inspect possible purchase for me

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

I do not know if this is the right place to ask if not feel free to move it, I need someone that lives close to the Cabellas in West Chester Ohio it is just south of cinncy to look at a gun for me they do not have 3 day inspection any more, The gun is a 4E Ithaca Trap gun 12 ga I know the gun is an early Flues model just need someone to give me their thoughts on the piece, If no one is close I guess It will be like a pig in a polk buying it please do not drive far if not close thats alright I will be glad to compensate for this Thanks Gary

[Bill Murphy]

Gary, I would not buy a Flues 4E if I could find a Knickerbocker 4E or higher.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Tell me I do not know squat about Ithacas just thought the checkering was better on the early ones? educate me a little, Gary

[Mike Poindexter]

Decent Flues 4E's go for around 2K; decent Knicks (S/N greater than 400,000) go for mid 3K and up. The Knicks were generally thought to be a more robust mechanism, and Ithaca continued to produce them into the 1960's. Finding someone to work on an early Flues can be a chore, and parts are scarce. If you want a high volume shooter, definitely go with the Knick. Personally, I dont shoot trap enough to worry about it, and prefer the earlier engraving to the later. I bought a Flues 4E from Stan Hoover on this site a year ago and am very happy with it.

[Bill Murphy]

The Knicks have about five moving parts and none of them break. The Flues, don't know about the parts, but I would guess they are not easy to find if you break one.

[CraigThompson]

Murphy I’m sure is quite correct . However when I have Ithaca questions I call Stan “The Man” Hoover !

[edgarspencer]

Gary, you're a trusting soul.

[Stan Hoover]

Gary,

I will say one thing, you're looking for a SBT Ithaca at the right time, it is a buyers market for sure.

I was looking for a 34" Knick for awhile, not beating all the bushes, but I found one last summer that had a half pistol grip which was bonus. I've never encountered a Knick before with a half pistol grip always full pistol grip with cap or the more rare straight grip.

Now of course there's another 34" Knick that surfaced, so far I've been able to talk myself out of it:eek:

Stan

[Arthur Shaffer]

When i was in my 20's and 30's, I always wanted one. In my mind they were the most legendery competition gun in the history of sports, and competed for 60 or 70 years. I can remember in the 70's when modern SBT's started showing up, there were always a bunch of guys in their 60's and older at all the trap fields who were buying every one that became available, and the younger guys were glad to let them go cheap to finance their new guns. They dried up over a few years, and I suspect that there were a few guys who had some incredible stashes of them. I think that the families of those guys are moving a lot of them out over a short period and the prices are really reasonable.

The only one I owned until recently was a really nice looking Victory model that I picked up cheap in the early 80's. I shot it wonderfully, but only hit when the shell went off. The entire firing pin train was worn out, even though the rest of the gun looked perfect. The tip of the pin was worn short and flat, the spring was shot and the hole for the pin was worn too large due to the angled firing pin so that the pin would jam. I finally made a pin and a workable spring, but the only solution I could see for the hole was to bush it, and the angle made me give up on it.

When you have to pick...
I beg you to get a Knick.....
Not the sh#% on stick!

(Pardon my haiku.)

[Jerry Harlow]

Gary,

Cabelas used to have a policy that they would ship the gun to another Cabelas near you for $25 or $50, which I can't remember. I imagine they still do. Then you can look at it there before anyone else with no obligation to buy.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Gary,

Cabelas used to have a policy that they would ship the gun to another Cabelas near you for $25 or $50, which I can't remember. I imagine they still do. Then you can look at it there before anyone else with no obligation to buy.

You can ask, but the last time I tried I found that a lot of the individual stores have opted out of that plan on specific guns. It appeared to be a somewhat voluntary thing depending on the manager.

