Dollar Grade Gun

[todd allen]

Need some help figuring this gun out. Grade, and value.
I've owned this one about 30 years now. Came to me from Chaddicks.
It's a 30" 12 gauge. Dimensions are very good at: 14" LOP, 1 3/4" DOC and 2 1/8" DAH
Herchel thought it was a "B", which we know it isn't. Oscar Gaddy thought it was a $250 Grade based on the tear drop inside the tear drop on the bolsters.
Once I get this one sorted out, I will be onto a 16 Ga project.
Here's some pics:
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[todd allen]

More pics:
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[todd allen]

2 more:
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114213

[Bill Murphy]

Wow. Hershel would like to have that one back. I would like to have it also. What a great gun.

[Mike Franzen]

What’s engraved on the shield. Beauty BTW

[Jim DiSpagno]

Based on what I see, it appears to be a $250.00 grade. Not quite a $300.00 grade due to lack of necessary engraving. A worthy project for refurbishing and chasing the engraving.

[Kevin McCormack]

Do you have a PGCA letter on this gun? If not, you should get one. This may very well be an "in-between" gun - one that was ordered out as a demo or "teaser" gun to show what could be done on the higher grade guns, especially by special order.

I once owned a 10 ga. 32" lifter gun in the 135XX range that was clearly above a $200 Grade gun but also not quite a $250 Grade gun. A careful search of the Parker record books revealed that it was an "embellished" $200 Grade gun (e.g., a bona fide "$225 Grade" gun) that had been sent to a high-volume CO dealer for display at his store for prospective customers desiring a high grade Parker Gun. It was massive 4-frame gun weighing in at just under 12 pounds. It was also incorrectly identified as a B Grade gun.

The gun was manufactured in 1878 and wound up in an estate sale in MO in the late 1940s; I purchased it from an heir of the man who bought it at auction in 1947. According to him, they used it to hunt cornfield pheasants in MO and IO routinely using 2 7/8" 10 ga. smokeless powder shells up through the 1970s, ignoring the Damascus barrels. The gun won the Best Original Hammer Parker Gun at the Concours d' Elegance of Fine Guns at The Vintage Cup, Orvis Sandanona, September 22, 2001.

[Dean Romig]

I'd call it a $200 quality gun, maybe a $225 QUALITY, or the predecessor to a B grade or grade 5.





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[Stan Hoover]

Beautiful gun, thanks for sharing!

[Wayne Owens]

I believe it is a $200 grade gun. I own a gun with a serial number 6xxx and the stock is stamped with the serial number and a 6 (for the grade) under the trigger guard. It might be worth a try to check yours to see if it is stamped.

[todd allen]

I don't think a letter is available on this gun, someone, Ron Kirby I think, found a note in an order book where it was traded in in 1927, if I recall correctly.
I have a copy of the page with the entry, but I can't figure it out. The writing might as well be in a foreign language.

[Dean Romig]

Can you post a picture of that page entry Todd?





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[todd allen]

Ok, let's see if I can do this from my phone

114229

[todd allen]

I hope someone here can make heads or tails out of the above ledger. The only thing I've gotten out of it is the serial number about mid page.

[Dean Weber]

I will take a stab at some of it. Here goes.

A. Mahan
Cortland, N.Y.
1 - 10 ga. w/ 30" damascus , pistol grip, weight 8/0 to 8/4, 14 3/4 lop, serial 7720 at $125.00
1 - 10 ga. w/ 30 inch, Less 1/4, can't make out this word, then serial 3130 at $125.00
3rd entry is some type of accessory for $3.50

I believe date at top of ledger is Oct, 8th 1877. I believe the entries on the left hand column are an order number. In this case order number 1922 received on Oct, 4th.

You can see the left hand column 4 digit numbers are sequential in 2's. I.E., 1920, 1922, 1924, 1926.

I may be all wrong, cool gun.

[todd allen]

Thanks, Dean. Not sure on the 10 gauge, as this one is a 12.
Might be easier to interpret the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[todd allen]

What’s engraved on the shield. Beauty BTW
Mike, it has the initials RGR

[Dean Romig]

My thoughts are the same as Dean's with the following changes...

8 - 8 1/4 lbs.
" (ditto mark for Dam) another " (ditto) for PG and Less 1/4 (inch? lb.?) and I can't make out that word either.

Most likely ordered by a business, hence the $125.00 wholesale price.




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[Dean Weber]

A couple oddities to consider. I assume this is a page from an order book? Maybe not. The top gun on the page 10688 and the bottom gun on the page 10282 look to be vintage 1877 which corresponds to date on the top of the page. The subject gun 3130 is 1874 and the gun 7720 is 1876. Maybe both guns were returned at some point and were sold at a discount.

