10 gauge Damascus lifter

[Jacob Vealetzek]

I have this 10 gauge Damascus lifter shotgun that I’m interested in purchasing but don’t know enough about Parker guns to know why a good price would be on it? Any info would be great serial number is 11491

[Brian Dudley]

The gun is a grade 2.
It looks to be in VERY good all original condition. That is how you want to find them.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

Ok so I don’t know much about these guns. What does it mean to be a grade two? How does the grading work on Parker shotguns? Is there anyway to put a ballpark value on it? I saw one that looked similar on a midway USA clip on YouTube that said 2500 for a value. Would that be about right for this one?

[Brian Dudley]

If you go to the homepage there is all sorts of information about grading.
The value of the gun is something you will have to determine based on active listings and known sales. Or if the gun is for sale, then there should be an asking price. If you think it is fair, then pay it. All we can say is that it IS a good gun. A nice example of a grade 2 lifter.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

Ok sounds good thanks for the info and it’s an auction so no listing price that’s why I’m curious on approximate value, I tried to find others like it and there aren’t very many out there and they have a fairly wide range on prices. Is bore condition a fairly good determining factor on what it could be worth?

[Jacob Vealetzek]

Here’s a few more pictures I have now..

[Brian Dudley]

It is a 2 frame 10g. which is also considered to be somewhat "desirable" as it would be considered a lightweight 10g. Normally a 10g. would be built on the heavier 3 frame.

However, with the lighter frame, bore condition and wall thickness is very important for it to be considered a safe shooter as the lighter frame means lighter/thinner barrels.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

B Dudley, I don’t have any picture of the bores but they are nice and Whitney with no visible pitting and seem to be in very good shape. If I end up bringing the gun home I will be bringing it to my gunsmith to give it a more thorough check to make sure it is safe to shoot but it looks up nice and tight with no slip or play anywhere. What does the D5 stand for that’s shown in the pictures?

[Dean Romig]

D represents Damascus barrels and the 5 indicates the pre-struck barrel weight of 5 lbs., 0 ounces.





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[Jacob Vealetzek]

Would $1500 be a good price on a gun like this?

[Dean Romig]

Yes, that’s a goodprice but you may have to pay more to get it. Keeping in mind it’s at auction and there WILL be other bidders.




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[Jacob Vealetzek]

Got er for 1200!

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Good for you Jacob but just one word of advice. After your gunsmith confirms the guns shootability use only light loads. The early parkers had non-radiused breech faces and have been known to crack occasionally. Don't be to concerned though...I've had three of them over the years and put several hundred rounds through each of them without any issues.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

Sounds good that’s good info to have. Do you buy loads for them or load your own?

[Arthur Shaffer]

Jakob

You likely have done this, but I checked the serial number and factory record check. Your gun was made, it looks like, in early 1878 and there are existing factory records for it. You can apply for a Research Letter and find the relevent data available. This often allows you to see if it matches the way it left the factory and helps with its valuation.

If you go on and actually join, you will save more than the membership cost on the first letter, and get access to the member section with buy and sell ads for guns, parts and memorabilia, along with a lot of other interesting forums with a bunch of info.

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

I was using RST's early on but started loading my own to save a few bucks. Components are getting hard to find now and RST is also having problems finding components. Hopefully this situation will eventually pass.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

So what is the best way to clean these old Damascus guns like this to keep them in great condition?

[charlie cleveland]

some good gun oil and wipe it down regularly and clean the bores....some wood polish on the stock and forearm and do this on a schedule not hard keeping a gun clean....charlie

[Jacob Vealetzek]

So just dropped it off at the gunsmith and he was very suprised at the condition of the bores! Said it probably looked the same when it was brand new. Said it’s it really good shape. Just gonna give the once over then gotta get some shells and give it a try at the range.

[Mike Franzen]

Congratulations Jacob on a good buy. I also have a grade 2 lifter made in 1878. Yours has some some extra engraving on the breech balls. Let us know what the gun smith says.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

Is there any way of knowing how many grade 2 10 gauge lifters with hammers were made?

[Dean Romig]

Yes, you can tabulate an approximate a total from the grade tables at the end of each grade chapter in The Parker Story.

There were a lot of them made… many thousands.




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[Jacob Vealetzek]

Ok sounds good thanks I’ll check that out.

