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Harry Collins
01-03-2023, 01:11 PM
We sold the farms two years ago and purchased a house next door to your youngest. They have two dwarfs, girl and boy, now five and eight respectively. The boy, Webb, has been dying to shoot shotguns with us. I wanted to wait until he was ten. His father and I were going to Elk Creek in Owenton, Kentucky to shoot in a monthly vintage shoot and I had invited Webb to come along as our push the button trapper. Last fall's dove hunts were shot using my fathers 20 Trojan with 3/4 oz of 8's @ 1075 fps, a very effective load. I took a hand full of these shells along with a Mossberg Youth 20 pump and hid them from Webb. We came to a station Webb could stand behind the trap with a straight away. I had been harping about pulling the trigger as soon as you are on the target. JTPFT! Just Pull The F'n Trigger. His first shot was filled with trepidation as his mother had tried to deter him with tails of recoil. He broke the target as he did the next three times I let him shoot. The fifth bird he missed. He remained avid, but I feared recoil might be a factor. Sadly the video's are an invalid file.

Andrew Sacco
01-03-2023, 01:50 PM
Harry, our youngest shot a Mossberg youth pump 20g and it pummeled her even with light reloads. I got her a Stevens O/U 28g youth, that was as bad if not worse. I do find 28g to be a sharp recoil. She's a tiny thing. Finally I got the Weatherby 20g semi auto youth gun SA08 and she can shoot and shoot and shoot and recoil isn't an issue. The best $600 I ever spent to get her to shoot with me. Plus, she loves telling the old men, "Don't know if you noticed, but you just got beat on that station by a little girl..."

Mills Morrison
01-03-2023, 01:55 PM
They all get ready on their own time. Some are ready at 8. Some are not ready at age 60 and after 50 years of miraculously accident free experience. I've seen both types.

Mike Poindexter
01-03-2023, 03:59 PM
The sharpest kicking gun I ever shot was a Stevens 20ga with a Tenite stock. I second the semi-auto route to minimize recoil, although by age ten Webb should be able to handle your Trojan 20. My ten year old cut his teeth on an 0 frame 16 with light loads. Have fun!

John Davis
01-03-2023, 04:04 PM
I ruined my oldest daughter for shooting by starting her too young. Fortunately she took to fly fishing.

Mills Morrison
01-03-2023, 04:07 PM
Harry was almost ruined by starting too early, but he came back. Don't give up, but don't force it and let it happen. That worked for Harry. When he was ready to try again, we started with a .22 and moved up from there and that proved a good system

CraigThompson
01-03-2023, 04:16 PM
I got a 22 at 7 and a 12 gauge single barrel at 8 . I never shot a shotgun smaller than a 12 until I was maybe 16 . That old H&R 12 32” full choke single barrel would thump the tar out of you but after awhile my pop and grand pop could not get a clay target out far enough where I couldn’t get it and that was by the time I was 10 . But in hindsight in the late 60’s early 70’s a kid had nowhere near the stuff to take his attention as they do now . This may sound absurd but I actually looked forward to the bruise that gun would give me after shooting 30-50 clay targets .

Ed Blake
01-03-2023, 04:22 PM
I started my son Edward on an H&R 410 at nine. He never looked back and is still shooting

Andrew Sacco
01-03-2023, 04:47 PM
I gave her a long break then after getting the gas gun let her shoot one or two rounds was all. After loading a dummy round the second time and not seeing a flinch when she pulled the trigger I quit again for a week. Then slowly got it to where she can now shoot 50 rounds of skeet before she gets tired. She's 14 years old and 65lbs so she's a waif.

Stan Hoover
01-03-2023, 04:52 PM
I believe if I remember correctly,
I started Shane around 9 or 10 with a bolt action rifle in 17 Mach II, then shortly there after started him with an A grade 20 gauge Lefever.

He dealt with some bruises on his shoulder, but I left him tell me when he had enough, never tried to push him further than he was comfortable.

Of course he now enjoys shooting the 14 lb 8 gauge when we attend the shoots, but at 17 he's growing way faster than his dad was ready for

bob lyons
01-03-2023, 06:41 PM
When my children were young I picked up a youth model 1100 20 gauge which they all used until they were big enough to shoulder a standard size gun.
This gun worked great, some what a heavy gun and recoil was good, now I’m planning to try the RST 2.5 “ shells for the next generation.
Now with a large group of grandchildren coming up the 1100 has come out of the closet or again.
The next best one is a Bennelli 28 gauge legacy very light weight and very low recoil.
Keep the recoil as low as possible for kids.

Bob Kimble
01-03-2023, 07:31 PM
When my children were young I picked up a youth model 1100 20 gauge which they all used until they were big enough to shoulder a standard size gun.
This gun worked great, some what a heavy gun and recoil was good, now I’m planning to try the RST 2.5 “ shells for the next generation.
Now with a large group of grandchildren coming up the 1100 has come out of the closet or again.
The next best one is a Bennelli 28 gauge legacy very light weight and very low recoil.
Keep the recoil as low as possible for kids.