I also found that at my local store a couple of miles from my house they kept quite a few used guns in the back. They no longer have a gun library, and keep these in the back on an "asked for" basis, even though they are not advertised in the Cabela's inventory.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Jerry they still do but there is not one close to me, Richmond I think is the closet to me 100 miles so I will pass on this one and look at bidding on the SBT in RIA Thanks every one I have been educated a little on Ithaca, SBT, but tell me are the Flues better engraved than the knicks! Gary

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Thanks to every one I am going to let this one pass Gary

[Stan Hoover]

Hey Gary,
I found a few pictures online since I don't have many comparison photos on my phone. In my opinion only, I prefer the lines of the Knick over the Flues.
You will have to decide which you prefer:)
I believe the earlier Flues may have had finer engraving versus later Flues, the transition to the early Knick was similar to later Flues, and then the latest Knick's had less engraving than the earlier Knick's. The last of the Knick's were produced in 1980.
This a fairly early 1917 Flues with finer checkering followed by a 1950-1960's Knick.

[Phil Yearout]

A local dealer had a couple of high-end (5E?) Flues SBT's that I drooled over every time I went in, but he was quite proud of them. They were pretty things for sure! Based on what I'd heard from others I really wanted a Knick though, and I eventually got a 5E Knick from a member here and love it...

https://i.imgur.com/DZKq9Pil.jpg

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Stan and Phil thank you for those photos, I have owned a SC Parker trap and for some damn reason I have a hard on for one of these Ithaca traps, A question, I understand they did 3 modifications to the Flues What were they? still learning Gary

[Steve Cambria]

but tell me, are the Flues better engraved than the knicks! Gary

By far. The 6 and 7E's will suck the air out of your lungs. Here are a few pics of a 34" 7E (2nd Model Flues) that whispered in my ear a few years back.

112182
112183
112184

I believe there were only two models on the Flues SBT, First and Second followed of course in 1922 by the introduction of the Knick. The later model Flues employed a crossbolt lockup which is visible on the top left side of the frame. What's not to like about the "King of the Trap Guns?"

[Phil Yearout]

OK, riddle me this: why do trap guns have game birds and bird dogs engraved on them? Shouldn't they have clay targets or little houses with sloped roofs :)?

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Steve that is a great looking gun how many grades were made? Gary

[Steve Cambria]

I believe there were six models/grades offered on the SBTs at least through the late 30's??? Victory, 4E, 5E, 6E, 7E and the opulent, Sousa. The 6E had a very limited run, maybe 5 to 6 years, tops.

[Dave Noreen]

The original Flues SBT had two extensions with wedge bolting --

112203

112204

Pretty quickly A.P. Curtis changed the bolting to a Greener-style cross-bolt --

112205

a bit later the Curtis bolting was modified a bit --

112206

All this in a barely seven-year production run

[Rick Roemer]

Sounds like you are passing on this one, but I live nearby and would be glad to visit Cabelas.

Just let me know if you want me to check on it.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Thanks but yes I am passing on this one, bought one from a member on this site, Gary

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, three variations of the Flues single, not two. Notice the left hand crossbolt on the third variation is partially cut out. Why? Don't know. Steve Cambria's 7E is outrageous. I need a 7E Knick if anyone knows where one is available.

[Mike Franzen]

Gary I just saw this. That store is about a half hour from where I live. I’m not an Ithaca expert but I would have gone to check it out for you.

[Dave Noreen]

The Flues Model Ithaca SBT was introduced during 1914. In mid-1915 Ithaca went to the bold McGraw engraving. A No. 6E I've recorded info on, ordered Sept. 7, 1915, has the bold McGraw acanthas in place of the fine scroll previously seen on the No. 6.

112236

[Stan Hoover]

Yup, three variations of the Flues single, not two. Notice the left hand crossbolt on the third variation is partially cut out. Why? Don't know. Steve Cambria's 7E is outrageous. I need a 7E Knick if anyone knows where one is available.

Bill,
This is just my opinion, but I believe the left tenon was partially cutout to allow it to pass over a flat section of the crossbolt, then when the bolt moved to right upon closure, a circular section of the pin would fill that left tenon?

The last version of the Flues with the cross bolt, the left tenon was shortened even more, so that only maybe 50% of the pin contacted the tenon.

Speaking of a 7E Knick, there was one that sold maybe 4-5 weeks ago, I went to take a look see, was pretty decent, 32" barrel, someone bought a good one for $6999.00, timing just wasn't good:cuss: