Parker Chamber

[Richard Mason]

Have a chance to buy a nicely restored Parker DH
1904 model by serial number , I think the price is fair
Has nice original metal butt cap and original pistol grip , wood looks delicious

Only thing holding me back is the chamber size , he told me he shot 2 1/2 out of it , RST shells , it’s pretty hard to find them over here in Alberta Canada

Does it hurt to have a good gunsmith to open it up to a 2 3/4 inch

[scott kittredge]

i wouldnt open them, but thats just me. :)
scott
Fixed post i said i would but ment wouldn't

[Rino Grassa]

Have a chance to buy a nicely restored Parker DH
1904 model by serial number , I think the price is fair
Has nice original metal butt cap and original pistol grip , wood looks delicious

Only thing holding me back is the chamber size , he told me he shot 2 1/2 out of it , RST shells , it’s pretty hard to find them over here in Alberta Canada

Does it hurt to have a good gunsmith to open it up to a 2 3/4 inch

Prophet River does carry the RST when and if they are available...speak to Clay and ask where they sit going forward with bringing in more. Gamebore is your other option...Im sure someone carries them or can get them when they become available....word has it that by summer some will be available.

[ED J, MORGAN]

Are you sure about the chamber size ? get them measured first .

[Richard Mason]

Prophet River does carry the RST when and if they are available...speak to Clay and ask where they sit going forward with bringing in more. Gamebore is your other option...Im sure someone carries them or can get them when they become available....word has it that by summer some will be available.

I’ll call Clay Monday
Last thing I want to do is mess with it ,

[Bill Murphy]

Wait a minute. You say the owner "shot 2 1/2" shells in it". What does that have to do with the actual chamber length? As Ed says, you have no idea of the length of the chamber. If it measures 2 5/8" or 2 3/4", you don't have to do anything to it. It would be proper for 2 3/4" shells.

[Rick Riddell]

I think it’s pretty safe to say a 1904 DH isn’t going to be 2 1/2, can anyone show an example of a middle grade or lower that’s 2 1/2 inch in 1904 and above?

[Richard Mason]

Wait a minute. You say the owner "shot 2 1/2" shells in it". What does that have to do with the actual chamber length. As Ed says, you have no idea of the length of the chamber. If it measures 2 5/8" or 2 3/4", you don't have to do anything to it. It would be proper for 2 3/4" shells.

Bill
Do you think way back in 1904 that it could of been made for 2 3/4 shells ,

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, or 3" or any other length. A letter about the original order or a measurement of the actual chamber will tell the tale.

[Richard Mason]

Yes, or 3" or any other length. A letter about the original order or a measurement of the actual chamber will tell the tale.

On the top Bill , on the Rib , it says Titanic Steel , is that strong enough to handle 2 3/4 loads

[Dean Weber]

Wait a minute. You say the owner "shot 2 1/2" shells in it". What does that have to do with the actual chamber length? As Ed says, you have no idea of the length of the chamber. If it measures 2 5/8" or 2 3/4", you don't have to do anything to it. It would be proper for 2 3/4" shells.

Bill is right. 2 3/4 would be correct for multiple gauges, which are not stated if I follow correctly.

[Dave Noreen]

No where in this thread has the gauge of the gun in question been mentioned. In 1904, a Parker Bros. gun could have been ordered for any length shells our U.S. ammunition manufacturers offered -- 12-gauge 2 5/8-, 2 3/4-, 2 7/8-, 3- or 3 1/4-inch shells; a 16-gauge for 2 9/16-, 2 3/4-, 2 7/8- or 3-inch; a 20-gauge for 2 1/2-, 2 3/4-, 2 7/8- or 3-inch; and a 28-gauge for 2 1/2- or 2 7/8-inch shells. Generally speaking, Parked Bros. held their chambers 1/8-inch shorter than the intended shells.

[Richard Mason]

No where in this thread has the gauge of the gun in question been mentioned. In 1904, a Parker Bros. gun could have been ordered for any length shells our U.S. ammunition manufacturers offered -- 12-gauge 2 5/8-, 2 3/4-, 2 7/8-, 3- or 3 1/4-inch shells; a 16-gauge for 2 9/16-, 2 3/4-, 2 7/8- or 3-inch; a 20-gauge for 2 1/2-, 2 3/4-, 2 7/8- or 3-inch; and a 28-gauge for 2 1/2- or 2 7/8-inch shells. Generally speaking, Parked Bros. held their chambers 1/8-inch shorter than the intended shells.

