10 gauge reload Issues

[Stan Hoover]

Hoping someone can tell me what I’m doing wrong here,

I’m reloading short 10’s on a Mec with the short kit and I started having some shells turn out like you see in the pictures. It started as a few here and there and I’m now at the point where 90% are coming out like this:cuss:

These are fired RST Cheddite hulls, I thought maybe I’ve passed the lifespan of these shells, but it makes no difference if they’re fired once or 5 times. I’m starting to think there’s a problem with my final crimp station but I haven’t taken it apart yet. Has anyone had this problem?

[charlie cleveland]

your wad height is not high enough you will have to add abean or paper wads or some thing under the shot to bring up the height of the lead...there is nothing to stop your crimp from going down to far..adjustment of higher wad column will fix your problem...charlie

[scott kittredge]

Yup more filler wad

[Ed Blake]

The RST hulls are not that great to reload but if that’s all you have….I place a 1/8” 20 gauge card wad in the bottom of the shot cup. A thin card wad in 12 or 16 gauge goes on top of the shot for the crimp. This is with 1 1/8” of shot.

[Stan Hoover]

With all respect, I don’t think that’s the issue.

I have some that are turning out perfectly, do you see how the shell appears to be squirting out the one side past the crimping stem?

I know when you do not have enough filler, it will close, but not tightly because the load is not up against the end of the crimp.

Stan

[CraigThompson]

The RST hulls are not that great to reload but if that’s all you have….I place a 1/8” 20 gauge card wad in the bottom of the shot cup. A thin card wad in 12 or 16 gauge goes on top of the shot for the crimp. This is with 1 1/8” of shot.

I used to use an overshot card in the tops to keep my folded crimp flat in the 10 gauge . It works well but anymore the red beans are easier than a spacer wad and an overshot card .

[Pete Lester]

With all respect, I don’t think that’s the issue.

I have some that are turning out perfectly, do you see how the shell appears to be squirting out the one side past the crimping stem?

I know when you do not have enough filler, it will close, but not tightly because the load is not up against the end of the crimp.

Stan

If you think your shot column height is correct I would try adjusting the cam and see if makes an improvement.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/mecadjust/mecadj.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhvArXPDo6M

[Craig Larter]

Stan is the crimp die cracked?

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Stan,
Check the crimps of the fired shells that you are loading. If you find any that have even a minor crack, or deformity, where the crimps are those will be the ones that come out like those you've pictured. In case you miss any visually, you should be able to see which ones will be bad as soon as you pre-crimp them. If you want to shoot the deformed shells anyway Craig's suggestion about an overshot card is a good one.

[CraigThompson]

I use REM and Cheddite/RST 10 gauge hulls , I’ve not had anything like that even with hulls that are past their best in reloading efficiency .

[Stan Hoover]

Stan is the crimp die cracked?

I took a look at the die there Craig, it appears to be fine with out taking it apart,

I’ll have to look at the links provided by Pete and educate myself on the adjustment and disassembly of that piece.
Something must be going on inside that piece that’s allowing part of the shell to slip past what ever does the final crimp.

Reloading RST shells was just easy for me, I saved the hulls that I shot in the past and just started reloading, no trimming involved. I should probably be looking to upgrade.

I appreciate all the great suggestions, I’ll have to take things apart, see if I can come up with a conclusion.

After shooting the 10 gauge Hammer at the Fall Southern yesterday, it is a gauge that is just allot of fun, I enjoy the Big 10.

Stan

[Keith Doty]

Suspicion here is the start crimp isn't getting a deep enough start and some of the hull is "outside" of the center flat of the final crimp and hooking the edge of the shell mouth. Has your adjustment on start crimp slipped or moved?

[Stan Hoover]

You are correct Keith, after doing a little more digging, I found that Mec says the start crimp should close the shell far enough that a primer will not fit in. My start crimp had worked loose and after some adjustments, I loaded 30 that looked like this.
Thanks for all the advice,
Stan

[Keith Doty]

Glad to help. Nobody should have to shoot ugly ammo!

