

11-30-2023, 03:07 PM

Wow Stan that gun is really over the top! It looks to be a 12 so how long are the tubes? Like Jeff said bring it to SD and I'll bring some ammo that should work if we are lucky enough to find a rooster.

Daryl,
It is a 2 barrel set, 28' & 30", both Damascus. It is a 12 gauge, hardly big enough for those SoDak roosters:cool:

Daryl Corona

11-30-2023, 03:51 PM

Daryl,
It is a 2 barrel set, 28' & 30", both Damascus. It is a 12 gauge, hardly big enough for those SoDak roosters:cool:

Too bad it's not an 8.:):)

Stan Hoover

11-30-2023, 04:16 PM

I hope to have an 8 gauge Ithaca in the future, time will tell:whistle:

Drew Hause

11-30-2023, 06:45 PM

It's a 5 pin Grade 6 Stan. Wow.
Another one of Walt's; a 6 pin with "American Flag" and I believe a Gr. 5

https://photos.smugmug.com/US-Makers/Ithaca/i-xz5kBXN/0/1ea7854e/M/Crass%206%20pin%20American%20Flag-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/US-Makers/Ithaca/i-xz5kBXN/A)

This is Wayne Owen's Gr. 6 6 pin with 4 Iron "Turkish"

https://photos.smugmug.com/US-Makers/Ithaca/i-DPJBQkf/0/d60023cd/M/Crass%20Gr.%206%204%20Iron%20Turkish%206%20pin%20W ayne%20Owens-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/US-Makers/Ithaca/i-DPJBQkf/A)

The barrels look to be 3 Iron Crolle, but if you'll post a full size close up of about 8" of barrel where the contrast is most apparent I'll "read' the pattern.

Wayne Owens

11-30-2023, 07:00 PM

Stan's gun is shown on page 37 in volume 1, issue 3 of the Double Gun Journal, written by Walt Snyder. Walt describes the gun as " a beautiful old Ithaca Crass with Grade 7 quality engraving. Most likely a custom gun as there is no grade designation and the checkering pattern is style 4".

Stan Hoover

11-30-2023, 07:13 PM

Thanks Drew & Wayne,

Drew,
I will try to post some pictures of the barrels tomorrow in natural light or perhaps I can get some decent pictures this evening.
The engraving on that gun in your second picture is amazing, do you know perhaps what year gun that may be?

You beat me to it Wayne, thanks for hunting that up. The water table is marked as a Grade 1

Wayne Owens

11-30-2023, 07:19 PM

Stan, the gun in the second picture was made in 1898.

Drew Hause

11-30-2023, 07:31 PM

Thanks Wayne. Walt obviously knows, but my Crass catalog only shows Grade 6 as the top of the line. Grade 7 may mean Special Order. Lewis models had Grade 7. Researcher should know.

CraigThompson

11-30-2023, 07:49 PM

I hope to have an 8 gauge Ithaca in the future, time will tell:whistle:

So you’re thinking of adding a set of 8 gauge barrels to one of your NID 10 mags ?

Stan Hoover

12-01-2023, 06:53 AM

What grade?

Murphy/Harold,

the water table is marked with a 1 over 12, Walt described it as Grade 7 engraving in his article with grade 4 checkering on the stock. This gun was obviously a custom order.
I looked over his Crass article that Wayne referenced, the article was not specifically about this gun, but he did include 3 pictures of this gun.

I did notice that in the article, the gold setter on the trigger guard is (upside down) or not situated as it is now. I'm scratching my head, it is definitely the same gun, but why the difference on the dog???

Stan

Stan Hoover

12-01-2023, 06:56 AM

So you’re thinking of adding a set of 8 gauge barrels to one of your NID 10 mags ?

Not sure Craig if I can make it happen, but a few of my Magnum 10 barrels sets OD measurements are very similar to the 8 gauge barrels. Now obviously the 7 frame Parker barrels are much larger.
If it's possible, not sure.
Stan

Dean Romig

12-01-2023, 07:27 AM

Murphy/Harold,

the water table is marked with a 1 over 12, Walt described it as Grade 7 engraving in his article with grade 4 checkering on the stock. This gun was obviously a custom order.
I looked over his Crass article that Wayne referenced, the article was not specifically about this gun, but he did include 3 pictures of this gun.