[Dean Romig]

Yes, you can tabulate an approximate a total from the grade tables at the end of each grade chapter in The Parker Story.

There were a lot of them made… many thousands.



After re-reading your question, I see that you asked specifically for Grade-2 10 gauge Lifters and in my previous reply I suggested "many thousands" but in Grade-2 10 gauge Lifters I count only about 1,854 or so.





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[Russell E. Cleary]

So just dropped it off at the gunsmith and he was very suprised at the condition of the bores! Said it probably looked the same when it was brand new. Said it’s it really good shape. Just gonna give the once over then gotta get some shells and give it a try at the range.

Jacob:

Did the gunsmith merely look at the bores?

It would be vital for the bores also to be measured for minimum wall thickness to determine if the gun were safe to shoot.

[Dean Romig]

True Russell, I am always skeptical of “shiny” or “minty” bores in someone’s description of a gun. True, they may have never been touched… or they may have been honed to get rid of pitting, then polished. I prefer to know the actual wall thickness.





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[Jacob Vealetzek]

He hasn’t checked them out yet but he did say he was gonna do that when her gets to it probably gonna be a couple weeks before I here back he did the same with and older lc smith I bought about a year ago.

[todd allen]

Just thinking out loud here, but what about having Briley's make up a set of 20 gauge tubes for these early 10s?

[Jacob Vealetzek]

I got my 10 gauge back from the gunsmith and he gave the thumbs up to be able shoot it. Anyone know where a guy might be able to find shells suitable for old guns like this? RST isnt making 10 gauge anymore.

[Brian Dudley]

For the time being they are not.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

Yeah I called the company and asked. Is there anywhere else a guy can go to get shells for these old guns?

[Mills Morrison]

Unless you reload, your options are to find someone who has extra shells or load your own.

[Jay Oliver]

If I was just getting into a hammer 10 gauge, and RST was not an option, I would shoot/reload black powder shells. You can get brass shells like in the picture below or reload plastic shells with the same technique and hand tools. There is a company called Track of the Wolf that has all of the supplies except the black powder.

Trust me you will be enjoy it...it is fun to shoot these with the shells they would have shot when new.

That is a favorite 10 gauge of mine a #2 Frame Top Action with 30" Twist barrels.

Good luck!
Jay

[Bill Murphy]

Can you load smokeless loads in brass shells? If not, why not?

[Mills Morrison]

Can you load smokeless loads in brass shells? If not, why not?

I was just wondering the same thing. I would be tempted to try if you could

[Jay Oliver]

Bill, it depends on who makes the brass. Magtech makes thin walled brass shells(not in 10 gauge though) and black powder only is recommended. Rocky Mountain Cartridge makes higher quality turned brass shotshells that can be loaded with smokeless. I only shoot black powder in the Track of the Wolf shells, just because that is what I like. However, I do know people who use a Red Dot load that works well with the Track of the Wolf 10 gauge shells, which are high quality.

So that is a long way of saying yes it can be done in a high quality brass shell.

[Mike Franzen]

The brass shells - black powder are probably your best bet. Several years ago I wrote an article the Parker Pages about loading 10 gauge black powder brass hulls. Maybe 2015 give or take. (PGCA members have online access to every edition of the magazine). The loads you can work up are a lot of fun and can bring the full potential of the 10 gauge. I dropped a Turkey at 70 paces with no problem. The old loading tools are easy to find and the booklet Jay mentioned gives detailed instructions. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Wayne Owens]

I reload 8 and 10 gauge brass shells and never used black powder. I too wrote an article on reloading 8 gauge brass shells with only with smokeless powder for a Parker Pages article several years ago. Several Turkey's and a grouse have been taken using those shells. The 10 gauge Track of the Wolf shells have been successful for taking many dove. Light smokeless powder loads can be used in brass shells in my opinion.

[Mike Franzen]

Wayne would you happen to know when you article came out. I would like to read it. Thanks!

[Wayne Owens]

The article was included in the winter 2015 issue. Since then I have added a Italian wad and use a combination of #4 and #7 1/2 shot. It worked well on this Tom this year.

