Winchester 21

[David Long]

Winchester 21 or Parker ?

[Dean Romig]

Parker, no question.

[Dave Suponski]

There is no question that a Model 21 is a well built gun and are rugged as all get out but I have found them to be clubby feeling.At least the ones that I have shot. I am sure there are some well balanced 21's out there but I haven't found one. As far as style I like the early guns with the sculpted frame better than the flat sided guns. Gun for gun The Parker Gun just seems to be more dynamic as well built and much more ascetically pleasing than the 21.

[Dean Romig]

I want what Dave had for breakfast.

Yeah, what Dave said.

[Mark Ouellette]

David,

What did you expect asking M21 or Parker on the Parker forum? :)

What is you intention? Is is as a shooter, collecting, appreciation, upland hunting, waterfowling, clays gun or?

If you want the strongest action then between Parker and M21 it is the M21. But if you what to shoot super hot loads buy one good autoloader. The recoil will be far less.

I owned a M21 Duck which was a fine gun. I let it go and put the received funds in another Parker. With far too many long barreled 12 and 10 gauge guns my favorite fowling piece is a Parker EH 10 Gauge in which I shot 2 7/8" low pressure loads. I have had performance with 1 & 3/8 oz Nice Shot that far exceeds my shooting ability.

So, M21 or Parker? There are some great buys on Parkers in this repressed market. One might even find a M21 at a good price.

You might however ask the same question on the M21 forum. I think Dick who runs that forum also owns Parkers.

PS: While I sold my M21 Duck I still own a M23 Heavy Duck. The M23 is a Japenese made gun but it fits me perfectly. Plus, with it I can shoot any steel shot high pressure loads without worry. That stated, I haven't shot the M23 in a couple years. I shoot and hunt with classic American SxS's.

I hope this babbling helps,
Mark

[Mark Ouellette]

More Coffee Dean!!! That's what Dave had...

[Bill Murphy]

It was a confusing question that morphed into a discussion of waterfowl guns. That's OK with me. Anyone who doesn't own a #2 or #3 frame Parker, a Model 21 Duck, and a Super Fox, should go shopping.

[Bruce Day]

Of the 21's I think the best are the 16ga's. They are built on the small frame, the same one used for 16's and 20's, and are better handling than the 12's. The trouble is that they will weigh about 7lbs and you can get the same ga, same barrel length in a 1 frame Parker and it will weight 4-8oz less and be faster handling. But I really like the 16ga 21's, they are great feeling guns.

[David Holes]

Started with a m23 which I have had for 30 years, seldom shoot and has been for sale. Found a nice m21 when market crashed 2 years ago. Skeet gun and I shoot it well. Decided I should look at older american guns. Found out that parker was one of the first manufactures of fine guns in america and I had to have one. Picked up a vh which I shoot very well for being tight choked. Nothing like two dust balls on station 7. And by the way, you just can't have one.

[Mark Ouellette]

Bill,

I figured Dave and Dean would expound on the vitures of a 16 gauge Parker for patridge :)

[Stephen Hodges]

Well, a "new guy" will weight in on this. As I have yet to shoot my first Parker, something I plan on doing next week when my 16 gauge arrives, I do own two Model 21's, one 16 gauge and one 20 gauge, the 16 being a 1948 gun and the 20 1946. The 16 is a single trigger, and is nice to shoot but my favorite is my 20. It has double triggers with ejectors. Not a common combination. Both have 28" barrels and swing and balance nice, but the 20 seems to point effortlessly, for me at least. While both have very nice wood for field grades, the twenty is a cut above the 16. I love my 21's, and can't wait to get to know my parker.

[Mark Parela]

I have loved the 21's since I was 10 years old, 30" duck magnum was my first shotgun ever. I paid 153 bucks for that gun at the local sporting goods shop used. I beat the tar out of that gun for years, shot all my firsts with her. I didn't even know what I had until years later. That bad boy is what taught me about life, shooting every dam thing in site it wasn't until old doc Monroe told me what I had on my hands.
I shot the rib off it and put it away, I purchased another one and left her alone. Then I sent her up to Andys to get redone and bang he went belly up. My buddy and I drove through the nite when I heard he was going tits up from doublegunshop.com. But the Good Fella's got her back in pieces. It wasn't a pretty scene up there that day. She was redone and back in the quiver. Ohh there's been many 21's to pass through my hands over years.