It’s 1904 DH , with 30 inch barrels , say titanic steel on the rib , is a 12 gauge

[Phillip Carr]

Here is a letter on my DH made in 1896 with the owner ordering 2 3/4” chambered barrels.

[Dave Noreen]

The heaviest 12-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered in 1904 were 3 1/2-drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder (such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. Such loads could be had in the 12-gauge 2 3/4-inch or longer cases. In those days the longer shells had more/better wadding, which many shooters believed an advantage, not heavier pay loads. The pressure of those loads was a bit higher that modern day SAAMI specs. When progressive burning smokeless powder, high velocity loads (Western Super-X, Peter High-Velocity, Remington Nitro Express, etc.), came out circa 1922, they moved out that 12-gauge 1 1/4-ounce load at higher velocity but actually lower pressure than the old bulk or dense smokeless powders. That did subject stock heads and bolting to greater recoil forces.

While no one can tell you over the internet what ammunition may or may not be suitable in a given gun, I'd bet the chambers in the 1904 gun are at least 2 5/8-inches which is perfectly suitable for 2 3/4-inch shells.

[Richard Mason]

The heaviest 12-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered in 1904 were 3 1/2-drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powder (such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. Such loads could be had in the 12-gauge 2 3/4-inch or longer cases. In those days the longer shells had more/better wadding, which many shooters believed an advantage, not heavier pay loads. The pressure of those loads was a bit higher that modern day SAAMI specs. When progressive burning smokeless powder, high velocity loads (Western Super-X, Peter High-Velocity, Remington Nitro Express, etc.), came out circa 1922, they moved out that 12-gauge 1 1/4-ounce load at higher velocity but actually lower pressure than the old bulk or dense smokeless powders. That did subject stock heads and bolting to greater recoil forces.

While no one can tell you over the internet what ammunition may or may not be suitable in a given gun, I'd bet the chambers in the 1904 gun are at least 2 5/8-inches which is perfectly suitable for 2 3/4-inch shells.

Thank you all for the advice , I’m buying it and going to have it double checked out befor I put some shell through it , I’ll get the chokes checked and try light 1 ounce loads first ,
I’ll post some pictures as soon as I figure out how to
Thanks

[Dean Romig]

My 1898 DH 12 has 30” Titanic barrels with 2 9/16” chambers and I often shoot 2 3/4” AA’s at trap and SC.






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[randall rosenthal]

On the top Bill , on the Rib , it says Titanic Steel , is that strong enough to handle 2 3/4 loads

i shoot mostly 2 1/2 RST from my 1904 VH but have shot modern 2 3/4 on occasion. pretty sure they are the original chambers. BTW...if you check the RST website often....they do become available but you can't hesitate.

[Bill Murphy]

Phil, that is one interesting letter. A DH with Vulcan Steel barrels, and a no safety pigeon gun to boot. The buyer's name has a familiar ring to it. Is he a competition shooter?

[Dean Romig]

The explanation for the Vulcan Steel barrels on a 1896 DH is quite obvious. Titanic Steel barrels weren't introduced until 1897 and prior to their introduction the choices were only Damascus Steel, Laminated Steel, Twist and Vulcan Steel, so if someone wanted a DH with fluid steel barrels the only option was Vulcan Steel.





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[Dave Noreen]

Wm R. Burkhard's was a big sporting goods dealer in St Paul.

[allen newell]

Just get the dam chambers measured. It will eliminate all speculation and give you peace of mind.

[Richard Mason]

Just get the dam chambers measured. It will eliminate all speculation and give you peace of mind.

That’s my game plan , soon as I get it , I’ll have it measured and look at befor I start shooting it
Thanks

[Matt Buckley]

Wm R. Burkhard's was a big sporting goods dealer in St Paul.

1937-38 Burkhards Catalog with pages showing Parker’s.

[Phillip Carr]

Thanks guys for the info on Burkhard. I had never knew who he was.

[Parker Walz]

There is a high probability it is a 2.5 chamber. The thing is that a modern 2.75” shell fits in a chamber of that size because of the crimp (roll or pie). Shells are measured by the length before loading. That being said, if a 2.75 or 3” plastic shell fits in the 2.5” chamber and is shot the pressure will increase due to the end of the shell causing a constricted forcing cone. Not sure how dangerous that is but to be on the safe side there is nothing wrong with having it reamed to 2.75 for safety. Or if you reload, trim the hull to 2.5” then reload it.

[Phil Cloninger]

Good discussion...., just as an added bit of information, I had a 1903 16 ga. 0 frame, VH grade, with Vulcan barrels that was sold as having 2-3/4" chambers.

I had a gunsmith measure the chambers and they were 2-3/4".

A later Research Letter verified that the gun was ordered with the 2-3/4" chambers.

[John Taddeo]

Maybe take a quick look at the home page. Parker FAQs / Collecting/#7 barrel wall thickness. It will explain that wall thickness is quite important at the juncture of the chambers and forcing cone as well as the angle, furthermore the wall thickness is also decreasing from the breech to the muzzle. Just a little food for thought before wielding a reamer to save a little $$ on shells.

[Richard Mason]

Maybe take a quick look at the home page. Parker FAQs / Collecting/#7 barrel wall thickness. It will explain that wall thickness is quite important at the juncture of the chambers and forcing cone as well as the angle, furthermore the wall thickness is also decreasing from the breech to the muzzle. Just a little food for thought before wielding a reamer to save a little $$ on shells.

I’ll know with luck over the weekend , it’s in the mail to me to inspect and I’ll measure them then

[Mike Koneski]

There is a high probability it is a 2.5 chamber. The thing is that a modern 2.75” shell fits in a chamber of that size because of the crimp (roll or pie). Shells are measured by the length before loading. That being said, if a 2.75 or 3” plastic shell fits in the 2.5” chamber and is shot the pressure will increase due to the end of the shell causing a constricted forcing cone. Not sure how dangerous that is but to be on the safe side there is nothing wrong with having it reamed to 2.75 for safety. Or if you reload, trim the hull to 2.5” then reload it.

Shell length is the measurement of the shell after firing. A 2 3/4" shell is the length after firing, not before.

[John Taddeo]

Variations of a 2 3/4 open hull?? Far right is a 2 1/2 RST..

[Jim Thynne]

Parker was known for short chambered guns, I never had a hammerless steel barreled gun that would not shoot 23/4 inch shells and pattern properly!

[Richard Mason]

Parker was known for short chambered guns, I never had a hammerless steel barreled gun that would not shoot 23/4 inch shells and pattern properly!

That is interesting ,

[Bruce Day]

A DGJ article of some years back demonstrated that the pressure rise was in the order of several hundred PSI out of a normal load of 8,000 .

[Dean Romig]

Right Bruce but something less than 500 as I recall, and to the best of my memory, it was around 300 psi.





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[Richard Mason]

I was researching some more on useing a light 12 load in 2 3/4 in a 2 1/2 chamber tonight and found a great chat on double guns

When i think light load , I’m talking more so about the pressure and the velocity
Say anything under 1150 PSI

I thought this very interesting


115007

[Dan Steingraber]

I was researching some more on useing a light 12 load in 2 3/4 in a 2 1/2 chamber tonight and found a great chat on double guns

When i think light load , I’m talking more so about the pressure and the velocity
Say anything under 1150 PSI

I thought this very interesting


115007

Great hang tag. I think you’ll find most of the folks here prefer significantly less pressure for a variety of reasons. I obviously misread the 1150 as 11,500. My apologies.

[Dean Romig]

Does 107705 have composite barrels or fluid steel?
I know Parker Bros. never differentiated between the two in their load recommendations…





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[Mike Koneski]

I was researching some more on useing a light 12 load in 2 3/4 in a 2 1/2 chamber tonight and found a great chat on double guns

When i think light load , I’m talking more so about the pressure and the velocity
Say anything under 1150 PSI

I thought this very interesting


115007

Richard, I think the 1150 PSI is a typo? I don't know anything with only 1150 PSI.

[Dave Noreen]

Me thinks Richard meant 1150 fps!!

I have collected pictures of fifteen 12-gauge Parker hang tags and I can make no sense out of why some are targeted with 1 1/8-ounce loads and others with 1 1/4-ounce loads. Some state "Use Shells 2 5/8 Long" and others state "Use Shells 2 3/4 Long".

The earlier tags, below about 150000, have a line above that states "Length of Shell X x/x Inch", always filled in 2 5/8?!?

Just to be a little more irritating a couple of tags show the gun being targeted with bulk smokeless powder and the load is given in grains.

