Research Letter validation

[Dallas Passow]

Hello all, a while back I purchased this Parker listed as a P-Grade 10 Gauge with 26" barrels. I ordered a research letter, along with several others, and glanced at it and put it in the safe. I'm prepping for a gun show this weekend and realizing the research letter differs quite a bit from what I'm holding in my hand. I have reached out to letters@pg and asked politely if they'd double check the research. In the meantime, I'm hoping to get some confirmation based on the attached pictures before this weekend


Thanks everyone

[charlie cleveland]

the weight of the barrels at 3 lb. 10 ounce is awful light for a 10 ga..probably a 12 ga...looks like it has lots of case colors...good luck if your saleing it...charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Have you tried to insert a 10 gauge shell in the chamber? We would also like to see the letter you say is different from your "other" letters. Thanks. Lovely gun.

[Dallas Passow]

the weight of the barrels at 3 lb. 10 ounce is awful light for a 10 ga..probably a 12 ga...looks like it has lots of case colors...good luck if your saleing it...charlie

Thanks. wish I could find a 10 gauge shell somewhere. having a hard time getting a good read with calipers since it's such a small margin between the two. any ideas how to check if it's 10 gauge without a shell handy?

[Dallas Passow]

Have you tried to insert a 10 gauge shell in the chamber? We would also like to see the letter you say is different from your "other" letters. Thanks. Lovely gun.

Thanks, finding a 10gauge shell is challenging. stores are still struggling to keep ammo on the shelves around here. I attached the letter. I withheld initially because I wasn't sure if it was permissible to post the research letters. There are some obvious discrepancies right off. T Grade when the gun is Marked P and obviously, it's not a Hammer gun either. I'd really like to know if the 26" barrels are the original or if they were modified.

[Dallas Passow]

Also, while we are talking about it, can someone tell me the significance of the T inside a partial circle, and the "C" both on the underside of the barrel?

[Ryan Brege]

Looks like a 1 Frame? I don't think there were many 10's made on a 1 frame, that would be pretty rare.

Ryan

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Your barrels are probably cut, to me it looks like your tape measure is reading 26 3/8.

[Arthur Shaffer]

T is not a grade, it is a quality. The P is stamped on the water tables. The hats top and bottom on the T indicate a plain twist barrel if I remember correctly. I too believe the barrel weight is much too light for a 10 gauge, as is the overall gun length. A 26" 10 would be a real oddity. Since this is obviously not a hammer gun, my best guess is that there was an error in the work orders and the gun was a hammerless 12 ga. Just my guess. I would also tell you that 26" barrels would be not common in a 12 and even less common in 10. If I were buying the gun, I would presume that it was a 28" or 30" 12 ga with light barrels that was cut off to 26".

Also, try the obvious. If any place has a shell, it will have a 12 g. Buy or borrow one and see if the 12 ga fits tigntly in the chamber. I would bet it will.

It is a pretty nice example. However, if the barrels are cut, it's value is greatly diminished, from both a collector or user point. Post a picture of the top of the rib around the bead and the front of the muzzles.Many people here will be able to make a judgement from that.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I didn't mention the 1 frame because it looked so odd. I looked again and it looks like a ! stamp the was cocked when struck so it looks tapered without a top.

[Andrew Sacco]

Am I missing something? Letter says Hammer gun.

[Dallas Passow]

T is not a grade, it is a quality. The P is stamped on the water tables. The hats top and bottom on the T indicate a plain twist barrel if I remember correctly. I too believe the barrel weight is much too light for a 10 gauge, as is the overall gun length. A 26" 10 would be a real oddity. Since this is obviously not a hammer gun, my best guess is that there was an error in the work orders and the gun was a hammerless 12 ga. Just my guess. I would also tell you that 26" barrels would be not common in a 12 and even less common in 10. If I were buying the gun, I would presume that it was a 28" or 30" 12 ga with light barrels that was cut off to 26".

Also, try the obvious. If any place has a shell, it will have a 12 g. Buy or borrow one and see if the 12 ga fits tigntly in the chamber. I would bet it will.

It is a pretty nice example. However, if the barrels are cut, it's value is greatly diminished, from both a collector or user point. Post a picture of the top of the rib around the bead and the front of the muzzles. Many people here will be able to make a judgement from that.


Thanks a lot. I'll post some more pictures. 12gauge shell fits, but hard for me to tell if the slop is too much or not. I'll try to locate a 10Ga shell. If the research letter is based on data then I may never know for sure if it's original or not.

[Gary Laudermilch]

My P 1 frame 12 has a barrel weight of 3-8. It has factory 26 " barrels.