Now she sits in the corner of my office and seem to stare at her and think of all the good times we have had and will.
Even killed a booner with her 2 years ago with a lethal load of 1 buck.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/boxbirder/2009/buck3.jpg

At the end of the day we should all be honored to own American SxS's one of the last things made 100% US.

[Tom Carter]

You've got great memories with that gun. Don't ever forget them. Tom

[charlie cleveland]

never having owned a model 21 all i can say is that ive never seena cheap one for sell...i like my parker guns but wounld not mind owning a 21 also.... charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Charlie, my first 21s were $1000 for a cased pair, oak and leather Purdey case. I once bought a 20 gauge for $650. I bought my last one several months ago for $3000. They really aren't that bad. Go for it.

[Dave Suponski]

Mark, I love 16 gauges for most anything except long range stuff. Maybe I should shoot a 16 Model 21 and see if it handles any better than the 12's. Currently I use a Trojan 20 for grouse and woodcock...Wonderful little gun I can carry it all day one handed and never get tired.

[Bill Murphy]

I used to like little guns for grouse, but I have started to like my Sauer ten with RST 7 1/2s. It weighs exactly to the ounce what my 0 frame 16 weighs.

[Dean Romig]

Bill,

I figured Dave and Dean would expound on the vitures of a 16 gauge Parker for patridge :)

The Parker sixteens are nice for sure. I use one of my 0-frame hammer guns for grouse and woodcock and it's a delight to carry all day in the thick stuff and points like my own finger but I'll still go to one of my twenty-eights most of the time.

If I shot a ten gauge like Bill does I could save a lot of the money I spend at the skeet club practicing up for grouse and woodcock season :whistle:

[David Long]

I thought this would be interesting I have a 20 ga 21 that i think a lot of and i like to use for dove and grouse it was made in 1938 and bought at marshall fields in chicago Dec of 38 But I all so have a late remington parker vhe 16 ga made in 1938 also that gives the squirrels and rabbits a hard time and i hope to pass these to my daughter one day and i hope that is a very long time I must say i have enjoyed this but i do have a soft spot for vintage american double guns

[Stephen Hodges]

Dave, if I make the shoot this spring, I will bring my 16 ga 21 and let you have a go with it.

[Dave Suponski]

Steve, Thanks I may take you up on that. I would like to have a go with it on the 5 stand.

[David Long]

Hello ?

[Dean Romig]

Hello !

[Francis Morin]

It was a confusing question that morphed into a discussion of waterfowl guns. That's OK with me. Anyone who doesn't own a #2 or #3 frame Parker, a Model 21 Duck, and a Super Fox, should go shopping.-- IMO- the M21 is like a Stevens 311 with ejectors and a very good single trigger- all way heavy for their gauge. Best scaled smaller gauged doubles to frame and balance- imo again- the Phila AH Fox series.

A former grouse hunting pal has a M21 20 made in 1939 26" WS-1 and WS-2, ejectors, double triggers (yea!!) straight grip, small beavertail, but it weighs a even 15 ounces more than my 1936 Savage Utica 20 bore Sterly with 28" barrels, DT and ejectors. As legs kill grouse, after a full day's trek in the coverts, a difference of about one lb. adds up, especially as we age.

I once owned a 12 HE 32" Full and Extremely Full-but at the same aprox weight as a M-1 Garand, learned to love my 8 lb. Smith with 32" VR barrels even more. In a duck/goose gun, where you are not walking afield all day, the extra weight, providing the balance and proper gun fit is extant, no big deal- M21's are "Hell for Stout", but I prefer Parkers and Smiths- and the laws of supply/demand re: pricing- fewer M21's even made than Parker, Smith and Ithacas-:bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

In answer to the original poster, we should own and enjoy both Parkers and Model 21s. They are wonderful guns for birds and waterfowl. I have had Model 21 20 gauges that weighed the same, to the ounce, as 20 and 16 gauge 0 frame Parkers. We have to look at the individual gun to evaluate it's suitability for certain uses.

[David Long]

?????