[Dean Weber]

Richard,

Even though these discussions are a repeat of others over the years, I find them fascinating. To Researcher's point, even documentation/advice on hang tags is very confusing. In my estimation, chamber length, as a safety concern, is overstated.

For example, I just measured a John Dickson 12 ga. with documented/proofed 2.5" chambers. However, my chamber gauge tool measures them a little more than 2 9/16. I also measured a James Woodward 12 ga. which is documented/proofed at 2.5" but I measure them at 2 5/8. These are documented guns from notable gunmakers where both went through proofing houses. Yet, the chambers are definitely not exactly 2.5". Obviously, these were not lengthened to 2 3/4.

Then if you add in the differences in shell length after the shot, we get many different lengths of spent shells, even though they may be marketed as a 2 3/4 length. My point is an AA shell is 2 11/16 long after firing. Should I be concerned about 1 or 2/16's overlap in my expensive Dickson/Woodward guns which were only proofed at 2.5"? The answer is no for me, as I know my barrel condition is good.

My recommendation is to concern yourself with condition of your barrels first and go have fun 2nd. The chamber length in most cases is a distant concern. That does not mean to disregard pressure or velocity in your determination.

[Chuck Bishop]

I agree Dean.

[Dean Romig]

A few of Morris’s loads are 1150 psi.






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[Dean Romig]

In my opinion, wall thickness at the juncture of the chamber and the beginning of the forcing cone is far, far more critical than chamber length differences of a sixteenth or an eighth of an inch.





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[Richard Mason]

115014

115015

115016


I tried a few times with the paper trick of sliding it to touch the start of the force cone with no luck for me , I could feel it good enough

It sure looks longer then 2 1/2 inch to me , I’m going to search out someone who has a chamber measuring device

The bores looked really good

and this took my breath away when I unboxed it after work , it’s more then I could of hoped for , the colours in the CCH is so nice , looks like a old patina on it
1910 Parker , 30 inch barrels ,
I can’t wait to shoot it ,

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Handsome gun, very nice!

[Frank Srebro]

I've seen a letter reference from a principal at Parker to Capt. Charles Askins and dated in the 20's that states unequivocally that Parker chambered 12ga guns to 2-5/8" and intended for 2-3/4" shells at factory pressure level. I'll look for it later and will post the content if I can find it.

[Richard Mason]

I've seen a letter reference from a principal at Parker to Capt. Charles Askins and dated in the 20's that states unequivocally that Parker chambered 12ga guns to 2-5/8" and intended for 2-3/4" shells at factory pressure level. I'll look for it later and will post the content if I can find it.

Please do find it , that will put my mind at ease ,
Thanks

[John Dallas]

Richard - Poor man's answer. If you have a small machinist's rule, turn it on its edge and slide it into the chamber until it begins to reach the chamber neck, and light will show between the rule and the chamber wall. Read the rule. Bingo

[Frank Srebro]

Excerpt from the reply letter from Parker Brothers to Capt Charles Askins:

“Replying to your letter of December 17th [1920] …... Referring to the cone, we ordinarily permit our shells to lap into it 1/8-inch but as a matter of fact we have found that the majority of guns will shoot a better pattern with even more lap than this. …… In user’s hands we do not advocate the use of longer shells than those which give 1/8 lap.

Parker Brothers, per W. A. King”

[Dean Romig]

The chambers in my 1898 DH 12 with Titanic Steel barrels are 2 9/16” and when I shoot 2 3/4” AA’s in it the very tips of my fired shells are pinched… even to the extent of being pinched off. The felt recoil is only a smidge more than when I shoot 2 1/2” shells of equal loading.





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[edgarspencer]

The felt recoil is only a smidge more than when I shoot 2 1/2” shells of equal loading.

Would someone 'not from around heuh' understand this?

[Dean Romig]

Hmmm…

How about an increase in felt recoil of .017 ft. lbs. ?





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[Bill Murphy]

Are we really to think that 2/16" or even 3/16" encroachment of thin plastic into the largest end of a tapered forcing cone would have any effect at all on pressure? I'm going with "I don't think there is any effect on pressure whatever".































































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[Bruce Day]

Photo 1 is from DGJ, referring to a preceding article mentioning 300psi as a common pressure rise.

If a person has a gun that is on the edge of decrepitude , I suppose a 300 psi rise might be too much.

The next 2 photos are from Parker brochures .