I did notice that in the article, the gold setter on the trigger guard is (upside down) or not situated as it is now. I'm scratching my head, it is definitely the same gun, but why the difference on the dog???

Stan

Apparently somebody wasn’t fond of the original orientation of the gold setter…

.

Dave Noreen

12-01-2023, 11:42 AM

Apparently somebody wasn’t fond of the original orientation of the gold setter…

.

The bird on the trigger plate is also facing the other direction on the page 37 picture. A case of the printers having the Kodachrome or negative flipped.

Stan Hoover

12-01-2023, 01:54 PM

Thanks for confirming what I suspected Dave, I just wasn’t sure how that could be flipped.

As I understand, Crass extractor frames have 5 pins, ejector guns have 6 pins

Wayne Owens

12-01-2023, 05:34 PM

As I understand, Crass extractor frames have 5 pins, ejector guns have 6 pins

Yes Stan that is correct. Notice Drew's pictures. Those are ejector guns with 6 pins.

Bob Decker

12-02-2023, 11:21 AM

Stan, I hope to see the gun at the Southern or Northeast at Ernie's. Stop by the Lefever tables. Bob

Stan Hoover

12-02-2023, 12:25 PM

Thanks Bob,

I will bring it to Sanford, Lord willing and the creeks don’t rise!

Stan

Mike Koneski

12-02-2023, 01:17 PM

Maybe Stan will have that at the Northern SxS in July shooting for Team Ithaca? Team Ithaca is poised to win the Manufacturer's Cup. Vegas odds are 3-1 and leading the pack.

Daryl Hallquist

12-03-2023, 11:10 AM

The Crass guns can be the prettiest of all the Ithacas. Here's a fine Grade 5 in super high condition.
https://i.imgur.com/4kTrRRY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KRJBaTS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/M3wucQZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QNhV7zU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/S349VjS.jpg

Stan Hoover

12-03-2023, 06:49 PM

I finally was able to take some pictures of the barrels, the upper barrels in the pictures being the 28” barrels, the 30” barrels on the lower side. In my earlier pictures, I had the. 28” barrels on the gun.

Stan Hoover

12-03-2023, 06:53 PM

Try this again!

Drew Hause

12-04-2023, 07:20 AM

The barrels have slightly different patterns, but are both a nice 3 Iron "Oxford"
I was hoping the tube maker's initials would be forward of the flats but don't see any.
This might be Daryl's, or maybe Walt's :(

2 wavy 'zipper' welds between the straight ribband edge welds. OR viewed another way, 2 full size 'scrolls' between 2 smaller scrolls compressed when the ribband edge was 'jumped'

https://photos.smugmug.com/US-Makers/Ithaca/i-BrCF9xj/0/f56d02e8/L/Crass%203%20Iron-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/US-Makers/Ithaca/i-BrCF9xj/A)

Stan Hoover

12-04-2023, 10:22 AM

Thanks Drew,

These old guns with Damascus are interesting!

Here’s another favorite of mine, Crass 4 10 gauge

Dean Romig

12-04-2023, 10:27 AM

Jeeez at first I thought you were indicating a .410 but now I see my mistake.
Besutiful gun!!

.

Daryl Corona

12-04-2023, 10:37 AM

That Crass 4 10 is over the top. Wonderful gun Stan.

Dave Noreen

12-04-2023, 10:38 AM

That is some beautiful work from the folks at Fall Creek Water Power Lot No. 6, Stan. Some of those early Crass guns marked 4 are so far beyond what became the No. 4 as Ithaca grading settled out in the later hammerless models. A No. 4E from about 60 years later --

121321

Drew Hause

12-04-2023, 01:17 PM

Stan: the .410 barrels are 3 Iron also. Ignore the breech, where the tube is thicker, and getting a nice pattern is harder.

Stan Hoover

12-04-2023, 01:52 PM

I wish it was a .410:)

Forgive me for not being clear, it is a Quality/Grade 4, it is a 10 gauge:cool:

Thanks again Drew,
Stan

Stan Hoover

12-04-2023, 11:04 PM

Daryl,
That grade 5 you have there is beautiful, I don’t recall seeing engraving quite like that before, meaning the birds forward of the dogs in a circle. Have you encountered that layout before?

Wayne’s grade 6 also has a similar layout, maybe similar to the roundells encountered on Parker’s occasionally, that is a very nice layout if you will.

