CLASSIC AMERICAN SXS POLL

[Stephen Hodges]

This poll has been running on ShotgunWorld. Only 193 votes so far. Doesn't mean much, but interesting. And 16 gauge is in the lead!


If you could own one classic American double barrel, which one and which gauge would it be in?


A. H. Fox 20% [ 39 ]
Browning 2% [ 3 ]
Ithaca 2% [ 4 ]
L. C. Smith 14% [ 27 ]
Lefever 5% [ 10 ]
Parker Bros. 8% [ 16 ]
Winchester - Mod. 21 8% [ 16 ] x
10ga 1%[ 2 ]
12ga 6% [ 12 ]
16ga 17% [ 33 ]
20ga 10% [ 20 ]
28ga 5% [ 10 ]
.410 1% [ 1 ]

[Dean Romig]

Graded Parker Bros. straight grip, DT, twenty-eight gauge, 28" on the 00-frame.

[Pete Lester]

I am not too impressed with those poll results. If one is limited to a single doublegun, something that would have to be used for everything, turkey, geese, ducks, pheasants, quail, dove, trap, skeet etc and even deer hunting. The vote has already been taken in the marketplace, the 12ga has dominated the shotgun market in doubles and repeaters for more than 100 years. By virtue of it's popularity it is the most economical to shoot as well.

As far as which manufacturer, again not very objective. We all know the Elsie had a flawed stock design from the get go that plagues those guns to this day, yet they are the 2nd choice for only one gun?

Now as far as Fox being the #1 choice? What if that one gun were to break? Tell me where all the original Fox parts are if they need repair? Thanks to the DelGrego family an inventory of critical parts for Parker's still exists.

If I am stuck to one classic American doublegun it would be a 12ga Parker, probably a V, P or G cause it's gonna get some hard use if it's all I have.

[Dean Romig]

If one is limited to a single doublegun, something that would have to be used for everything, turkey, geese, ducks, pheasants, quail, dove, trap, skeet etc and even deer hunting.


Hey Duke - Cool your jets. :rotf:

That's not the question that was asked.

For the kind of shooting each of us does (for me it's skeet, casual SC, grouse and woodcock) what would be the choice?

[Stephen Hodges]

Thats whst's great about these "polls" per se, they generate lots of discussion:rotf:

[Mark Ouellette]

I own Parkers, Smiths, Foxes, and Lefevers. While I own more Parkers, I like them all. Each maker/design has it's strengths and weaknesses in both physical and fuctional terms.

Parkers are a grand gun with good engraving from the E/G Grade 2 guns and up. The engraved birds are however not from this planet. Parkers have far too many internal parts. The stocks do split at the head but are easy to pin or run a bolt through.

Lower grade, especially post 1913 Smiths, those with named grades such as Field and Ideal, definately are prone to stock splitting at the rear apex of the lock plates. The higher grades had better craftsmanship on the inletting and tend to split less.

The Fox is a simple design. These guns have a well earned reputation. They are also easy to repair.

Lefevers, especially later ones, are perhaps the best designed American SxS. They have few internal parts to wear and/or break and the lock plates are easily removed for cleaning the action. Their stocks are equally as easy to remove. That is not true for Parkers and especially Smiths.

Lefevers have external adjusting screws for the sear engagement and to shut off the automatic safety. Perhaps the best feature is the Lefever "Fully Compensated Action". This is possible by a ball and socket in which the barrels and action are connected. The ball within the action is easily adjustable. Why, why, why didn't other makers employ this feature?
- Also, all (or at least most) makers paid royalities to Lefever to use their patents. That's why early Lefevers are marked "Lefever Arms Company Maker and Patentee".

Those of you who do not or have not ever owned and serviced the other maker's guns please do not cast uninformed stones!

[charlie cleveland]

it would be a hard choice for me...but if all i can own is one side by side i guess it would have to be a 3 inch lc smith 28 inch barells and improved cly and extra full.... i also like the lowly stevens.... charlie

[Pete Lester]

Hey Duke - Cool your jets. :rotf:

That's not the question that was asked.

For the kind of shooting each of us does (for me it's skeet, casual SC, grouse and woodcock) what would be the choice?

Kind of a shame you have such limited pursuits. You oughta get out more Dean :rotf:

[King Brown]

I may be close to the average North American shotgun shooter, influenced by peers and consumerism, of a craft not known for its business acumen. In the beginning, it was enough to have a shotgun and it was mostly doubles then. I bought one of the first Winchester Model 50s in Canada, then 1100s and went back to doubles because I didn't like the mechanical clickety-clacks. Doubles seemed more a part of me. What we read and what experts say are a powerful influences on our preferences. My guess is the poll reflects that---and maybe age (Fox and Elsie) as we go to smaller gauges. Parker placement is a puzzle. I don't consider the Browning or Winchester as classics.

[Mark Ouellette]

King,

Perhaps Parker ownership is limited compared to Smiths and Foxes? There were many times as many Smiths built as were Parkers. As I understand, Parker was reluctant to enter into the affordably priced portion of the market.

As for Winchester model 21's, they should be a great gun since they had decades to learn from any mistakes the other makers made.

[Dean Romig]

Kind of a shame you have such limited pursuits. You oughta get out more Dean :rotf:


I quite agree Pete. Time... It's all about economy of time. My life is a complex exercise in multi-tasking for now so, until I am able to retire and (hopefully) enjoy more "free" time, I have to settle for what sort of shooting I want do in the little time I am able to take for myself. Someday though... :whistle:

[King Brown]

Model 21s are great guns but they don't enter the pantheon of classics for me because of what I consider lacking harmonious proportions, a sort of "clubiness," as I also feel about the Brownings I've seen. Neither make comes near the magic balance and levitation of my hammer Parker 16 0 frame---nor do any of the others.

[todd allen]

I own Parkers, Smiths, Foxes, and Lefevers. While I own more Parkers, I like them all. Each maker/design has it's strengths and weaknesses in both physical and fuctional terms.

Parkers are a grand gun with good engraving from the E/G Grade 2 guns and up. The engraved birds are however not from this planet. Parkers have far too many internal parts. The stocks do split at the head but are easy to pin or run a bolt through.

Lower grade, especially post 1913 Smiths, those with named grades such as Field and Ideal, definately are prone to stock splitting at the rear apex of the lock plates. The higher grades had better craftsmanship on the inletting and tend to split less.

The Fox is a simple design. These guns have a well earned reputation. They are also easy to repair.

Lefevers, especially later ones, are perhaps the best designed American SxS. They have few internal parts to wear and/or break and the lock plates are easily removed for cleaning the action. Their stocks are equally as easy to remove. That is not true for Parkers and especially Smiths.

Lefevers have external adjusting screws for the sear engagement and to shut off the automatic safety. Perhaps the best feature is the Lefever "Fully Compensated Action". This is possible by a ball and socket in which the barrels and action are connected. The ball within the action is easily adjustable. Why, why, why didn't other makers employ this feature?
- Also, all (or at least most) makers paid royalities to Lefever to use their patents. That's why early Lefevers are marked "Lefever Arms Company Maker and Patentee".

Those of you who do not or have not ever owned and serviced the other maker's guns please do not cast uninformed stones!

This was such a great response, that I decided just to quote the whole post.
I have owned all of those guns as well, with the exception of the Lefever.
There is no question that the Parker Gun has some magical ability to cast a spell. (Ask me how I know)
How the Lefever managed to make it all the way thru the last century, without the tribute it deserves is truly a mystery to me. I will one day own one.
I have hunted with LC's, Fox, Winchester M 21, Parkers, etc. etc. I will always own Parkers, but my go-to gun for the past decade or so, is a beautiful little H&H Royal 12 bore. 30" bbls, 6 lbs 5 oz. I drag this gun all over the place chasing birds, and it is by far the fastest to the shoulder, and the deadliest gun I have ever shot. I even back-packed it up in the mountains of Colorado for Blue Grouse. (10,500 ft elevation)

[Dave Suponski]

Allow me to add my two cents worth.I like others have owned Parkers,Fox's, Ithaca's and Smith's. I have never owned a Lefever but a close friend has a late boxlock Lefever 20 gauge and the gun is simply wonderful. If I ever have an opportunity to acquire one I will be very seriously tempted. All the American guns have their strong points and weaknesses. I like the style and simplicity of the Fox gun and the adjust ability of the Lefever and we all know the Winchester 21 is hell for stout. But Parker is my love.

For me if I could only own one gun I think it would be a fairly light 16 gauge 1 frame graded gun with 28" barrels and a half pistol grip stock equipped with double triggers. I think it would be versatile enough for most anything I ask of it. The 1 frame would give me enough options on loads to put through it.

Wow! Thank God I can have more than one though....:rolleyes:

[Rich Anderson]

As I ponder the reality of semi retirement, the current economy, and the future generations of SXS collectors and shooters in relation to the safe full-o-guns and the investment they represent I have come to the solemn conclusion that haveing only one gun is an impossible consideration. Here is why. Grouse hunting IMHO requires an open choked, straight stocked gun of no larger than a 20 guage or a 28 or better yet both. Pheasant's rain from the sky via a bevy of 16's and 20's. Rabbitts roll through the powdered snow after meeting a charge of 6's from any of the above mentioned guages. My go to SC gun is a GHE 16 skeet.

While I have several 12's (I'm really not a 12ga person) my favorite is a grade 3 hammer gun. The one guage I could live without however is the 12 but living with only one shotgun is impossible. Now don't get me started on rifles:whistle:

[Tom Will]

I wonder how many can say that they have shot all of the guns mentioned, Parker, Fox LC Smith,Lefever,Ithaca,Baker,Iver Johnson,Winchester,Remington,Colt, the list goes on and on. For me, I think I like I shoot the Parkers and the Winchesters best. So many doubles and so little time and money.

[Rich Anderson]

A small bore Ithaca grade 3 or higher is on my wish list.

[Pete Lester]

I wonder if the poll results will look different when an inevitable ban of lead shot is put in place :whistle:

[John Truitt]

I wonder how many can say that they have shot all of the guns mentioned, Parker, Fox LC Smith,Lefever,Ithaca,Baker,Iver Johnson,Winchester,Remington,Colt, the list goes on and on. For me, I think I like I shoot the Parkers and the Winchesters best. So many doubles and so little time and money.

I have shot all the above except for the Colt and other stuff like meridans, baltimore arms, midlans (did I spell that right?), etc.
I was fortunate enough to have a father who appreciated all of the above and enjoyed shooting them for hunting (hard hunting) and clays and always allowed me full use of any of them whenever I wanted.
It was with many years of full use of these different brands that allowed me to find what felt best to me and that I shot the best and that "talked" to me.
We are lucky to have so many different types to choose from. They are like people, many different kinds. Find what lights you up. It may be just one or only from one maker, or like my dad it might be all of them.

I for one agree with Mr. Lester. 12 ga is king and for me make it a Parker. :)

[CraigThompson]

Well lets see !

I'm VERY partial to the 10 , 16 and 28 gauges .

I shoot skeet , trap , some birds and OF COURSE deer !

So I'd need one that could be used for all of the above .

I have a nice old W.C.Scott 10 gauge damascus gun with 28" barrels thats done very nicely on the skeet field , dove fields and the deer stand !
But it's not american !

I have a Parker 16 gauge GH damascus gun that I've not really done a whole lot with even though I've owned it better then 7 years now . But it should be great for birds and skeet with an outside shot at deer !

The 28 which I no longer have a gun chambered for would pretty much be a bird and skeet only item !

So then for me the ultimate American made side by side would have to be a Parker BHE in 10 gauge with 28" fluid steel barrels choked IC/M with 3 1/2" chambers . Now I doubt very seriousely that they made a BHE in 10 gauge with 3 1/2" chambers choked IC & M but it is a fantasy isn't it !
To make it easier any Parker GH grade or better in 10 gauge that was 90% or better with 28" barrels damascus or fluid steel , choked IC/M , 2 7/8" or 3 1/2" chambers !

[CraigThompson]

I wonder how many can say that they have shot all of the guns mentioned, Parker, Fox LC Smith,Lefever,Ithaca,Baker,Iver Johnson,Winchester,Remington,Colt, the list goes on and on. For me, I think I like I shoot the Parkers and the Winchesters best. So many doubles and so little time and money.


Hmmmm good question !

I own Parkers , Fox , Smith's , Lefever's , Iver Johnson and Ithaca doubles . And of those I've by far shot the Parkers the most !

I however I also have a taste from euro doubles !
W.C.Scott , Westley Richards , W.W. Greener , Kettner , Kerner and Francotte .

And to be totally 100% honest I've killed far more birds with the Westley Richards and W.W. Greener then all of the american doubles I own combined . The only deer I've ever killed with buckshot in a side by side was done in with my grandfathers old W.C Scott 10 gauge damascus gun this past season !

So while I have loved and revered Parkers for about 35 of my 49 years on this earth I am also an advocate of the British double (well atleast the midrange ones , never could afford the big name ones ).

While I'm blowing steam . I owned a pair of Pre War Darne's in 12 and 20 for a couple years . Lovely little pieces to carry in the grouse coverts , the 20 was under 6 pounds . In the grouse woods they shot well and comfortably . But on the skeet field that little 20 gauge Darne would have you shaking by the time you had completed ONE ROUND !

Yeah that was a bit more then my 2 cents so lets call it a nickel :whistle:

[calvin humburg]

Hummmmm