My intent was to decipher the words on the order page, not contradict Todd's gun. The reason I say 10 gauge is in the following picture which I stole from Josh L's listing of the Meachem guns. The 8 guns were 10 ga. 32" barrel guns. See picture.

https://i.imgur.com/VzpZXwB.jpg

[Mike Koneski]

Mike, it has the initials RGR

Looked like RGT, but you can see it better in person that we can in the two photos.

[Dean Weber]

My thoughts are the same as Dean's with the following changes...

8 - 8 1/4 lbs.
" (ditto mark for Dam) another " (ditto) for PG and Less 1/4 (inch? lb.?) and I can't make out that word either.

Most likely ordered by a business, hence the $125.00 wholesale price.




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Dean,
I think you got it on the ditto marks, now that I look again!

If you look above the entry to A. Mahan, you will see where a gun had the Less 1/4 and the case for it was Less 20. I think these are discounts of 25% and 20%.

[Randy G Roberts]

Mike, it has the initials RGR

Hmmmm. Who might we know with those initials? :whistle:

[Stan Hoover]

Hmmmm. Who might we know with those initials? :whistle:

I don’t know that I remember ever hearing your middle name:corn:

Oops, after quoting you, you’re name pops up with middle initial, maybe we have something going on here?

[todd allen]

It looks like an "RGR"
114250

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Looking back at some of the hammer guns, I have owned, I believe it to be a 200.00 dollar grade gun, The 225.00 had more engraving, does it have a steel butt plate? Gary

[todd allen]

It has a skeleton steel butt plate.

[Dean Romig]

It has a skeleton steel butt plate.



As it should for the grades above 3.





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[todd allen]

If I put this on Gunbroker, I will have to say not sure on grade, either 200 or 250 dollar grade.
I have no idea on value, I really don't know where to set the reserve.

[Dean Romig]

Your reserve should be $4k, or whatever you paid for it, and let the sky be the limit...


Can you show the sides of the action, lock plates and floor plate or trigger plate in the frame??




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[todd allen]

I'll get it out a little later, and get some pics.

[todd allen]

Hi Dean, I finally got a chance to take a couple more pics. Not very good quality, but you know I struggle with taking good pictures ;-)
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[Dean Romig]

Really nice!!

Thanks Todd for the pics!





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[Chuck Bishop]

The problem identifying these early S/N guns is that nothing had really been standardized until a few years later. Some of these old hammer guns had very sparse engraving, some had quite a bit more. The tear drop on the bolsters sure looks like it would be higher than a grade 3 but the gun in the order book (7720), when I looked it up in the stock book clearly shows D/3. The stock book entry for 3130 isn't any help. Roy Gunther when he copied and edited the stock books has this gun as having Laminated barrels and it's an 11 ga. gun. How he determined this I have no clue. Many of the errors in the Sterilization Book is due to this. He wrote in red ink "L", and "11" for steel and gauge. I did see in one of the pictures "11" on the barrel. Could it really be an 11 gauge gun??? The order book shows it as a 10ga. gun, the stock book (Gunther) lists it as an 11 ga. gun and Todd says it's a 12 ga. gun. Your deciphering of the order book entry for 3130 is correct. There are 2 small words or abbreviations which I'm pretty certain the first word is "old" by I can't make out the second word or it's an abbreviation. Both guns sold for $125 but that price only matches a $125 Dollar Gun grade with a 12ga. Damascus gun in the 1877 price list and that's before the 25% discount. Maybe they were trying to get rid of 3130 which was a higher grade gun and charged the price of a 12ga. grade 3.

Have I confused everyone?:bigbye:

[Chuck Bishop]

One thing that may help is post a picture of the fore-end checkering pattern to see how many points it has.

[Mike Koneski]

"Many of the errors in the Sterilization Book is due to this."

STERILIZATION BOOK!!! SAY IT AIN'T SO!! :shock::eek:

[Chuck Bishop]

Everyone who has the book could be at risk.

Thanks for the correction Mike. Next time I won't type so fast!

[todd allen]

Here's the fore end, and the SS Butt Plate
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[Dean Romig]

11 gauge Parkers are one of the points of focus of Richard Hoover. He had cataloged several original 11 gauge guns.

D3 could have simply been the designation of 3-iron crolle Damascus barrels rather than the actual grade.

He really created a lot of obfuscation by his red entries, some of them were contradictory to the actual records.





