Need Comprehensive low pressure reloading how-to

[John Cleveland]

I have just gotten a Parker 1879 uplift hammer 2 1/2” 12 Ga, with Damascus barrels, restored. Gunsmith proofed it with RST and said it was ok to use low pressure shells. Problem, as most know, RST, Polywad, etc., are out of stock and supply chain issues make it possible it will be a long time before they are back in the game. Reloading was suggested, but it looked like those components have supply-chain issues.

However a recent thread mentioned people now finding supplies at Brownells, maybe other sources. So, I want to consider reloading for this gun.

Sometime ago, I reloaded pistol and rifle cartridges, but I have never dealt with shotgun reloading. It’s clear from reading posts here that reloading for these vintage guns is a critical process to keep pressures low; and many variables, such as wads, shells, crimping, powder, and primers can make a big, and perhaps dangerous, difference, so it is not as simple as following cookie cutter reloading tables with standard materials.

Given the above, while I guess I could piece together parts of the science from various threads on this forum, I would like to find a resource that would comprehensively educate me on the process and materials for doing it safely without my missing a critical factor.

Can anyone point me to such a specialized resource that is reliable and clear to a newbie?

Thanks!

[Keith Doty]

John, I'm sure a number in this group would be willing to share low pressure "secret recipes" that have actually been sent to testing labs, myself included. Your biggest problem is that components is a whack-a-mole deal right now. Stuff appears and disappears in hours. With shotshells a seemingly minor substitution can make big differences in pressure, especially wads, so caution advised! My best advice is to start with published or borrowed loads you can find components for, back off the powder to the 1150 to 1200 FPS range, and spend some time and $$ having them tested. Tune to your needs. This is a bit time consuming but time and money well spent.
Some of my Bismuth duck loads that have been tested. I substitute lead and bismuth in loads, cannot tell the difference in pressure. I shoot these in fluid steel barrels NOT Damascus (AGAIN, REDUCED POWDER TYPICALLY REDUCES VELOCITY AND PRESSURE). MODIFY AND USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

[Keith Doty]

These are more 12 ga. loads.
I've been working on low pressure 10 ga. loads for Damascus guns recently. Longshot powder is currently available and I have had very good success with it. Clean burns and low pressures according to the testing I've had done. You might want to try it.

[John Cleveland]

Keith, it is late night as I see your post, so I would like to explore later; however, it just confirms how much I need to learn before I could even consider taking advantage of your generous sharing of load info. I need elementary school!

[Keith Doty]

Don't be scared to ask questions here. This probably the best group I've ever associated with about sharing knowledge on our common passion.

[John Cleveland]

Don't be scared to ask questions here. This probably the best group I've ever associated with about sharing knowledge on our common passion.

The group has already been very kind!

Like I said, I have some experience loading brass, but none with shotshells.

Before I could even begin to talk about loads and testing, I need to learn a lot about such basics as even what reloading equipment works best, what accessories are needed, etc. The question of even what wads to use seems bewildering as I look at the plethora of options I saw on the site of just one dealer that seems to have stock. Which are compatible with low pressure? Then there is understanding hull materials, shotshell crimps, what powders are slow burning, primer differences, etc. These are some of the issues I have seen from perusing the forums; and I am not sure about what I don’t know that I don’t know.:shock:

It may not exist, but it would be nice to have a resource that took me through each essential, one by one, and covered all the bases systematically. :confused:

But I appreciate the group and will take all help offered!

[Keith Doty]

I would recommend looking at the powder manufacturers website. All have extensive load info. Alliant and Hodgdons make a large proportion of the shotgun powder a lot of us shoot and have literally hundreds of loads published with primer, wad, hull, and powder combinations.