[Paul Harm]

Those shells don't have enough crimp. Take your starting crimp to where the shell is almost closed - this will give you more material to work with for the next stage. Then your plunger should be adjusted so it pushes down more and your final crimp is deeper. You want about .060 depth, or the thickness of a dime. The center should be slightly down and in - this way it will lock the petals together and the shell won't open. And last but not least, I'm going to post a reply in a thread I copied about 5 years ago. It's how to adjust the final station so it's not flared out. It's actually two replies, one after the other. Good luck.
paul harm

When adjusting the crimp station, the CAM is the LAST thing you adjust. Adjust the crimp starter first, then adjust the seating stem to get the proper depth. When you are getting a correct fold of the crimp petals, and the correct depth set, THEN adjust the cam to eliminate the flare. NOTE The cam adjustment should be set at least 2/3 of the way up, while the other adjustments are being made. Then, and only then, lower the cam enough to eliminate the flare.


The roller will not touch the cam (or at least not have any force put on it by the cam) at the very bottom of the stroke. BUT, more cam means the cam will touch the roller and apply force to it longer (further down) in the stroke. The cam has a fairly sharp shoulder or lobe on it. When you start down with the press the roller rolls on the cam (because this part of the cam is circular) and the outer (plastic) part of the die is pushed down by the cam and roller. Until you get around 1/2-3/4 of the way down, everything I have said so far remains true regardless of where the cam is set. However, the cam is rotating as you come down. Eventually the cam rotates to the point when the roller goes past the shoulder on the cam. Past this point the cam is no longer circular. As you come on down the cam puts less and less pressure on the roller. But, the center punch will come on down because it is fastened solidly to the top of the press. If the roller gets past the shoulder of the cam too early in the stroke you will end up with the punch coming on down on the center of the crimp and this tending to squeeze the top of the shell outward. But the plastic part of the die is not coming on down, which means it cannot prevent the top of the shell from flaring outward. It takes a lot of fine tuning to get this just right. There is a reason why Mec adds the final taper die to the Grabber and 9000. Having a separate die that is used strictly to get some taper makes things a lot simpler.

Most people do NOT have straight in their minds what the CAM actually does. There are all kinds of convoluted beliefs as to what it actually does.

Adding more cam, (Lowering it at the adjustment slot), causes the crimp die to lower slightly at the near bottom of the stroke. The die has a taper at the top of the die, that when pushed lower, will in fact push the flare at the end of the hull inward, closing the hole in the center tighter, and usually will eliminate the flare and in fact may leave the end of the hull slightly rounded.

SO, in most cases, a properly adjusted CAM will reduce or eliminate the flare on the end of the hull, and probably leave it slightly rounded.

[Keith Doty]

Paul is correct, more plunger depth in the final crimp will clean those up.

[Paul Harm]

Mec has a 12ga smooth crimp starter for paper hulls, and a longer plunger for 12ga. You have to call and ask for them. Years ago I called and complained the plunger didn't have enough thread and couldn't be adjusted out enough. Well, I guess there must have been enough other guys with the same complaint because BINGO, they came out with one.

[Daniel Carter]

Paul i sent you a PM.

[Randy G Roberts]

Finally got the new Sizemaster setup and all the ingredients delivered. After many adjustments this is the final product. You can kind of follow along left to right and see where I ended up. What are your thoughts on any final fine-tuning adjustments that might be in order? These are new factory primed Chef hulls that I have trimmed to 2 7/8 by the way. This single stage stuff is labor intensive, whew :)

[Craig Larter]

Randy they look good, You may want to follow Paul's advise above to get more tapper and a less gap between the peddles. Here is my reload

[Randy G Roberts]

That looks great Craig. I'm thinking I have a tad bit to much material and may need to back off the pre crimp a little. Waiting for some more knowledgeable than me to chime in. Is that hull in your pic new or possibly once fired?

