Another show,another gun.

[Jeff Sweeter]

I acquired another double at a local show this past weekend.It just seemed like a neat gun I wanted to try.Its an early A Grade Fox with 32 inch barrels both of which have .036 restriction,a single trigger,ejectors, no safety,straight stock with nice figure,original 2 5/8 chambers.The gun is tight and fits me perfectly.Stock has a minor Crack I need to address but that's about it.Should be fun on a sporting clay course this summer.Jeff.

[Bill Davis]

That’s a great looking Fox! Whose single trigger is in the gun? Can you determine that?

[Jeff Sweeter]

I really don't know a thing about single triggers.This is the first double I have other than being a newer gun to have a single trigger.I take that back,I have an Ithaca super ten with a single trigger also.I could post a close up picture if that could help determine.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Couple pics of the trigger and missing safety.I wouldn't know if it came this way or was converted.The guy that had it said the trigger and ejectors worked good and I took his word for it.

[charlie cleveland]

mighty nice find....charlie

[Chris Robenalt]

Really nice Jeff! I like and own a couple first year As myself. I'm really envious of that straight stock on your's!Good find!!

[CraigThompson]

Oh single trigger , straight grip , tight chokes AND no safety that one would go to the pigeon ring :cheers:

[Dave Noreen]

I feel pretty confident that the gun started life with a safety and the single selective trigger and the butt stock are newer than the gun. An original no-safety Ansley H. Fox wouldn't have the word SAFE engraved on the tang, but a bit of engraving to mask the plug in the slot. You could get a copy of the production card, if the serial number is above 9648, if you are a member of the A.H. Fox Collectors Association, Inc.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Thanks for the compliments and the info.I think it's a really neat gun.I don't care at all if it's original.I have a few others that aren't either but they are neat guns and have taken a rooster or a duck or a goose or were fun to shoot at clay pigeons.I bought another newer A Grade from the same person a few years ago and enjoy shooting it.This guy had another nice A grade with 32 inch barrels and the rest all conventional but had refinished the stock and got really carried away with the sand paper.This gun has evidence of that also.He also had a neat grade 3 Fox also with 32 inch barrels but had cut the stock short and refinished it too.I passed up a Sterlingworth a couple years ago with straight stock and 32 inch barrels and have regretted it ever since and when I spotted this gun,and pulled it up and it fit great,it was going home with me.If something didn't work right I would get it fixed.I think it will be one of my favorite guns.The stock dims on this gun are 1 1/2 comb and 2 1/8 heel at 14 3/8 lop.

[Dave Noreen]

Has anyone identified that single trigger? I've seen a few Parkers with that selector slide.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Couple more pics.All numbers match,has 1 weight barrels with small white center bead, a Bradley type front which I'm sure is a replacement.I really dought if this gun being an A Grade would have come with this nice of stock,but the forearm seemed to match pretty well so it didn't seem to matter.I know this gun has had some work done to it, I'm only about half it's age and I've had some work done to me too.Im tickled to have gotten it bought.I think I'm still a current member of LC Smith,but have never looked into Fox Collectors Assn.Jeff

[Jeff Sweeter]

A couple others I have.The bottom gun in the picture was also purchased from the same gentleman a couple years ago and was choked IC and Mod.The case colors on this gun are vibrant.The upper gun was an internet purchase a couple months ago and has some nice dark figured wood as well.These are both 30 inch guns and fit great also.

[Dave Noreen]

You really do want to join the A.H. Fox Collector's Association, Inc. and get a copy of the production card.

https://www.foxcollectors.com/sign-up

Cheaper than a letter from Cody --

https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/savage/

[Jeff Sweeter]

Well I'll just have to join them too I guess.I see on the upper tang a small slot was filled where the safety was.I shot it today and the trigger switch moves but right barrel fires first either position.And the left ejector isn't working either so needs a little work.

[Dave Noreen]

The slot for the safety slide in the tang must be something done early in the production of frames, as I've yet to see a no-safety Remington, Parker Bros. or Ansley H. Fox that doesn't have the slot filled.

