Possible purchase, does this seem ok?

[Peter A Van Tassell]

Hello everyone,

I don't post often, but I do read and lurk a lot. I am considering purchase of an LC Smith double 12 in Grade 1 according to the seller. Their photos look acceptable for the price.

My question is, they claim a build date of 1894, with a serial of 38122. Now here's where it gets interesting: they claim 3" chambers. This makes me a tad nervous because it is Damascus barreled, thinking maybe they were re-cut a bit too thin? Would Elsie have offered a 3" chamber originally?

The seller is 1200 miles away, so it's not like I could measure the wall thickness myself, and I'm not sure if they are equipped to do so. Thanks for any insight you can provide.

--pete

[Bill Murphy]

So you can't measure and he can't measure, but someone has to. If a letter doesn't give you information, you have to assume 2 1/2" or 2 5/8" factory chambers. A half inch drilled into the chambers of a Damascus gun is a lot.

[Aaron Beck]

Make the gun purchase contingent on inspection. You could ship it to a third party gunsmith to review the barrel condition.

[Peter A Van Tassell]

Thanks guys, I suspected as much. I'll probably pass on it, there are others I can get for the same price or better. It's surprising how many of these guns were butchered though. I'm currently looking at another one that is completely original and untouched, for $400 less.

[Bill Murphy]

I have an early Grade 1 Damascus Smith that is a wonderful gun showing great craftsmanship.

[Dave Noreen]

I don't have access to any ammo catalogs dated 1894, but the 1895 UMC catalog offers their 12-gauge TRAP, SMOKELESS, NITRO and BLACK CLUB shells in lengths up to 3-inch.

[Peter A Van Tassell]

Wow, thanks (!!) I did not think anyone used 3-inch that early. It's a bit reassuring to know that, but -- it's still a couple thousand dollars to bet on it. I think I will wait till I hear back from the other fellow (as well as my FFL). Thanks again!

I don't have access to any ammo catalogs dated 1894, but the 1895 UMC catalog offers their 12-gauge TRAP, SMOKELESS, NITRO and BLACK CLUB shells in lengths up to 3-inch.

[Brian Dudley]

Some of the LC Smith dating info that is out there can be confusing and spotty/inaccurate.

What do the LC guys say about it?

[Peter A Van Tassell]

Well, I up and closed the deal for the other one I was looking at. It is in similar if not better condition, and almost no question of if it has ever been messed with. Appears totally original, and it was a few hundred cheaper. Now I just have to wait for the delivery and FFL.... finding ammo for it is going to be fun. I'm planning on reloading eventually, but I would like to find some factory low-pressure loads first. Unfortunately my state no longer allows loaded ammo via mail. My FFL can take delivery however. Any recommendations for a 1-ounce low pressure brand?

[Drew Hause]

From the beginning, unless requested otherwise (and so stamped) 12 gauge hammer and hammerless L.C. Smith chambers were 2 3/4".

A 1898 Crown Steel Pigeon Gun

https://photos.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/Design-Engineering/i-K4trrZt/0/19576a6b/L/1898%20Pigeon%20Crown%203%20Inch-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/Design-Engineering/i-K4trrZt/A)

2 7/8" & 3" chambers were not uncommon on guns for Live Bird and Inanimate Target shooting - not for more powder or shot but additional wadding.

Unfortunately the 1890 - 1913 Hunter Arms shipping records, unless for a high grade gun, have limited information and are unlikely to document a special order chamber length.

It is not uncommon to find barrels with lengthened forcing cones that have had the chambers lengthened in the process :(

[Peter A Van Tassell]

Thanks for the education. There were no such markings on the gun in question -- only the serial, and "field". As it is, I went with a different gun, which seems to have everything correct and original.

From the beginning, unless requested otherwise (and so stamped) 12 gauge hammer and hammerless L.C. Smith chambers were 2 3/4".

2 7/8" & 3" chambers were not uncommon on guns for Live Bird and Inanimate Target shooting - not for more powder or shot but additional wadding.

Unfortunately the 1890 - 1913 Hunter Arms shipping records, unless for a high grade gun, have limited information and are unlikely to document a special order chamber length.

It is not uncommon to find barrels with lengthened forcing cones that have had the chambers lengthened in the process :(

[Drew Hause]

BTW the barrel material changed on the No. 1
Until at least 1894 or 1895 the barrels were Twist
1895 to about 1898 Laminated Steel
1899 2 Rod Damascus and thereafter
Special Steel was offered in 1907

A few No. 1 gun have been found with what I think to be "Bernard Ribbon"

https://photos.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/Damascus/i-dpVHLBK/0/1659cbe8/S/Smith%206-S.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/Damascus/i-dpVHLBK/A)

[Drew Hause]

Something is wrong Peter.
Field grades were not introduced until 1913
The SN could also be c. 1920

I think you made a wise decision.

[Peter A Van Tassell]

Something is wrong Peter.
Field grades were not introduced until 1913
The SN could also be c. 1920

I think you made a wise decision.

Thanks for the confirmation. I don't know all the details like you guys do, but I do know just enough to get in trouble. Perhaps more importantly, I'm very aware of what I don't know. It's not that I'm new to doubles or shotgunning; just the vintage end of the sport is new to me. I do so love the craftsmanship, though!