[Craig Larter]

once fired

[Randy G Roberts]

Probably a little easier to work with I'd assume. I want to get one of those Super Crimp starters from BP for these new hulls if they ever get any in stock.

[Keith Doty]

Randy it's kinda hard to tell from the photo angle but you might benefit from raising the load height just a bit, "tightening" the crimp. Try a few with a 16 ga. 1/8" cork in the bottom of the shot cup or a 1/16" 10 ga. card over the shot. I've tortured myself for many years with different loads looking for that consistently perfect crimp! Different things work with different loads without constantly adjusting dies. I keep careful notes and when changing loads in the same gauge I don't mess with the setup, the simple addition of a card or cork can make a world of difference and they're CHEAP! A slightly different wad sometimes is the answer. You can make yourself crazy adjusting dies for each load, bismuth vs. lead, etc.

[Randy G Roberts]

Keith I had to use a 1/4" and an 1/8" cork wad under the shot already to get enough stack height. I'm gonna play with the pre crimp a little and then I can try your suggestion. Thanks.

[Keith Doty]

No shame there. I use a Remington SP10 wad and a 1/2" non treated fiber wad in the shot cup in some of my 1 1/4 oz. lead shot loads. Loads nicely and shoots great, clays and doves hate'em! Appears that big, soft fiber wad also absorbs some of the acceleration and lowers pressures slightly as well.

[Keith Doty]

This is a nice one to shoot. Not sure why I have such a variation, suspicious I was inconsistent with seating pressure, gotta work on that and test again. These were specifically for a damascus gun, 1888 vintage Parker hammerless.

[Mike Koneski]

No shame there. I use a Remington SP10 wad and a 1/2" non treated fiber wad in the shot cup in some of my 1 1/4 oz. lead shot loads. Loads nicely and shoots great, clays and doves hate'em! Appears that big, soft fiber wad also absorbs some of the acceleration and lowers pressures slightly as well.

Same here Keith. That 1/2" fiber wad is 16g, so it drops into the shot cup really nice. I use Unique, but nice to know Longshot is an option.

[Keith Doty]

Exactly what I do.
On the Longshot, I was looking for low pressures for Damascus guns and powder availability being what it is I bought some because I could. Actually pretty impressed, have had very good results in 10 ga. AND, still fooling with it but 20 ga. as well. Kinda doesn't sound likely but test results don't lie.

[Randy G Roberts]

Keith that's the load I'm working with except I had the powder down to 29 grains. I was going to send it off for testing but now I don't have to. Thanks. I like those low pressures.

[Mike Koneski]

I have a load for 10g using 7625 too. I have plenty of that powder but when I was given the recipe with Unique, I liked it so just kept using that load.

[CraigThompson]

Any hull SP-10 wad 30 grains of SR7625 and depending on the hull 3 or 4 red beans as filler . Plain and simple breaks targets and kills birds . When I started using this load it called for one 16 gauge 1/8” card in the shot cup which I did and it worked nicely . But somebody on here started talking about using beans and or cheerios which I laughed at . One day I was out of 16 cards so I went to the local grocery store and got some small red beans . Tried a couple in the snail at the shop , seemed fine . Loaded what I needed for where ever I was going used them and have never looked back . By all means do as you wish but this works for me ! Heck I’ve adapted the same basic 30 grain SR7626 and SP-10 wad for buckshot slugs and bismuth .

[Keith Doty]

Craig I use the same loading with bismuth, just go 1/4" on the fiber wad. Fits perfectly, crimps nice and whacks'em on the other end, very easy on the shooter, especially out of an 8 or 9 pound gun. I'm just worried the Bird Sheriff is gonna get you for baiting with the beans!

[CraigThompson]

Craig I use the same loading with bismuth, just go 1/4" on the fiber wad. Fits perfectly, crimps nice and whacks'em on the other end, very easy on the shooter, especially out of an 8 or 9 pound gun. I'm just worried the Bird Sheriff is gonna get you for baiting with the beans!

If he can find the beans after the gun goes boom more power to him ! I suspect they disintegrate at the shot.