[Mike Koneski]

Keith, I did notice two of your loads are identical except for the primer. One 12g 2 1/2" load uses Fed 209 and one uses Cheddite. The difference between the two was an average of 10 FPS (?) and pressure of 100 PSI. That is not much of a difference. The reason I comment is some guys had higher pressures with Cheddites and some did not. Some recipes needed to drop an average of 2g of powder if using Cheddites to lower their pressures to levels consistent with the domestic primers. Since I don't load "hot" shells I don't really worry about the primer, but I see how some guys may need to have some testing done especially if they are loading something "snotty". Thanks for posting those recipes. :clap:

[Keith Doty]

Yes, I got some 10 ga. results that differed only in that some had factory primed Cheditte, some I primed with Cheditte 2000s. They were 1Kpsi different! There was a thread speculating on what came in factory primed Cheditte hulls, we still don't really know. That's why I tested identical loads factory vs. Cheditte 2000 (that's what we're all buying). Surprised me. Now, those loads were 4200 PSI vs. 5200PSI for my Damascus guns, Ho-hum, but on the "snotty" end, might matter.

[John Cleveland]

Keith,

I was looking at your reports. I assume that the red ratings were your conclusions based on the report values.

What are you basing the evaluation on? Velocity, pressure; average, standard deviation, or extreme spread of one of them? What made one "Best 12 Ga", 2nd, "Good", or "Very Good"?

What is your target for velocity and pressure; and I guess that these are for your fluid steel barrels? Would you target ~5,000 psi or something else for Damascus?

Thanks!

[Keith Doty]

These are all for steel barrels. The notes in red are mine, based on everything involved (my inventory of components among others). The single one posted by itself came in sometime earlier that the others along with a couple of "failed" ones. I'm looking for 1200 FPS and as low a pressure as I can get at that velocity. With any of these I can back off just a bit (1 1/2gr. maybe), hit my velocity and not worry about pressure. Over the year I shoot at least 20 different shotguns depending on the game, clays, or just my mood that day, and my personal take on it is if I have consistent velocity among my loads I don't have to adjust leads regardless if it's ducks, doves, or quail. Hopefully this makes me a better shot!

[Keith Doty]

On Damascus I want under 6500 for sure, I have some 10 ga 1 1/4 oz. loads that are around 5K, have one that came in over 1200 FPS and about 4250 PSI.

[John Cleveland]

Keith, thanks for that info.

Like I indicated, I will be starting from scratch with shotshell reloading. I guess the first thing to address is equipment.

What brand, model, configuration of reloading equipment is viewed by forum members as the best experience for low pressure reloading? What features should I look for?

[Keith Doty]

I use old Pacific 226s, one for each gauge I load, been using one since high school and I'm comfortable with them, got lots of parts and bushings. MEC is probably the most used brand but I'm guessing. You can go from basic/simple up to high dollar/really nice, kinda depends on how deep in the $$ you want to get and what volume of production you need. I WOULD recommend a good powder scale whatever brand you go with. I have found many times the "published" charge for any powder bushing may be less than accurate. I always check by weight any charge bushing I'm using before I believe the published! I'm sure others here will offer educated opinions.

[John Cleveland]

Keith,

I have been trying to look at shot shell reloaders. In my preliminary searches, most references are to handling 2 3/4” to 3”. Are there specific machines for 2 1/2 or do people just make some adjustments to 2 3/4?

[Keith Doty]

I have heard mention of "short kits" for some presses (MEC I think). My Pacific 266s were never offered in anything but 2 3/4" and 3". I simply machined 1/4" off the final crimp dies and adjusted all the other stations to match, pretty simple with that old, "obsolete" system, especially if you own a lathe and mill. The 10 ga. required shortening up the crimp die 5/8" (die was originally for 3 1/2", I needed 2 7/8"), boring out the primer seating well out about .020 as that press was never offered in 10 ga and the hull rim wouldn't go down on the spring loaded seat. I have seen pics of some guys shimming up the shell holders in the required stations to allow for 2 1/2" hulls. I guess they could adjust the dies to work that way.
I don't know of any new presses specifically for 2 1/2" ammo but there may be some or as mentioned, kits available to modify the units. My experience has been very good with calling the manufacturers tech people for help and advice with reloading issues over the years. I own old Pacific units for shotshells and RCBS for all my pistol and rifle needs. Both have been very helpful with parts and advice.

[Keith Doty]

Just took a look, MEC has several "short" kits in stock at several vendors (Midway and Precision is where I looked) , it looks like, all gauges. Recommend a call to their tech guys, tell them what you want to do and let them guide you to the proper combinations. I don't know the MEC line well enough to say. I do know a lot of our members use MEC units with great success.