[Dallas Passow]

Am I missing something? Letter says Hammer gun.

Yup, that's why I started this thread...letter has some obvious discrepancies. The original barrel length and gauge is what I'm really interested in figuring out though.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Good eye Andy

[Garry L Gordon]

Did you Private Message Chuck Bishop? I would recommend this first and foremost.

The gun pictured is obviously a 1 frame twist barrel hammerless Parker as folks have already said. I'd bet it's a 12 (also, as folks have said). A 1 frame 12 with original 26" barrels is not all that common from that serial number range especially.

Good luck.

[Dallas Passow]

T is not a grade, it is a quality. The P is stamped on the water tables.

Thanks, so I am familiar with Grading and have read up on that, but this attribute of Quality is new to me. Where can I read up on "Quality" as opposed to Grades. Tried some search terms here and Google and didn't see anything specific to Quality.

[Dallas Passow]

It is a pretty nice example. However, if the barrels are cut, it's value is greatly diminished, from both a collector or user point. Post a picture of the top of the rib around the bead and the front of the muzzles.Many people here will be able to make a judgement from that.

Here are some different camera and light angles of the muzzle and bead

[Mills Morrison]

I would PM Chuck before posting here. He could have looked at the wrong serial number by mistake or something

[Dallas Passow]

I would PM Chuck before posting here. He could have looked at the wrong serial number by mistake or something

Thanks, I had already sent an email with pictures and such. Figured I'd reach out through the same channel I ordered the letter from in the first place. Either way, I'm still getting a lot of other good information on the gun from everyone that's replied

[Andrew Sacco]

Good eye Andy

Just LOOKIN' out for ya' Harold :)

[Arthur Shaffer]

I checked the serialization book and it doesn't appear there, so the only records would be the factory records.

I did a little research to update my memory, and was reminded that during this period Parker offered only 12, 14 and 16 gauge in the hammerless gun. The 10 gauge guns were all marked as N grade to justify the slightly higher price. Also, the hammer guns were technically P guns and the hammerless guns were PH guns during this period. However, The Parker Story states that many PH guns were marked only P. If the work book lists this gun as a P grade, the letter may show that it is a hammer gun, since there is no way to tell the difference.

As two the barrels, I am far from an expert, but the front of the muzzle shows no gaps, the barrels look to touch and the top rib has the proper engraved delineation line and the non-engraved band at the front past the bead. My opinion if asked would be that they are factory 26" barrels. No idea about the 10 ga barrel length record source, but the hammer part is pretty easily explained.

If I were buying this gun without seeing the letter, I would have no trouble believing it was a proper PH 12 gauge with factory 26" Plain Twist barrels. In the condition it is in, it should be desireable to someone wanting a nice entry level Parker.

The TPS records that there were slightly less than 200 of these guns in that grade and barrel length made. The actual numbers can make it slightly more. The total of that grade and configuration and all barrel lengths is over 1000. Personally my experience is that Parkers of most configurations with rare short barrel lengths are noteworthy but don't translate into a lot of added value. They do, however, increase interest and help sales. Long barrels are a different story.

[Dallas Passow]

Thanks everyone for all the info. Turns out my email never made it to Chuck because I used .com instead of .org and just recently got an undeliverable message. He did reply to me though that the letter is correct except for it should be Quality PH hammerless. The handwriting was hard to read. That makes sense. So, I did get some 10ga shells and it is definitely NOT a 10ga gun. Since Chuck confirmed the research letter then the barrels had to have been modified, so my confusion is now cleared up. Thanks to everyone for the response.

[John Davis]

I've got to say that those barrels look pretty right to me. But then what do I know?

[Arthur Shaffer]

I'll make one more comment and then drop it. I participated in this and somehow assumed that the serial numbers match on all the pieces. It suddenly dawned on me that this was not mentioned, the gun was never shown assembled and the forend iron and the barrel lug was never shown. This could simply be good barrels and they are on the wrong gun.

I am certain at this point that you have recieved the correct data shown in the records. However, this would likely not be the first Parker with an incorrect entry in the records if that should be true.

I think we all agree that the action/stock is original. The barrels I think can be assumed to be correct 12 gauge 1 frame and original (but maybe not to this gun). Look on the inside of the forearm at the metal piece and on the side of the barrel lug and see if the serial number of the barrels, the forend iron and wood and the gun all match. If they do, I think the gun is all original and the records in error. I don't think anyone would go to the effort of re-numbering replacement barrels for a P grade unless done by the factory. Also, as mentioned, if this were originally a 10 gauge for this period it almost certainly have been an N grade, not a P. (I actually have a matching 10 gauge from a few years later like this one, and that was still the practice then.)