[CraigThompson]

I have a load for 10g using 7625 too. I have plenty of that powder but when I was given the recipe with Unique, I liked it so just kept using that load.

You gave me your Unique load a year or so ago and I loaded a box or two . Since I’ve got plenty SR7625 and plenty Unique the Unique will be my go to if I run out of SR7625 .

[Stan Hillis]

i'm back in the 2 7/8", 10 ga., reloading business. I've always done it one shell at the time with hand tools, never owned a 10 ga. press. But, in the past I always roll crimped cut down 3 1/2" hulls. I now have a large box full of 2 7/8" Cheddite hulls that were star crimped. Is there any way to recrimp them after loading, without a 10 ga. press?

I have a bench mounted drill press in the gun shop. I use it for roll crimping, etc. I could probably use a 6 pt. crimp starter in the drill press, with the cord unplugged, to start the crimp. Is there any way to use the drill press to finish the crimp, or any other way to do it by hand? What about the concern of buckling the hull, with no outside support of it, while finishing the crimp?

[Randy Kaalaas]

Would you fellas care to share the info on the Unique load?

[CraigThompson]

i'm back in the 2 7/8", 10 ga., reloading business. I've always done it one shell at the time with hand tools, never owned a 10 ga. press. But, in the past I always roll crimped cut down 3 1/2" hulls. I now have a large box full of 2 7/8" Cheddite hulls that were star crimped. Is there any way to recrimp them after loading, without a 10 ga. press?

I have a bench mounted drill press in the gun shop. I use it for roll crimping, etc. I could probably use a 6 pt. crimp starter in the drill press, with the cord unplugged, to start the crimp. Is there any way to use the drill press to finish the crimp, or any other way to do it by hand? What about the concern of buckling the hull, with no outside support of it, while finishing the crimp?

I don’t see why you couldn’t buy the final crimper thing from MEC for a 10 gauge and figures way to chuck it in your drill press .

[Milton C Starr]

i'm back in the 2 7/8", 10 ga., reloading business. I've always done it one shell at the time with hand tools, never owned a 10 ga. press. But, in the past I always roll crimped cut down 3 1/2" hulls. I now have a large box full of 2 7/8" Cheddite hulls that were star crimped. Is there any way to recrimp them after loading, without a 10 ga. press?

I have a bench mounted drill press in the gun shop. I use it for roll crimping, etc. I could probably use a 6 pt. crimp starter in the drill press, with the cord unplugged, to start the crimp. Is there any way to use the drill press to finish the crimp, or any other way to do it by hand? What about the concern of buckling the hull, with no outside support of it, while finishing the crimp?

I cant remember who but maybe it was Lee way back in the day made a star crimper hand tool and I have seen one before in 10 ga sell on ebay for $40. It looked to be basically a tube the shell went it the crimper went in the other end and you hit the crimper with a mallet. Theres a company that still makes a similar hand star crimper but not in 10 ga.

[Mike Koneski]

Would you fellas care to share the info on the Unique load?

Sorry for the delay Randy. Here's my Unique load-

2 7/8" hull
22.5g Unique
SP10 wad with 1/2" 16g fiber wad in the shot cup. Might have to trim it to fit in a nice crimp.
1 1/8 or 1 1/4 oz shot. If I'm making a spreader I use an X-Stream insert from BP and then drop my shot.

Any questions, feel free to message me.

[Stan Hillis]

Do you know the velocity and pressure on that load, Mike?

[Mike Koneski]

Do you know the velocity and pressure on that load, Mike?

Didn’t chronograph it. I think it’s in the Advantages book? It’s a soft shooting load for being a 10g.

[CraigThompson]

Didn’t chronograph it. I think it’s in the Advantages book? It’s a soft shooting load for being a 10g.

You want SOFT load 1 1/8 ounce shot with 18.5-19 grains of Red Dot . That’s a soft load even for a 12 gauge but it does fine in a 10 .

[Randy Kaalaas]

what is the velocity and pressure on that