I have a grade 4 with elk/deer on the side panels and then a setter on the floor plate, and then a few grade 3’s with multiple species of birds on the sides, but no dogs.

Daryl Hallquist

12-05-2023, 06:21 AM

Stan Hoover

12-05-2023, 10:17 AM

My memory is slipping:crying:

I recalled that I had picked up a 30" 16 gauge Grade 6 Crass. It is in bad shape, broken butt stock, some rust on the barrels, etc.

I decided any Grade 6 Crass is worth bringing back to some kind of respectability, even more so if it is a 16 gauge with 30" barrels.

I will post pictures later, the engraving is of the same layout as Wayne's Grade 6 and Daryl's Grade 5. There are some other features that make it really desirable in my eyes, skeleton butt plate, and the Damascus pattern is different than I've encountered on any other Crass. The pattern reminds me of the Parker manufactured laminated pattern.

Drew,
I look forward to your answer on the Damascus barrels.

Stan Hoover

12-05-2023, 12:14 PM

Pictures of the Grade 6 16 gauge Crass

Wayne Owens

12-05-2023, 12:54 PM

Stan,
That 16 gauge is very similar to my 12 gauge. Sure appears the same ingraver did the work.

Stan Hoover

12-05-2023, 02:24 PM

Sure would appear that way Wayne, how about that rabbit on yours:)

I’m not real happy with the elk’s face on mine, the engraver may have forgot himself and put a dog face on the way it appears :whistle:

The serial # on the 16 is 30533

Dave Noreen

12-05-2023, 04:59 PM

gotta love that pointer climbing the rail fence.

Daryl Hallquist

12-05-2023, 06:06 PM

One of my favorite engraved guns showed a pointer, all tilted out, with 4 pups and pointing a cat all hissed up on a fence post. Wish I could show a you a picture of that.

Randy G Roberts

12-05-2023, 08:12 PM

I’m not real happy with the elk’s face on mine, the engraver may have forgot himself and put a dog face on the way it appears :whistle:

Stanley that's a late season rut tired bull :). Seriously these are some fabulous specimens gents. Ithaca engraving, gotta love it. I do.

Bill Jolliff

12-05-2023, 09:12 PM

One of my favorite engraved guns showed a pointer, all tilted out, with 4 pups and pointing a cat all hissed up on a fence post. Wish I could show a you a picture of that.

Daryl,

Was that gun an Ithaca? Sounds pretty neat.

Stan Hoover

12-05-2023, 09:58 PM

These early Ithaca’s are definitely interesting, like Dave said, engraving on later guns is not really comparable as to the detail,
and early models (Crass specifically) have considerably more engraving per grade.

I met an interesting fellow who had set up an Ithaca display at this years Baltimore gun show, just to display early Ithaca guns. I believe he may have had one Flues model, everything else was earlier. He put some time into it and the display was great.

Daryl Hallquist

12-06-2023, 07:56 AM

Daryl,

Was that gun an Ithaca? Sounds pretty neat.

Bill, it was on a Lefever sidecocker.

Kevin McCormack

12-06-2023, 10:45 AM

Drew Hause

12-07-2023, 10:04 AM

"Forgive me for not being clear, it is a Quality/Grade 4, it is a 10 gauge"

Missed the forest for reading the trees Stan ;) Should have noticed the big barrels!

The Grade 6 16g barrels are Damas Corche or Manufacture Extra found on Lindner Diamond Grades, and a $200 grade Parker Lifter (not Laminated Steel)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-LQNJW6x/0/5bb4b446/M/ParkerCtoncin2-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-LQNJW6x/A)

Stan Hoover

12-07-2023, 10:17 AM

Thank you Drew,

I appreciate your expertise on the Damascus barrels!

On the Parker Laminated barrels in the photo you posted, are these Parker produced barrels with the P on the barrel flat?

The pattern doesn't quite match the Parker manufactured barrels that I've observed.

Stan

Drew Hause

12-07-2023, 10:39 AM

Stan: we've had several threads regarding the understandable confusion over early Parker produced Laminated Steel (Dean has an example), and later Corche barrels marked Laminated Steel

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20330

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5520

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=7342#post7342

and at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1__gn3XKjLX_4V0LguzoVGBwJRFS6SxsWGzUwHq93neo/edit