Bob, I had an issue with ejecting the spent shells with RST's in my 1100 special field 20's and 12's. Some times they would kick them out and sometimes not.

Harry Collins
01-03-2023, 08:07 PM
Webb has been taught safety since he was three, just like his older first cousins. At age five he started shooting an AR pistol with .22 LR conversion. He comes next door and we shoot the BB guns in the basement. I'm still working on his form, but we both take success anywhere we can find it. He is so avid, I hate to thwart his enthusiasm. It is doubtful he will be able to accompany me more than a few time between now and summer. I will keep it to no more than four shots an excursion. Attached is a picture of Webb with BB gun in the basement (I put safety glasses on him) and one of Will when he was 11 with his first dove and the gun Webb was shooting.

Victor Wasylyna
01-03-2023, 10:58 PM
These days, if you are not set up to reload, your options are very limited. Low recoil loads are hard to find.

My 8 year old quickly warmed up to the Stevens youth model 28 gauge over/under. (Thanks, Andy!) But only after we worked up a very light load. The standard 3/4 oz factory loads moving at ~1200 fps were mean on his shoulder.

I tried him on a 20 gauge shell-chunker, but the loads were either too unpleasant for him or too weak to reliably cycle the action.

Or perhaps he is just his father’s son and understands that 28 gauges are for gentlemen, while 20 gauges are for girls.

-Victor

Bill Murphy
01-04-2023, 04:03 AM
Bob K., enlarge the gas holes in the barrel a bit and the RST or other light loads should function just fine.

Harry Collins
01-04-2023, 11:08 AM
I was trying to sneak around and post a video of Webb shooting, but my efforts failed.

Daniel Carter
01-04-2023, 03:28 PM
I have a friend who introduced me to reduced loads many years ago and i found them very effective on clays. I do not use them hunting. My eldest granddaughter was started at 12 with a 1/2 oz. 20 ga. load and was very comfortable with it. After 2 sessions i went to 3/4 and said nothing about it then to 7/8 saying nothing about it or recoil. She now, at 26 shoots anything without any thought of recoil.
I believe if started on a very mild load with no discussion of recoil and working your way up to a normal load there will be no problem later.
This has worked on 4 grandchildren so far and 1 adult woman.

scott kittredge
01-04-2023, 04:06 PM
I believe if started on a very mild load with no discussion of recoil and working your way up to a normal load there will be no problem later.
This has worked on 4 grandchildren so far and 1 adult woman.[/QUOTE]

Yes, dont even bring recoil up, they see people shooting and know what guns do when you shoot one. If you start talking about a gun "kicking" than thats all they think about and not hitting at what they are shooting at. They will have enough on there mind just learning to shoot a shotgun or deer rifle.
scott

Andrew Sacco
01-04-2023, 04:33 PM
These days, if you are not set up to reload, your options are very limited. Low recoil loads are hard to find.

My 8 year old quickly warmed up to the Stevens youth model 28 gauge over/under. (Thanks, Andy!) But only after we worked up a very light load. The standard 3/4 oz factory loads moving at ~1200 fps were mean on his shoulder.

I tried him on a 20 gauge shell-chunker, but the loads were either too unpleasant for him or too weak to reliably cycle the action.

Or perhaps he is just his father’s son and understands that 28 gauges are for gentlemen, while 20 gauges are for girls.

-Victor

Your welcome Victor. At the time Gia was about 50lbs soaking wet and that gun hammered her. I wasn't set up to reload. The 20g gas gun with reloads are just great. Now if I could only find more Green Dot.

Stan Hillis
01-04-2023, 09:07 PM
Grandson Jackson was shagging doves for me at 6 and 7 years of age. By age 8 I thought he was ready to shoot a little. I had won a Stoeger Uplander .410 at a sporting clays shoot so I shortened the LOP to be more suitable for him. I explained lead as simply as I could and let him watch a couple birds off the trap. Then, on his first clay target shot attempt, he smoked it. A few weeks later he joined me on the dove field and sat close, so I could monitor him. This was the result. He killed all these on the wing with a .410, with 1/2 oz. shot ......... on his first attempt at shooting doves. Many decry the .410 as unsuitable for a kid to start wingshooting. I started with one, and Jackson did, too. No problems for either of us. Can't be too bad. BTW, I began shooting a .410 the next year (again), in the early season, just to prove to him it wasn't a "kid's gun".

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/70600_800x600.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/70600_800x600/)

charlie cleveland
01-04-2023, 09:39 PM
good shooting with that 410.....charlie

Jeff Elder
01-10-2023, 09:53 AM
Lots of bad habits begin by starting to young that they will spend thousands of dollars later in life trying to fix. Flinching, canting, dads that are right handed teaching a kid left handed to shoot right. As a waterfowl guide and avid sporting clays shooter I see it all. But like others say “ they are ready to shoot when they are ready to shoot” that said I think the 28 is hands down the best to start on and the 410 or 20 is the worst.