[Brian Dudley]

If you are wanting to reload 2-1/2”. Just get a Mec Jr along with the spacer plate for doing 2-1/2” and 3”. Or you can just make one out of a piece of 1/4” ply wood.

As for recipes, there are many out there that would be published by the companies for whatever powder you are using. As well as hulls. Keep the recipe pressures under 8,000. Ideally in the 6-7k range and you will be find.

[Paul Harm]

I may not be in the good graces of some but what I'm going to write has worked for me since about 2005 shooting Damascus barrel guns. Been reloading since 1970.
You can shoot 2 3/4" shells in a 2 1/2" chambered gun - the pressure only goes up about 500psi. Sherman Bell did test about this and published them in the DGJ [ not in business anymore ]. He also tried to blow up in two different test, 40 Damascus barreled wall hanger SxSs. He took one Parker to 30,000psi before it let go. NONE of the wall hangers would blow with Remington proof loads of around 18,000psi. The reason I'm writing this is I believe you're worrying too much about shooting your gun. Most guys like to keep loads around 7500psi, but 8 or 8500psi loads wouldn't do any damage. I personally like to keep mine under 8000psi. If you call Alliant or Hodgdons I believe they'll still mail you one of their reloading handbooks for free. I find them much easier to use than the internet.
A Mec 600, or Jr as they're called, is probably the best bet for the money. A used one should still be found for around $100. Figure in a powder scale [ electronic for $35 ] from BPI or Precision Reloading.
Look up reloads for target shooting with 1 oz or less and you'll find many loads. The big problem is finding powder and primers. I lump primers in two groups - mild and hot. The Fed 209A and CCI 209M are hot. The rest mild. If you're reloading at say 7000psi then primer subing with in the two groups is irrelevant. Pressures won't change enough to make a difference. Cheddite primers are about the only ones you can find right now. So don't worry if the data calls for Win, Rem, Noble primers - they're all mild.
Shells in 12ga are either straight walled or tapered. The only tapered wall hulls are Win or Rem. And some new Federal hulls because they bought Remington reloading industry and label some of their shell Fed, but use Remington machinery. Most guys use a SW wad in a SW hull, and taper wad in a taper hull. The tapered wad will fit in a straight hull but you'll loose pressure. Straight wads won't fit in Tapered wall hulls.
As Brian said, with pressures in the 6 to 7000psi range you have a little leeway if the load is somewhat higher. Enough said - good luck. Find your powder first and build your load around it.

[John Cleveland]

The Hodgdon reloading manual came with the MEC Sizemaster loader that I ordered. It had a number of 2 3/4 inch 12 GA loads that were in the 5,000's and 6,000s PSI, yielding 1150 to 1250 fps velocity.

I called Hodgdon to ask if they could tell me how those loads would change using 2 1/2 shells. I spoke to a fellow named Luke Otte who was very responsive. He would not comment on how the listed loads would change in 2 1/2, BUT, he sent me a table of loads for 2 1/2" shells with pressures between 6,600 and 7,000 and velocities ranging from 1075 to 1300 fps. pushing 7/8 or 1 oz of shot. They were for Bashieri & Pellagri, Cheddite, and Fiocchi shells. They all used Universal powder and either Cheddite 209 or Fiocchi 616 primers. Of course all the Fiocchi shells used Fiocchi 616 primers (I have some Cheddite 209's). For the B&P and Cheddite shells, they used BP CS12 Short wads. The Fiocchi loads used a variety of wads. I am trying to upload a Word document to share.

However, this leaves the issue of getting components. I found some sites saying that they have the Universal powder and a couple with the Fiocchi primers. The question I have is as to the legitimacy of some of them. They claim that the credit card companies and PayPal will not do business with gun related vendors. So they want you to use PayPal but selecting the option that it is a transfer of cash to a friend or family, not a business. The significance is that PayPal says that there is no recourse for those transfers.

So, I wanted to know if any of you have safely used online reloading vendors that did this and whether I can trust ordering and paying with this channel?

Thanks!

[John Cleveland]

Attempt to upload Word version of loads table.

