Need help identifying & valueing an old parker

[Fred Beeler]

I need some help to identify an old Parker hammerless double 12 ga shotgun. 28 inch mod/full barrels. From what research I have already done I believe the gun in question is a grade 3 mfg'd in 1902. The Vulcan barrels & for-end however were made in 1909 which leads me to believe that the gun was re-barreled some time after 1909. Also the different wear patterns between the frame & barrels tend to confirm my belief. The water table shows crisp engraving & at most a 40% rating for remaining case hardening finish where-as the barrels & matching for-end show what I believe is a solid 80% remaining finish. The water table shows a Number 3 over the serial # 109878 and the letter D below the #. The barrel shows #149999 with a #2 on the bottom lug, a V in a circle , and the #4 with a small #1 just above and to the right on the right barrel flat. I will try to attach pictures for clarification. Identity & possible value would be appreciated.

[Dylan Rhodes]

Someone more knowledgeable will be around shortly but it looks like someone took a D grade action and assembled it to V grade barrels. I'm a bit skeptical to say it was "rebarreled" as it looks like there is a gap between the face and the barrels.... more likely someone just put those barrels on that gun. 2 is the frame size for those barrels, the most common frame size in 12 gauge.

if you remove the forearm only is there any wiggle in the barrels with the action closed?

[Fred Beeler]

I removed the for-end and can feel a very slight side - to - side click but really can't see any change in the barrel gap.

[Dylan Rhodes]

I removed the for-end and can feel a very slight side - to - side click but really can't see any change in the barrel gap.

It should be solid with no movement or clicking. Either it was rebarreled and shot a ton, or someone just found barrels that sort of fit. The latter is much more likely...

[Fred Beeler]

Then I guess that basically I am looking at a "mongrel" for collector value and just a shooter ?

[Dylan Rhodes]

Then I guess that basically I am looking at a "mongrel" for collector value and just a shooter ?

you would have a hard time finding a collector that would want that particular piece. I suppose if the price was right someone would buy it, but the price wouldn't shake a stick at an all-original DH. If you could provide some provenance to who "rebarreled" it and when that would help as well. If you're looking to buy, I would walk away.

I'm relatively new at collecting myself, there are a ton of very knowledgeable people on this forum that have been doing this for way longer than I. Perhaps you and I will both learn something today.

[Joe Dreisch]

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[Fred Beeler]

Thank you everyone for your help. I will inform the owner that he basically has a "wall hanger" or bait for the next buy-back program by the local police dept. Either way He will be told to NOT SHOOT IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES !!

[Dylan Rhodes]

Thank you everyone for your help. I will inform the owner that he basically has a "wall hanger" or bait for the next buy-back program by the local police dept. Either way He will be told to NOT SHOOT IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES !!

easy there. There are a lot of potentially good parts inside the action, don't let it get melted down and destroyed by the gov't.

[John Davis]

That 1902 DH is much more likely to be a 2 frame than a 1 1/2 frame. And the gunk we see may just be grease. 109878 started life with Damascus barrels, so I suspect someone found a set of Vulcan steel barrels that fit or were easily fitted to the gun. I’ve had that done several times and I’m not by myself. It’s not a collectible but it could be a shooter. You just need someone who knows what they’re looking at to give you a hands on inspection.

[edgarspencer]

Whoa! Slow down there, buckaroo. Before you condemn a shooter, have someone familiar with Parkers look at the gun In Hand.
Digital pictures on the internet can be very misleading.
The gun left the factory as a Damascus barrel Grade 3, and possibly the owner fell victim of the "Dangerous Damacus" hype. There are lots (and lots) of 1 1/2 AND 1 frame 12 gauge guns out there, so even if there was some profiling of the very end of the breach end of the barrels, there's still no less than the wall a 1 1/2 frame gun would have there.(Which is still more than a 1 frame gun) I'd be more concerned about profiling in the forcing cone area than at the end of the barrels. The fit of the dolls head 'appears' very good, and would belie the assumption a full 1/16" was removed. There doesn't appear to be any alteration of the dolls head.
The receiver has well more value than the sum of it's parts, and it's still possible to seek out a set of better fitting barrels. In any case, I don't see anything that says the receiver is definitely a 1 1/2 frame. The only way to know for certain is to measure the width of the bolsters,, and height of the standing breech.

[Brian Dudley]

Who says it is a 1-1/2 frame gun? The frame is not marked, so unless all of the critical measurements are taken to confirm, we would not know. I would assume the frame is a 2 frame, as the barrels are marked. Obviously the gun just had barrels from another gun put on it and fitted down fairly crudely. The barrels were taken down around the breech and a lot on the rib extension to meet the frame. There can be a lot of variations from gun to gun in these areas. The gun the barrels came from were heavier at the breech than that DH they went onto.

Put some primed hulls in and dry fire it and see if the pins are striking the primers on center.

I would say that there is no reason that the gun would not be shootable from what I see, but it should be looked at by someone more knowledgeable to make sure there are no unforseen issues.
And please, dont let it go to a buy back. The owner will get screwed and the gun will be destroyed. Someone would pay 6 times for it in parts than they will get from a damn buy back program.

[Dean Romig]

The Vulcan barrels were most definitely NOT fitted to tgat gun by Parker Bros. as evidenced by that very poorly fitted doll’s head rib extension and the ‘never before seen’ engraving style on it. The doll’s head was also filed down in a convex slope to meet with the top of the frame contour and the lever. Furthermore tgere are huge gaps between the frame and the doll’s head that you could drive a truck through.





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[Dean Romig]

Whoa! Slow down there, buckaroo. Before you condemn a shooter, have someone familiar with Parkers look at the gun In Hand.
Digital pictures on the internet can be very misleading.
The gun left the factory as a Damascus barrel Grade 3, and possibly the owner fell victim of the "Dangerous Damacus" hype. There are lots (and lots) of 1 1/2 AND 1 frame 12 gauge guns out there, so even if there was some profiling of the very end of the breach end of the barrels, there's still no less than the wall a 1 1/2 frame gun would have there.(Which is still more than a 1 frame gun) I'd be more concerned about profiling in the forcing cone area than at the end of the barrels. The fit of the dolls head 'appears' very good, and would belie the assumption a full 1/16" was removed. There doesn't appear to be any alteration of the dolls head.
The receiver has well more value than the sum of it's parts, and it's still possible to seek out a set of better fitting barrels. In any case, I don't see anything that says the receiver is definitely a 1 1/2 frame. The only way to know for certain is to measure the width of the bolsters,, and height of the standing breech.


…and the distance between firing pin centers.





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[Joe Dreisch]

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[Dylan Rhodes]

For the sake of my own education. How can you tell the barrels have been profiled to the frame and that material has been removed from the breech face? I can see clearly now that the rib has been contoured after reading the comments. I’ve been staring at the pictures for some time and I can’t see it, So I’d like to be able to identify it in the future. Is it the gap between the dolls head and the receiver? Could that not be caused by either removing the material from the dolls head only, removing material from the breach face only, or a combination of the two? Thanks in advance.

[edgarspencer]

…and the distance between firing pin centers..

So, are you saying the table in the 'book' is wrong?

[Brian Dudley]

For the sake of my own education. How can you tell the barrels have been profiled to the frame and that material has been removed from the breech face? I can see clearly now that the rib has been contoured after reading the comments. I’ve been staring at the pictures for some time and I can’t see it, So I’d like to be able to identify it in the future. Is it the gap between the dolls head and the receiver? Could that not be caused by either removing the material from the dolls head only, removing material from the breach face only, or a combination of the two? Thanks in advance.

A set of VH barrels would have light engraving ticks around the breech. They are gone. So at least enough material was removed to eliminate the engraving.

The amount of a gap there is at the back side of the dolls head is an indication of a couple things. That the barrels were set back a lot, or there was some crude filing done in that area. Or both. More than likely the former. When the barrels are set back on the breech, that are opens up some. It is what it is. This amount is a lot. There really is not anything functionally wrong with it. As long as the barrels are on face.

[Dylan Rhodes]

A set of VH barrels would have light engraving ticks around the breech. They are gone. So at least enough material was removed to eliminate the engraving.

The amount of a gap there is at the back side of the dolls head is an indication of a couple things. That the barrels were set back a lot, or there was some crude filing done in that area. Or both. More than likely the former. When the barrels are set back on the breech, that are opens up some. It is what it is. This amount is a lot. There really is not anything functionally wrong with it. As long as the barrels are on face.

that makes a lot of sense now that you mention the engraving. Thanks

[Dean Romig]

So, are you saying the table in the 'book' is wrong?


I’m saying that the quickest and easiest way to determine frame size is to measure the distance between firing pin centers in sixteenths of an inch, also shown on the pages you have included Edgar.






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[edgarspencer]

I’m saying that the quickest and easiest way to determine frame size is to measure the distance between firing pin centers in sixteenths of an inch, also shown on the pages you have included Edgar.

The question was, was it a One and a Half frame, or, a Two Frame. Since the table says the two frames sizes are both 1 1/8" firing pin spacing, measuring the pin spacing alone will not answer the question. The width across the bolsters, and the height of the standing breech are the two measurements needed to determine the frame size, but NOT the firing pin spacing.
So, back to my original question; Is the information in the serialization book incorrect?

[Dean Romig]

Excapt for the engraving, this is what an original doll's head rib extension would have looked like.

The second one is on the subject gun - compare the two to see the differences.


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[Jerry Harlow]

We would like to see the wood to see how many of the VH parts made it onto the DH frame.

[edgarspencer]

I’m saying that the quickest and easiest way to determine frame size is to measure the distance between firing pin centers in sixteenths of an inch, also shown on the pages you have included Edgar.

This really isn't accurate. At best, it may have been true, pre 1900, but with the addition of the 1 1/2 frame size, which fell in between the existing One, and Two frames, the firing pin spacing is the same as the Two Frame.
Again, in 1928, with the addition of the Half Frame, which at least numerically fell in between the 0 frame, and 1 frame, the firing pin spacing is is 1 1/16", the same as the One frame.
Since the question remains unanswered as to whether the subject gun in the original post was a 2 Frame, or a 1 1/2 Frame, using the firing pin spacing and the tables, the question remains a question, because regardless, the firing pin spacing, Horizontally, is still 1 1/8".
Because the standing breech dimension between 1 1/2 and 2 differs, the firing pins may be striking slightly off center, in the Vertical plane.
So, using the firing pin spacing alone may get you to the right neighborhood, it might not get you to the right house.