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The problem identifying these early S/N guns is that nothing had really been standardized until a few years later. Some of these old hammer guns had very sparse engraving, some had quite a bit more. The tear drop on the bolsters sure looks like it would be higher than a grade 3 but the gun in the order book (7720), when I looked it up in the stock book clearly shows D/3. The stock book entry for 3130 isn't any help. Roy Gunther when he copied and edited the stock books has this gun as having Laminated barrels and it's an 11 ga. gun. How he determined this I have no clue. Many of the errors in the Sterilization Book is due to this. He wrote in red ink "L", and "11" for steel and gauge. I did see in one of the pictures "11" on the barrel. Could it really be an 11 gauge gun??? The order book shows it as a 10ga. gun, the stock book (Gunther) lists it as an 11 ga. gun and Todd says it's a 12 ga. gun. Your deciphering of the order book entry for 3130 is correct. There are 2 small words or abbreviations which I'm pretty certain the first word is "old" by I can't make out the second word or it's an abbreviation. Both guns sold for $125 but that price only matches a $125 Dollar Gun grade with a 12ga. Damascus gun in the 1877 price list and that's before the 25% discount. Maybe they were trying to get rid of 3130 which was a higher grade gun and charged the price of a 12ga. grade 3.

Have I confused everyone?:bigbye:

[Dan Steingraber]

That’s a beautiful gun.

[Chuck Bishop]

Dean if your referring to D3 found in the stock book for 7720, it definitely means Damascus grade 3. What's your opinion on the "11" on the underside of the left barrel?

[todd allen]

I mic'ed the chambers, and they are dead-on 12 gauge, so we might have a mystery here. Plus, I've been shooting this gun for over 30 years with 12 g ammo, and have reloaded the empties with no signs of oversized chambers.
The bores are certainly oversized for a 12, and the chokes are a very long taper in both barrels.
I suspect that this was a pigeon gun, so there's no telling what interior mods might have been done over the years.
BTW, this gun patterns nicely, and kills pigeons in the ring with authority!

[todd allen]

Some more info: The barrels weigh 4.14 lbs, the FE 0.54 lbs, and the receiver/butt stock 3.86 lbs, for a total weight of 8.54 lbs.
Based on being a 3 frame, and weighing 8 1/2 + lbs, I'm guessing this gun was built for some heavy duty work.

[Arthur Shaffer]

This gun was almost certainly made with 11 gauge barrels. The Parker Story discusses this in some detail. Part of the reason was the original chambering with thin wall brass shell ID. The 12 gauge standard was an 11 gauge barrel and the 10 gauge standard was a 9 gauge barrel. It even gives a date in the 1890's when there are notes in the factory books stating that future barrels would be to gauge unless stamped "O" to signify the older size. It's pretty explicit in the book, but I have found no way to verify it.

[Wayne Owens]

Serial #3371 has bores that are .756" and 12 gauge standard shells fit perfectly in the chambers. The Serialization book lists it as a 12 gauge. 12B shells rattle in the chambers.

[todd allen]

Wayne, those dimensions are pretty much the same as my gun.

[Arthur Shaffer]

As far as I know, the entry of 12 gauge means that it is chambered for a normal 12 gauge shell. It has no meaning as to the actual bore diameter of the barrel. I don't own a lot of Parkers, but most of the ones I do are from this time period. None of them have regular 12 gauge or 10 gauge actual bores. If the records from that period were listed as actual bore diameters, most of the early guns would be 11 or 9 gauge.

[todd allen]

Looks like this gun is changing hands. More later.

[Dean Romig]

I believe, like Art S., that it is chambered for the 12A shell (it even shows 12A shells as being part of the order) but the barrels bored to 11 gauge.
Todd says it is a 3-frame even though at 8 - 8 1/4 lbs it would seem to be on the 2-frame.





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[todd allen]

Dean, what I thought to be a "3" on the lug appears to be an "S", so I'm not sure.
I did a measurement between the firing pins, and the spacing appears to be 1.17" center to center.
The gun remains a bit of a mystery, but I believe it to be an important piece of the puzzle of the Parker company's high grade gun evolution from back in the 1870s

[Dean Romig]

I agree, it most definitely is that Todd.
1.17” = 1 3/16” and that is the pin spacing for a 3-frame.





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[todd allen]

Here's another view of the lug, where I expected the frame size mark to be
116606

[todd allen]

This gun now officially belongs to someone else. One of our members.
Is there any reason why this gun would need to be shipped to an FFL?

[Dean Romig]

Having been manufactured well before 1898 it is considered to be an antique by the BATFE and does not need to be shipped to an FFL holder. It can be shipped directly to the purchasing party's home address.






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[Stan Hoover]

You know those jitters on the first date…… well, maybe it wasn’t quite like that, but it is always exciting when taking a gun out for the first time:)

I can report that this fine Parker doesn’t miss any targets when the shooter points it correctly. It will crush targets when the bird is centered correctly :cool:

Thanks Todd for allowing me to enjoy this fine Parker!

[todd allen]

I'm glad to hear that the old girl is working for you. She worked well for me, even managed a 90 x 100 in a registered shoot.
I was an NSCA AA shooter at the time, so signed up under a fake name, and shot in Hunter Class.
It was a hoot standing at the leader board, and hearing other shooters asking "Who is this Arthur DuBray?"
It was a fun inside joke with my friends.

[allen newell]

Beautiful gun