[Keith Doty]

John, I have purchased all kinds of components thru Gunbroker, etc. If they can't take a major CC for the transaction I recommend avoiding them. I did a bit of searching on a couple of dealers that wouldn't and found addresses that didn't match the business and other "odd" things, looked like less than reputable vendors. Same with Paypal. I don't think Paypal allows any ammunition or powder/primer sales so the "friends and family" deal is sketchy in my opinion. I HAVE used Paypal for wad purchases, no issue.

[John Cleveland]

Keith, thanks. The PayPal thing made my antennae go up and I didn’t complete it.

However, it is interesting that the one I was ordering Universal from, ended up later showing on their site the order being processed using ApplePay. I had initially clicked that as a payment option, but there were some problems submitting to that. It will be interesting to see if it went through and if I get the powder. At least AP is paid using my Amex card, so I can dispute it if it is bogus.

I am hopeful about the possibilities of one of the Hogdgon 2 1/2 loads being good for my gun. I would be interested in your opinion on any of them. (I hope that the load chart uploaded.) I can buy the B&P and Fiocchi locally in 2 3/4, shoot them and cut them down to 2 1/2.

[William Parks]

Keith, thanks for sharing those recipes for the “very good” loads. I’m looking for recipes for a 12ga Damascus gun, would those work or were those NOT for Damascus in your example? Also, you mentioned Longshot powder in your writing but the recipes say “international” which do you prefer for lower pressures?

[Keith Doty]

Keith, thanks for sharing those recipes for the “very good” loads. I’m looking for recipes for a 12ga Damascus gun, would those work or were those NOT for Damascus in your example? Also, you mentioned Longshot powder in your writing but the recipes say “international” which do you prefer for lower pressures?
Those were actually for my steel barrel Parkers, always looking for good performance with the least pressure I can get. Better for the barrels, the wood, and the shooter! I also recently got back from testing some Damascus gun loads, also with International. The goal was 1200 FPS and 6K PSI, got real close. See them below. I will have to dig for the 12 ga. Longshot loads. I used it for some 10 ga as well as 2o ga. with very good success. Third page below was the best in my opinion. These were specifically a quest for Damascus gun loads.

[Paul Harm]

If you're going ahead with the 2 1/2" shells, fiber wads can be used for the shorter stack height. Precision REloading and BPI both carry them. Order the 1/2" cushion wads and you can cut them with a thumb nail if necessary. Years ago when plastic wads first came out and all data was given for fiber wads, the reloading manuals said to go down 10% if using plastic wads. They sealed better. No one even worried about what kind of plastic wad it was or who made it. So much different than today.
I once wanted to make some 2 1/2" shells using Claybusters wads. So I called them stating what I wanted to do with data for around 7500psi. I ask if I could just use one of their shorter wads, like one for 1 3/8oz of shot instead of the 7/8oz. He said without testing he couldn't say for sure, but using the same manufacture and the same base, [ only the cushion height was different ] he said he wouldn't be afraid in the least. I'm only saying this because reloading shotgun shells at the lower pressures than say pistol or rifle, if using a little common sense it's pretty hard to screw things up. If you reload at the 5 to 7000psi range you're giving yourself a couple thousand psi safety factor. Good luck.

[Daniel B Sweet]