[Tom Kidd]

It looks like it went back for the single trigger and conversion to no safety. Early triggers and ejectors can be tricky to get straightened out. Good luck with your Fox. Drop me a PM, I have some interesting information on your gun.

[Frank Srebro]

Nice find Jeff. You might want to post a front end pic of the frame knuckle to show if she has the early style Fox & Horne ejectors or the newer Russell Patent ejectors. Russell Patent parts are much more easily found if needed, though ime it's often just a matter of evaluating and tinkering to get the Russell ejector(s) to cock and trip on time.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Here's a couple more pics of ejectors and frame,if someone can determine what I have.The trigger works good,just doesn't switch from right to left barrel,which really doesn't matter as both chokes are the same.It fires the right barrel first.I have only fired it once so maybe both ejectors work some time.I want to get a Crack in the stock fixed before I shoot it very much. Looks like 1911 production by serial number. Thanks for any info.Jeff

[Tom Kidd]

Check your pm's.

[Frank Srebro]

Thanks Jeff for posting the pics. You have the Fox & Horne so-called 1st generation ejectors. Some of these earlier Foxes were changed out to the Russell Patent system, but not yours. Supposedly that was because of reliability issues but I’ve owned a few F&H Ejector Foxes and all but one were fully functional. Hopefully yours will prove to be too because if it needs parts they’re pretty much unobtainable and must be renewed/made in a well equipped machine shop.

[Dave Noreen]

Those barrels must be replacement barrels. A gun in that serial number range would have started life with Krupp barrels, but I see the D with a three-lobed crown over it mark on the bottom of the tubes, not the --FLUID-STEEL-KRUPP-ESSEN-- we would expect to see.

115601

[Jeff Sweeter]

They sure are replacement barrels,these are a lot newer than the gun.Ive got another first Gen A Grade with Krupp barrels.That gun is all original and very nice shape,but boring,this gun is interesting.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Numbers match from receiver to barrels and forend iron,and measuring chambers with galazan gauge they appear shorter than 2 3/4 which looks factory stamped on the barrels.I wonder how many times this thing has been in the shop.I have my old high school car yet,it's had 3 motors,3 rearends and 4 different 4 speeds put in it since I've owned it but it runs pretty good yet too.Pretty sure this is the most pictures I've ever taken of one of my guns.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Johnny Cash must have put this one together out of his lunch pail.

[Dave Noreen]

I wasn't "picking the gun apart." Just stating my observations. A straight grip gun with 32-inch 1-weight barrels is quite popular in today's market.

[Jeff Sweeter]

We're all good.Without stating a dollar amount I've only got in it what a remington 1100 20 gauge is worth.You don't see many 32 inch foxes in my area, other than the 2 others the guy had that I bought this one from.He had the stocks sanded down so the receiver was proud about 1/8 of an inch on both the others.If it wouldn't have been for that they would have all come home with me.Ill have a lot of fun with this one.Jeff

[charlie cleveland]

what kind of car do you have....charlie

[John Reed]

Willing to bet that's a Kautzky single trigger. My Parker had one on it that the selector looked just like the one on your fox

[Jeff Sweeter]

Charlie, it's a 67 Chevy Impala with a built up 327 and factory 4 speed,custom paint,very few parts original kind of like some guns I have but it sure is fun to cruise in.John, I received some info from another that it is indeed a Kautzky trigger and this gun is quite possibly one that Kautzky experimented with. Jeff

[charlie cleveland]

sounds like a fun car.....charlie

[Larry Stauch]

Obviously, you did well Jeff. Nice guns and whoever restocked the subject gun did a nice job with some beautiful wood. Congratulations on the find..

[Frank Srebro]

Charlie, it's a 67 Chevy Impala with a built up 327 and factory 4 speed,custom paint,very few parts original kind of like some guns I have but it sure is fun to cruise in.John, I received some info from another that it is indeed a Kautzky trigger and this gun is quite possibly one that Kautzky experimented with. Jeff

No doubt several of the Fox Fanatics with access to the Record Cards will agree that this Fox may be one on which Josef Kautzky did some prototype single trigger work. The button on the shift slide appears to be a pre-full production example. Typically the production buttons were larger and offset a bit from the slide.

