I stumbled on a nice Ithaca flues

[James Doolittle]

I was looking at a local shop and found a nice little 16 gauge Ithaca Flues. Grade 2 made in 1913, with a trap stock. The original rubber butt pad was crumbling so I changed it. It has an ivory front bead on the Krupp Fluid Steel 26" barrels. It appears to have the chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" as I have a brass 16 gauge 2 3/4" shell that slides in freely. Bores are nice and bright. Lockup is tight, too. I was wondering if I could fire low pressure shells in it that I load myself to 8000 to 8500 psi.

[Garry L Gordon]

Nice gun! Ithaca used some very nice wood on its guns. What makes you say it has a trap stock? Just curious.

I'd sure get the barrel wall thickness checked. If you suspect the chambers lengthened, that would take metal away from points where pressures are the greatest. Always good to be careful. Those guns are among the lightest 16s made in America, and I'd treat it to very light loads (which take birds just fine).

Congratulations on your nice gun.

[Joseph Sheerin]

16ga 2 3/4 will still slide into a 2 9/16 chamber no problem.

Only way to know for sure, is to measure the chambers with correct tool.

2 3/4" is length of hull once fired if I am not mistaken..... So it's a matter of how much material that will constrict chamber and increase pressure...

As Gary said, I would definitely look into getting bores measured, etc.... RST 2.5's or similar is all I would shoot out of it no matter what anyway.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

If the barrels looked good, Id shoot standard 1 oz loads thru it (1200fps or less), or light/low pressure reloads. No expert on Ithacas, but I always heard the frame was the weak point on Flues--still I wouldnt be too concerned with those loads

[Dean Romig]

You may be saying that the Monte Carlo stock is a "Trap" stock. But it is a true Monte Carlo stock.





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[Dave Noreen]

No one can tell you over the internet what ammunition may or may not be suitable in a given gun.

It needs to be evaluated by a qualified smith with the proper tools for measuring barrel wall thickness, chambers, forcing cones, bores and chokes.

Ithaca Gun Co. was advertising some very light 16-gauges in 1913 --

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In my opinion one wants to be pretty careful feeding these 110-year-old Flues Models with their reputation of cracked frames and thin barrels.

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[James Doolittle]

I'm sorry, your right about it being a monte carlo stock not a trap stock. My mistake! The brass 2 3/4 shell does give like a plastic one so I was thinking it would give a better indication (not chambering completely) than a plastic one. But a gunsmith will be required to check it. The low pressure (7900 to 8500 psi) shells would be the only ones I would want to try for sure!

[Stephen Hodges]

A 1912 or so Flues 16 Gauge has been my primary upland gun for years. It was my Dads bird gun which he purchased used in the early 1930's for $25. It has 26" cyl/f barrels and weighs 5lb 13 oz. I only shoot 2.5" low pressure RST's and have never had an issue.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I have quitr a few Ithacas with examples of both models. In my opinion the NID models rank as maybe the best designed, strongest and longest lived doubles produced in the US. When I shoot an Ithaca it is generally a NID model. The Flues and older models are beautiful guns, well made and a delight to handle but are generally not particularly robust guns. I own mostly higher grades in the older guns and don't shoot them a lot due to respect for their value and vintage. The NID's are generally capable (condition dictating) of modern loads. However, I still restrict all of them to light loads for the simple fact that I see no real reason for anything else.

RST factories if available are great. So were Polywads' offerings. For a 16,check out the 16 Gauge Societies spreadsheet of reduced loads for that gauge. It is perhaps the world's single largest source of low pressure 16 ga loads. I have never found it necessary to shoot a load over 6000 psi in a 16 gauge. I am even happier at 5000-5500.

[James Doolittle]

Update...chambers are measured at 2 3/4". The load was found in the Hercules 1992 powder/load catalog. Gotta love those old booklets that were published by the powder companies. Fiocchi hull, 19.5 grs of Unique, PG16 wad, 1 oz of lead 7.5's. 7900 lup, 1150 fps. This is the lowest pressure load I could find.

[James Doolittle]

Does this make it a #2 Pigeon grade?

[James Doolittle]

Then I have to ask, Is this a #2 grade pigeon gun?

[Dave Noreen]

No. The No. 2 was historically a Damascus barrel gun with a List Price of $60. By 1911, possibly earlier, Ithaca began offering the No. 2 with Krupp Steel barrels and called it the No. 2 Krupp Pigeon with a list price of $70. It was offered from a 32-inch 10-gauge to a 24-inch 28-gauge.

By 1916 the No. 2 could be had with either Damascus or steel barrels at the $60 List price, $42.75 actual net selling price. The No. 2 Krupp Pigeon was still offered at the $70 List Price, $49.87 actual net selling price.

By 1918 both the Damascus and the Krupp barrels were gone and the No. 2 was said to be fitted with Best Fluid Steel Barrels. They still showed the $60 List Price but the actual net selling price was up to $50.

[Dave Noreen]

I did a bit more digging and found the No. 2 Krupp on a Minier era Ithaca price list dated 1907, List Price $70, actual net selling price $49.87.

[Mike Koneski]

John Davis posted some 16g loads tested by either Tom Armbrust or BP. 2 3/4" hulls, 1 oz and Longshot powder and were in the 6000 PSI range or less. I've been using those loads for clays and hunting and they do shoot great in my Parkers and Lefevers.

[James Doolittle]

So my #2 Flues was made in 1913 with the Krupp barrels, would it be a Krupp Pigeon?

[Dave Noreen]

I don't have a big 1913 Ithaca Gun Co. catalog. The 1912-13 pocket catalog only shows the No. 2 with Damascus barrels. The 1913 price list shows --

No. 2 Krupp bbls.

The formatting of the price list doesn't have room for the word Pigeon.

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[Stan Hoover]

I did a little digging this evening and I checked 1912 & 1915 Ithaca Gun catalogs. These catalogs that I was checking were not marked as to the year, but I believe these to be the catalogs from those years.

In the 1912 catalog, Ithaca did offer 2 different options of the Grade 2.

An option with Krupp Steel barrels which they note as a, No. 2 Krupp Pigeon Gun. Barrels-Genuine Krupp Fluid Steel Barrels,the same quality as our high grade guns $70 List
Second option was with Damascus barrels, same engraving as No. 2 Krupp gun Barrels- Imported Damascus steel with figure as shown in cut, formed by weaving and welding ribbons of iron and steel together. $60 List

In the 1915 catalog the No. 2 is only offered with Krupp barrels and they make no mention of the Krupp Pigeon gun.
The 2 catalog pictures are from an original 1912 catalog and I also included pictures of 2 envelopes that I thought were rather interesting.

[James Doolittle]

Thats pretty cool!

[Garry L Gordon]

Stan, those are nice envelops!