I may not be in the good graces of some but what I'm going to write has worked for me since about 2005 shooting Damascus barrel guns. Been reloading since 1970.
You can shoot 2 3/4" shells in a 2 1/2" chambered gun - the pressure only goes up about 500psi. Sherman Bell did test about this and published them in the DGJ [ not in business anymore ]. He also tried to blow up in two different test, 40 Damascus barreled wall hanger SxSs. He took one Parker to 30,000psi before it let go. NONE of the wall hangers would blow with Remington proof loads of around 18,000psi. The reason I'm writing this is I believe you're worrying too much about shooting your gun. Most guys like to keep loads around 7500psi, but 8 or 8500psi loads wouldn't do any damage. I personally like to keep mine under 8000psi. If you call Alliant or Hodgdons I believe they'll still mail you one of their reloading handbooks for free. I find them much easier to use than the internet.
A Mec 600, or Jr as they're called, is probably the best bet for the money. A used one should still be found for around $100. Figure in a powder scale [ electronic for $35 ] from BPI or Precision Reloading.
Look up reloads for target shooting with 1 oz or less and you'll find many loads. The big problem is finding powder and primers. I lump primers in two groups - mild and hot. The Fed 209A and CCI 209M are hot. The rest mild. If you're reloading at say 7000psi then primer subing with in the two groups is irrelevant. Pressures won't change enough to make a difference. Cheddite primers are about the only ones you can find right now. So don't worry if the data calls for Win, Rem, Noble primers - they're all mild.
Shells in 12ga are either straight walled or tapered. The only tapered wall hulls are Win or Rem. And some new Federal hulls because they bought Remington reloading industry and label some of their shell Fed, but use Remington machinery. Most guys use a SW wad in a SW hull, and taper wad in a taper hull. The tapered wad will fit in a straight hull but you'll loose pressure. Straight wads won't fit in Tapered wall hulls.
As Brian said, with pressures in the 6 to 7000psi range you have a little leeway if the load is somewhat higher. Enough said - good luck. Find your powder first and build your load around it.
I will start this off by saying I am far from being the most experienced Reloader or shooter of Damascus Parkers. My eyes are going to melt from their sockets from all the reading I've been doing concerning the subject of appropriate shells to use in a Parker with Damascus barrels. From what I have read Parker intended a shooter to use 2 3/4" shells in 2 5/8" chambers to acheive "A better pattern", they also used 3 1/4 drams of 1 14 oz lead for serious Trap Competition or waterfowl hunting. Sherman Bell did his best to blow up a Damascus Parker and succeded at over 30,000 PSI the same pressure that it took to destroy a pair of Vulcan Steel barrels. Recently, I believe on Gunbroker I saw a Parker that left the factory with Damascus barrels that had been blued and mismarked as being Titanic Steel, this gun had a PGCA Letter that attested to it being a gun with Titanic Steel barrels, I wonder how long that gun was fired under the assumption it had fluid steel barrels and what kind of shells had been run through it. All this reading and most of it on this forum have got me saying what's wrong with 3 Dram equivalent 1 oz. 2 3/4" factory loaded shotshells. 1145 FPS 1180 FPS and perhaps 1200 FPS

[Bruce Day]

Factory proof loads were 10,800 for early guns , 13,500 psi for later . Now SAAMI 2 3/4 proof is 15,000 ( got to have that Black Cloud Prairie Storm to kill a pen raised pheasant ) .

Service loads used by Parker were 80 percent of proof pressures.

[Mike Koneski]

The problem isn't really the barrel or action taking damage. The problem is in most cases, 100 plus year old wood that can ve very dry or oil soaked and punk. Snotty shells have a tendency to beat up both the stock and shooter. The shooter can get over it, the stock can't. Cracking, splitting, chipping and breaking cost $$. Better to reload 1 oz or less and under 1200 FPS and build in a safety net for your stock than to lay waste and have to dole out $2K+.

[Stan Hillis]

Personally, I like to stay in the 1150 fps range for everything I shoot, except steel, even modern loads in my Perazzi MX 8. High muzzle velocities are very misleading. So many people think that it significantly cuts the amount of lead you must see on birds/targets. The difference is so insignificant that you'd be better off worrying about the relative humidity affecting lead.

It is solid physics that the faster a projectile leaves the muzzle the faster is slows down. IOW, a load that leaves at 1100 fps is not 100 fps slower, at 30 yards or farther, than one that leaves at 1200 fps.

I agree with Mike K. 100% about what is most concerning with these old guns .......... it's the wood that goes first. I've only seen one damascus barrel ruined by overload, and I warned the guy not to use that powder/wad/hull combination before he did it. :nono: The chamber opened up ruining the fine old Boswell double. He claims it was a base wad separation from the previous shot. Nah, obstructions don't blow out the side of the chamber, they damage the barrel just before the obstruction. it may be remotely possible that the base wad lodged in the forcing cone, but I'll never believe it. I know what he loaded into those shells, because he told me. This is the same guy who put a 100 hp Subaru engine on a GyroCopter to get more rpms, resulting in throwing a blade off the prop, which resulted in an ignominious landing. He just has to push the limit on everything, ofttimes much to his chagrin.