[Jeff Sweeter]

I joined the Fox Collectors yesterday and requested the build card.The card reads it wax shipped on 6/15, and by the serial number the gun should be a 1911,it originally had 30 inch barrels,ejectors,Kautzky trigger and straight stock with about identical dims as the current one.Ive been told it may have been used for that trigger development,which makes it an interesting gun.The best thing is of the many doubles I have,this one just fits great when I pull it up.Not many I have fit like that.Its going to be fun on the clay course and I'll bet it gets me a limit of Roosters next fall.Of the guns I have I can't really call any of them my favorite.Maybe this one will be it.Thanks for everyone's input and info.Jeff

[John Reed]

I hope your Kautzky trigger works better than the one on my Parker. I ended up taking it off and putting double triggers back on. Mine had a bad habit of doubling.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Hi John, I've yet only fired it once and the trigger felt good.Hope it doesn't double.I need to get a Crack in the stock addressed first before I feel comfortable shooting it much.Ive had a stock off of a Sterlingworth a couple years ago and don't remember just how it came apart,if the trigger was involved with dissasembly.By advise here I don't want to mess with the trigger at all.It might just sit here a while till I figure things out.I have a couple other guns I'm working on currently anyway.

[John Reed]

I hope it works great for you as well. Just keep in mind if it does double, the trigger may be the culprit.

[Dave Noreen]

From your pictures it appears that the trigger is in the righthand slot and the selector in the left. When A.H. Fox Gun Co. finally brought out their Fox-Kautzky Single Selective Trigger in 1914, they did it the other way with the trigger in the left slot and the selector in the right.

115667

Joe Kautzky had at least three patents for single triggers -- No. 827,242 granted July 1, 1906; No. 990,562 granted Apr. 25, 1911 and No. 1,109,632 granted Sept. 1, 1914.

[Jeff Sweeter]

It gets more interesting all the time,yep the trigger is in the right slot and selector in left.At least the gun still opens by pressing the release lever to the right. Maybe further proof this was experimental gun with that trigger.Worst case it sounds like it could be switched back to double trigger,ejectors disabled and safety reinstalled. Don't think that will happen by me though. Thanks for info Dave, Jeff

[Frank Srebro]

> posted in error, deleted

[Frank Srebro]

I joined the Fox Collectors yesterday and requested the build card.The card reads it wax shipped on 6/15, and by the serial number the gun should be a 1911,it originally had 30 inch barrels,ejectors,Kautzky trigger and straight stock with about identical dims as the current one.Ive been told it may have been used for that trigger development,which makes it an interesting gun. [snip] Jeff

I'm a former Fox Director and have copies of the Record Cards. Looked at yours last evening; maybe I missed it but I didn't see an entry for a Kautzky trigger - though it did show the Fox was shipped to Kautzky. Typically no entry for trigger means double triggers by default.

[John Reed]

This is a picture of the single trigger that was on my DHE. I could never figure out who's trigger it was until I took it apart and from the diagrams I've seen, it sure looked like a Kautzky triggers mechanism.

[Dave Noreen]

The card reads it wax shipped on 6/15, and by the serial number the gun should be a 1911

There also appears to be a stamped date on the card, AUG 11 19xx, but no matter how I've played with Brightness, Exposure & Contrast I can't read the year. That the year digits were overwritten with 6 oz makes it even worse.

[Jeff Sweeter]

When I saw the card and never viewing one before and seeing the name Kautzky,just assumed after all the previous discussion it was just listing the trigger.Didnt have a clue this gun could have been sent to him.Could the Aug 11 just mean 1911 as that is the year the gun serial numbers to.Ill try to load a pic of the card on here.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Here it is.