[Mike Koneski]

I was looking up some brass shell info a few months ago and saw that Rocky Mountain Cartridge has a limited supply of any brass shells. They also advertise that the equipment and/or business is for sale. Looks like the plandemic/supply chain issues caught up with them too. :banghead::crying:

[Jay Oliver]

Mike, their business has always been listed for sale as I recall. I wouldn't hesitate to place an order as they do great work.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

Can you use the same dipper for shot and powder?

[Dean Romig]

Yes but different settings for each and only to be used for black powder!!!!





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[Jacob Vealetzek]

So maybe a stupid question but I see there are dippers with measurements for powder and ones for shot if a person was only to use one which one should a guy use? Just curious.

[Jay Oliver]

First I would figure out what load you want. A light target load, heavy hunting load or something in the middle? The dippers you mentioned are often marked in drams(for powder) and in ounces(for shot).

You might run across the term "square load" which is the same setting for both powder and shot. So a scoop of powder and a scoop of shot that are the same amount by volume.

In my experience you want a little more powder than shot. Though I have done well shooting square loads and that is not a bad place to start(See attached picture) If you wanted to go shoot some clays and get a feel for the gun, I might start out with:

3 drams of 2f and 1 1/8oz of shot(that is nice light target load)

For reference, my 10 gauge hunting load is 4 drams of 2f and 1 3/8oz of shot

There are a lot of good sources online including You Tube. Load up some shells, give it a try and let us know how much fun you are having!

[Jacob Vealetzek]

That helps a lot thank you for the info!

[Bruce P Bruner]

“You might run across the term "square load" which is the same setting for both powder and shot. So a scoop of powder and a scoop of shot that are the same amount by volume”.
I use “square loads” for clay pigeons.
Keep in mind (Very Important) Square Loads are for Black Powder use only.

[Jay Oliver]

On more suggestion on this...load up some different shells with differences in powder, shot and wads and pattern it. Most fiber wads you buy are 1/2" think, I cut those in half but then put both halves in the shells. I get a much better pattern, The 1/2" wad as whole seems to push through the shot and the pattern is awful.

There is some trial and error to this that is a lot of fun to figure out. Here is the order I would load into a 10 gauge primed shell for target shooting:

1. 3 drams of 2f black powder(I also like 1 1/2f)
2. 1 - 9 gauge 1/8" nitro card
3. 2 - 1/4" 9 gauge fiber wads made from a cut 1/2" wad, use both halves and I lube with bore butter or some other type of black powder lube.(you used to be able to buy these already lubed and I use those if I still have them).
4. 1 - 9 gauge overshot card on the wads(I like the shot on a clean surface).
5. 1 1/8oz of shot
6. 1 - 9 gauge overshot card glue in with ducco cement.

The best resource I found for me was: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/329/1/BOOK-HL-10-BSS

There are some hot hunting loads in there(that work well), but you can load down for target shooting. It is such a valuable resource and I believe the author is a PGCA member.

Good luck! Every time I think about black powder shooting it makes me want to organize a hummer gun hunting trip...a few of us should get together and do this! Shooting the shells/loads our hammer guns would have shot when new.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

So I’m in the process of getting all the supplies I’ll need to start shooting this spring and I know with black powder it’s really important to clean the gun as soon after shooting as you can but I am curious how in depth of a cleaning is needed after shooting it? Does the whole gun need to be disassembled or not quite that detailed of a cleaning? And what’s best practice for the cushion was to have lubed or not lubed? I’ve read on people doing it both ways..

[Bruce P Bruner]

Soap & hot water on a patch over a bore brush, dry and oil. Shouldn’t take over 10 minutes. Simplicity and inexpensive.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

So just soak a patch in hot soapy water and then dry out good and oil it up inside and out of the barrels?

[Bruce P Bruner]

So just soak a patch in hot soapy water and then dry out good and oil it up inside and out of the barrels?

Soapy patches until nice and clean. You can alternate soap/dry, may be a bit faster. Finish with an oil patch followed with a dry one.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

Is there any particular oil that is better for old double guns or is any gun oil fine?

[Matt Buckley]

My experience has been that lubed wads are much easier to load in the brass shells. The lube also leaves a coating on the bores that may help with cleanup. Cleaning black powder is not that big of deal. A person can use just warm water and a patch. Ballistol or Gunzilla are two gun cleaning products I have used without water that do a very good job as well. Another product that muzzleloaders have found works well is Windex with Vinegar. You can buy that in a spray bottle at your local Walmart. I will use this between shots when shooting muzzleloader rifles to clean up the fowling. If I use water I then always run a 90% alchohol patch down the bores to remove any remaining moisture before oiling.