Andrew Sacco
01-10-2023, 10:09 AM
Lots of bad habits begin by starting to young that they will spend thousands of dollars later in life trying to fix. Flinching, canting, dads that are right handed teaching a kid left handed to shoot right. As a waterfowl guide and avid sporting clays shooter I see it all. But like others say “ they are ready to shoot when they are ready to shoot” that said I think the 28 is hands down the best to start on and the 410 or 20 is the worst.

I'm likely far less experienced than you, but I'd argue that a 20 in a gas gun is the best way to start as long as the gun fits. The reason is that the kid, with #9 shot and open chokes, has a far better chance of success at breaking a target and that's when the magic starts. 28 is so hard to hit and punchy, and a .410 forget it, no chance to hit anything.

Jeff Elder
01-10-2023, 10:40 AM
I'm likely far less experienced than you, but I'd argue that a 20 in a gas gun is the best way to start as long as the gun fits. The reason is that the kid, with #9 shot and open chokes, has a far better chance of success at breaking a target and that's when the magic starts. 28 is so hard to hit and punchy, and a .410 forget it, no chance to hit anything.


Problem with a 20 is most youth models stocks just put massive recoil on the shoulder, and most dads are way to cheap to buy a youth auto, but then again those same dads would also be to cheap to buy 28 shells:rotf: so it boils down to two types of dads.
Dads that buy auto loaders or dads that are from the get tough or die school of thought.

Harry Collins
01-10-2023, 10:46 AM
Jeff makes a good point. The youth pump I have for the younguns weighs a little over 5 pounds and a standard 20 load of 7/8 oz at 1200 fps is way too much in it. That, I feel, is mitigated by the 3/4 oz at 1075 fps and offers little punishment.

John Dallas
01-10-2023, 04:17 PM
When I was teaching Hunter Ed, my experience was that you should have the heaviest small bore you can find. We couldn't tailor loads, so weight was the answer. For that matter, (I'm a recoil hater myself) a round of skeet with my CSMC RBL 20 gauge and factory loads is as much as I want

Scott Chapman
01-10-2023, 06:36 PM
We started all the 4-H Shooting Sports kids on Beretta 391 Reduced Length gas operated semi auto 20 gauge with standard 7/8 oz.

Those guns all have shortened LOP and 24" barrels. If they were strong enough to mount the gun properly, they were able to withstand the recoil without much problem.

Put the kids on Stations 1 and 7 with cylinder choke and let them have fun.

Rick Roemer
01-10-2023, 06:37 PM
After a few years of Savage Cub model .22 squirrel hunts, I started my daughter with a Benelli montefeltro in 20 gauge. It came with a short “youth/ladies” stock and a “normal” length stock. I also used light RST shells. I feel like this was a good route to go even though it was a pretty expensive first gun for a kid. she’s 21 now, still has the gun in near new condition and probably will have it forever. I always figured if it didn’t work out a quality gun like that could be sold fairly easily since I could never find one used when I was looking.

Bottom line - you gotta go with what works for your kid. Keep it fun!

Stan Hillis
01-11-2023, 07:11 AM
and a .410 forget it, no chance to hit anything.

:rotf::rotf::rotf:

"Negatives are normally the easiest thing to disprove because you just need one single counter-example and that disproves it."

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/70641_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/70641_600x400/)

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/70643_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/70643_600x400/)

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/70644_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/70644_600x400/)

More can be provided upon request ..........

Andrew Sacco
01-11-2023, 08:22 AM
:rotf::rotf::rotf:

"Negatives are normally the easiest thing to disprove because you just need one single counter-example and that disproves it."

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/70641_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/70641_600x400/)

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/70643_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/70643_600x400/)

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/70644_600x400.jpg (https://www.jpgbox.com/page/70644_600x400/)

More can be provided upon request ..........

Stan, we're talking about KID and NEW SHOOTER. I'll guarantee more success with a 20g and open choke than a .410.

Stan Hillis
01-11-2023, 06:22 PM
Stan, we're talking about KID and NEW SHOOTER. I'll guarantee more success with a 20g and open choke than a .410.

Andrew, before, you said this:

and a .410 forget it, no chance to hit anything.

Big difference in saying "no chance to hit anything", and saying "more success with a 20". I was responding to your former claim of "no chance to hit anything". You evidently missed the previous photo of my grandson after his FIRST dove shoot, and the fact that he was 8 years old. I think that qualifies him to be in the category you delineated (KID and NEW SHOOTER). So, how do you explain his success on his first dove shoot? I mean, he checks off all the boxes you put forth, KID and NEW SHOOTER.

With that I'll bow out. I'm not going to pursue this any further because the game keeps changing.

Best to you, SRH
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