Also it would be nice to see a closeup of the action/barrel assembly when put together. The barrels are 1 frame barrels. A 10 gauge would most commonly been a 3 frame but maybe a 2. If the barrel breeches and frame fit together correctly, the frame must be a 1 frame also.

Something doesn't add up for any of the scenarios if the records are actually correct and the gun original. The only viable answer I can see is that a light gun was requested and 1 frame P grade frame was used as a basis and 10 gauge barrels were fitted, then later replaced by someone with 1 frame 12 gauge barrels. Anything else points to an oddity.

Check that all the serial numbers match first. If so the records are totally wrong. If the forend and action match and the barrels are different, then the above scenario is suppported. I don't see a situation where the records were accurate unless the 10 ga gun was stamped with the wrong grade stamp.

Also post a picture of the assembled gun showing the barrel/sction fit. I think we can tell from that if smaller barrels have been fitted.

[John Davis]

Seems to me that all the mysteries have been cleared up except as to barrel length. So you are left with four possibilities:

1) The barrels have been cut.
2) The gun was returned and the barrels were replaced by Parker at a later date.
3) The barrels were replaced aftermarket by someone other than Parker.
4) The Order Book is wrong.

Options 2 and 4 are going to be extremely difficult to prove. Leaving Options 1 or 3 as your most likely scenarios.

[Bill Murphy]

The muzzle end of the rib shows that this is probably an original 26" gun. Chuck should be along soon to confirm that his letter contains the correct information or, possibly in error, Chuck's first one.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I have no doubt Chuck's information is correct as shown. I do believe it is possible that the factory records were at times incorrectly entered, noted, crossed up or whatever. They were entered by hand in a running system by 19th century factory workers working at a hard pace. Things happen.

[charlie cleveland]

I believe the barrels are not cut look at the end of the barrels the matting stops before the end of the barrel and the little sqiggly line is across the end of the barrels....charlie

[Dave Noreen]

Looks like a 1 Frame? I don't think there were many 10's made on a 1 frame, that would be pretty rare.

Ryan

When I saw that 1, I was hoping this gun would double the number of known 1-frame 10-gauges.

[Dean Romig]

It is my opinion, though it has the usual perpendicular termination like and the space at the
end of the rib, the space is newly milled and in so doing has eliminated the ends of the rib matting lines and a termination line has been subsequently been scribed. And yes, it 'looks' like there may be keels in place beneath the ribs but that definition would require closer examination than a simple photo might present. I believe the barrels have been cut...

Please triple-click on the image.





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[Daniel Carter]

Dean a few years ago I was at Cabelas in Scarborough Me. and saw the same thing. Where the space was had rusted but not where it had not been ground. When i pointed it out to the manager he was fit to be tied and cursed the seller for tricking him. Where the grinding was done it was dished not flat.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Be nice to measure the barrels and see if they are choked. Still the 12 vs 10 problem and the P vs N problem.

[John Davis]

It was listed for sale as a ten gauge. The letter says 12 gauge. A 12 gauge shell fits the gun and a 10 gauge does not. I believe the mistake was made in the for sale listing. It was and is a 12 gauge.

[Chuck Bishop]

Read the research letter that Dallas posted. It is correct except that it isn't a Quality T hammer gun, it's a Quality P.H. hammerless gun. Everything else is correct!!! In the early days, you ordered a gun based on it's price, hence it's called a XX Dollar Grade gun. Next in Parker catalogs and price lists, they used the word Quality such as Quality D for hammer guns and Quality DH for hammerless guns plus for hammer guns, they used different letters for different gauges, barrel steel, and stock grip types. Later on when all the guns were hammerless, they just used a letter plus the "H" for grades. Here is a picture from the 1882 catalog.

One other thing you have to remember is that this gun could have been sent back to Parker to have 26" barrels put on but the order book could be missing for this request! Only close examination of the barrels may prove if they've been cut. Not much choke would be left when you cut off 4".

Just my 2 cents.

[Dean Romig]

Dean a few years ago I was at Cabelas in Scarborough Me. and saw the same thing. Where the space was had rusted but not where it had not been ground. When i pointed it out to the manager he was fit to be tied and cursed the seller for tricking him. Where the grinding was done it was dished not flat.

And if you triple-click on the image you will see that the blank space on the subject gun is in fact “dished” or concave. This is most evident at the left edge of the blank space on rib… not our lift but rather the lrft side of the gun.





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