[Bill Murphy]

Not only are stripped down 20 gauge Model 21s often about 6 1/4 pounds, the Duck Model is usually only about 7 3/4 pounds. Unlike the Model 12 Duck, the Model 21 Duck is equipped with the same barrels as the standard field gun. I have had factory 3" Model 21s as light as 7 1/2 pounds. A friend in my gun club owns a 28" 20 gauge Model 21 that weighs 6 pounds 4 ounces on the nose. It is an early gun with splinter forend, double triggers, and extractors. I sold it to him for next to nothing back in the day when a double trigger non ejector Model 21 was not a popular gun.

[John Dallas]

I have a 20 gauge skeet grade M21 with two sets of barrels (3" chambers), large Hession beavertail forearm and pistol grip. With the 26" barrels the gun weighs 6# 10oz. With the longer 28" barrels, the gun is 7# even.

[Bobby Cash]

20 gauge, 28", DT, SPFE
6lb 2oz, Exactly the same as my VH 20 on a "0" frame

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk136/2low8s/100204127-1-L.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk136/2low8s/946563_parkvh20_02l_kc.jpg

[Jim Beilke]

My 21 12ga doubled twice on me this year on opening duck hunting. I was shooting Kent tungsten matrix 11/4 oz loads. Man, was that an eye opener and a jaw shaker. I was very disappointed in the gun. Gunsmith said there was nothing broken,but he inards were pretty gunked up. hoped for better from a 21.

[John Dallas]

After 68 years (probably also about the age of your M21) my innards are gunked up also. I wouldn't blame the gun for not having been cleaned in many years. If you're still disappointed, and want to sell the gun, I'm always on the prowl for 21's.

[Bill Murphy]

Jim, so your point is?

[David Long]

I have used a 21 from the time i have been 16 i have NEVER heard of one doubleing

[Dennis V. Nix]

I had a 12 gauge field grade Model 21 years ago and it doubled often until I had a gunsmith friend of mine clean it out and so some tweaking. After that it never doubled again and was a tremendous shotgun. I now have a 12 gauge with a 28 inch barrel and Skeet 1 and 2 chokes. It has never doubled and has been a great shotgun. I own a couple of Foxes, a couple of L. C. Smiths, a Parker GH and the model 21. ALL are great guns.

Dennis

[william faulk]

SN 7902

W21s were the guns of choice in Alabama where I grew up.My dad and 5 uncles all shot these guns,mostly for quail..plenty of them then.
This gun was made in 1935..32" barrels,tight chokes and with #3 factory engraving..have never shot a M21 that doubled....
Thought everyone would like to see a classic gun for trap or ducks.
Bill :corn:

[Ronald Moore]

I have all of them, Parker, Smith, Winchester 21, and Foxes even a few Lefevers all of them do a great job.

[Mills Morrison]

Aren't Model 21's supposed to have the strongest barrels to withstand the strongest loads of any of the American classic doubles?

Their attraction to me is the over-engineered strength they are supposed to have as well as the story behind them - that John Olin made them because he wanted to produce a classic and to heck with whether the finances made sense. Something about that I like

[John Dallas]

John Olin subjected the M21, along with other guns of the time (including Purdey) to proof testing, and all other guns failed. He was unable to blow up the M21 with any proof load he tried. If my memory is correct (and that is a BIG assumption) the Purdey failed on the 4th or 5th charge.

[Mills Morrison]

I remember that test and that is why I understand they are overengineered. It was something like the others started going on the 4th or 5th round, all the others were gone by 200 and the M 21 was going strong with no damage at 2000 when they stopped the testing. That is cool

[Brett Souder]

The other test that is very interesting is that Winchester made two identical frames both heat treated, and then one was case hardened and the other was blued. Then they were tested for Tensile strength, elastic limit, elongation and reduction of area. The results are below and perhaps someone can explain to me what these results mean? Just because the numbers are higher are their any real positives or negatives.

Case hardened frame:
Tensile strength 94,200 PSI
Elastic limit 85,00 PSI
Elongation 2.0 percent
Reduction 0.0 percent

Blued frame:
Tensile strength 174,600 PSI
Elastic limit 160,950 PSI
Elongation 12.0 percent
Reduction of area 63.7 percent

[John Mazza]

The blued frame is far more strong & ductile. However, I'm surprised that merely case hardening the surface would make such a huge difference in overall mechanical properties...