[Frank Srebro]

Josef/Joe Kautzky was in the Sporting Goods business in Fort Dodge Iowa and he ordered Fox guns for customers and peers who were active in Trap shooting as he was. He was an early Fox gun proponent and there are even mentions of the Fox Gun Club of Fort Dodge in period literature. Just because “Kautzky” is shown as your gun’s consignee doesn’t mean it was his personal Fox. With all that said the trigger selector slide on your gun APPEARS to be a prototype or early Kautzky design which he may have fitted to his or to a customer’s gun. It would be nice to see pics of its innards if you decide to take it apart for study.

[John Reed]

Josef/Joe Kautzky was in the Sporting Goods business in Fort Dodge Iowa and he ordered Fox guns for customers and peers who were active in Trap shooting as he was. He was an early Fox gun proponent and there are mentions of the Fox Gun Club of Fort Dodge in period literature. Just because “Kautzky” is shown as your gun’s consignee doesn’t mean it was his personal Fox. With all that said the trigger on your gun APPEARS to be a prototype or early Kautzky design which he may have fitted to his or a customers gun. It would be nice to see pics of its innards if you decide to take it apart for study.
Hmmm. My Parker was ordered for a sporting goods company in Iowa if my memory serves me correctly.

[Jeff Sweeter]

I'm not too far away from Ft.Dodge Ia.Im going to do some checking and see if the guy I got this from might be from that area.He always has a half dozen foxes on his table.I wouldn't be comfortable taking this gun apart,in fact I'm nervous about removing the stock for repair.I have had a stock off a Sterlingworth some time back but don't remember what it involved.Im not going to send this out to be dissected as interesting as it is.I don't personally know any gunsmiths yet, knowledgeable with any doubles around here.I know there are many reputable gunsmiths, im just not familiar with any.I do have a few others with issues but not serious.I have a machinist friend that's been helping me with a couple.Hes pretty sharp.Next time he's over I'll show it to him and see what happens.Would be neat to meet all of you.I did get to the sxs shoot last summer in Wisconsin and might get out there again this year.The other shoots are just too far away.I don't know if my old car would make it.Ha. Jeff

[Dave Noreen]

Jeff, did you get the back of the card as well? I'd like to see those original 30-inch barrels, heavier than 1-weight.

Joe Kautzky Sr and his daughter Marie were well known trap shooters. An article on the Kautzky family was in the Winter 1963 issue of The Iowan --

115688

115689

115690

115691

Dick Baldwin did a chapter on Marie in his book of trap shooting historical profiles The Road to Yesterday.

[Dave Noreen]

Could the Aug 11 just mean 1911 as that is the year the gun serial numbers to.

The date stamp that appears on many of the A.H. Fox Gun Co. production cards is three letters for the month, two digits for the day and four digits for the year.

115692

[Jeff Sweeter]

Just did some checking and the guy I got the gun from is in Minneapolis Minnesota area, which is only a couple hrs from Ft Dodge IA. I might have to take in a Des Moines IA. gun show,they have several a year,not far from Ft Dodge.Might be some more interesting guns in that area.

[Jeff Sweeter]

This came with it.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Have to make another phone call or 2 and can contact the guy I got it from.He was very nice to deal with.Maybe can trace it back a ways if interested.Ive got another gun I find real interesting,I posted on here a couple years ago,It's a Vgrade 36 inch that's had everything swapped out but the safety.The guy I bought it from claimed to have bought it from an original decendan of original owner of the gun who only lived 10 miles from me,but he will not tell me who it was.He told me he frequents a local gun show that I probably know 1/3 of the vendors.I might even know the guy.Frustrating.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Wouldn't be neat to find the original barrels.

[Jeff Sweeter]

Looks like I have some reading to do,Thanks Dave for the info.The gun weighs 8 lb 2 oz. and the 32 in barrels weigh 4 lbs even by my scale.You could tell the weight of the original barrels by the gun weight listed?Or is it on the card?

[Larry Stauch]

The Fox book by McIntosh has some tables in it that tell the barrel weights of the various gauges, number weights (#1, #2, ect.) and the lengths; pages 152-154.