[Matt Buckley]

Birchwood Casey Barricade or Clenzoil are my go to oils for the bores

[Dean Romig]

Jacob, why not be easy on yourself and shoot modern powders loaded to produce appropriate pressures?





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[Jacob Vealetzek]

I didn’t think you could shoot smokeless powder in these old Damascus barreled shotguns.. is that not the case?

[Victor Wasylyna]

Jacob:

Black powder can be fun, but a hassle. My 10 gauge lifter sees smokeless powder 95 percent of the time. Here’s my preferred load, which uses the readily available WSF:

https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23362&highlight=WSF

-Victor

[Jacob Vealetzek]

I was gonna be using track of the wolf brass 2 5/8 hulls and all the other components from them like the circle fly wads they sell. Will all those components still work with the smokeless powder?

[Jacob Vealetzek]

A little off topic but I’m gonna be getting the letter for my gun and was unsure on the butt type. Mine just has a metal butt plate would that just be considered a recoil pad?

[charlie cleveland]

no a metal butt plate is not considered a recoil pad....a recoil psd is usally made out of rubber or some thing soft to help absorb recoil... charlie

[Jacob Vealetzek]

Ok so what would it be classified as? A DHBP or a skeleton? Per the research letter request for?

[Bruce P Bruner]

Plain metal
Skeleton
Dogs head

[Matt Buckley]

I was gonna be using track of the wolf brass 2 5/8 hulls and all the other components from them like the circle fly wads they sell. Will all those components still work with the smokeless powder?

Jacob,
Smokeless does not work very well in brass hull loading. There needs to be constant pressure put on the components and powder for ignition of smokeless powder to be consistent which is hard to do when gluing in the components into the brass. Black powder ignites easier and with a smaller primer. The other problem you run into with smokeless is knowing the pressures of what you are loading. If you stick with standard black powder loads you do not need to worry about high pressure, but with smokeless you won't know what you are getting for pressure. If you decide to go smokeless you need to find tested recipes and get the components for those recipes. Don't let having to clean up the barrels after shooting deter you from black powder. It is fun to shoot and load.

[Dean Romig]

I have three different Parkers, a 10 ga. Lifter, a 12 ga. Lifter and a 16 ga. Lifter, all chambered for metallic shells that I regularly shoot 2 3/4” modern plastic-hulled shells in… without harm in any way to the barrels. I shoot low-pressure loads exclusively.





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[Matt Buckley]

Dean,
I shoot low pressure smokeless loads all the time in my Damascus barreled Parkers as well. The problem at the moment is in regards to 10 Gauge and being able to get the components to do this. That's one reason I do shoot black powder in 10 gauge. The components for black powder shooting have been more available.

[Mike Koneski]

Jacob, I shoot BP shotgun loads in BP events and occasionally for hunting. If you are shooting a break-action gun, just remove the bbls from the action, boil some water in a teapot, slowly pour the boiled water down the bores in a slop sink. I use a "Tico Tool" type bore swab and swab the very hot bbls. Then I'll run a few dry patches through followed by lubed patches to coat the bbls with a good oil such as Clenzoil. It's really a quick and easy clean up that takes less than 5 minutes (not including boiling the water). The hotter the water, the easier the clean up as the hot water basically evaporates off the bbls.

As for smokeless shells in Damascus guns, as long as the bores haven't been honed thin and the bores are not badly pitted, you should have no problem shooting 2 3/4 dram 1 oz shells in a 12g and 2 1/2 dram 7/8-3/4 oz in 16 & 20g. Avoid heavy field loads and you and you vintage stocks will be fine.

[Jacob Vealetzek]

What would be a good load for a 10 gauge? Say for just regular clays shooting and a good turkey hunting load. That’s my main plans for this gun, fun shooting and turkey hunting maybe pheasants also.

[Mike Koneski]

22.5g Unique, SP 10 wad with a 16g 1/2" wad set in the shot cup followed by 1 1/4 oz shot. Topped with a fold crimp. If using a roll crimp top the shot with an overshot card then roll.

I also have data for using 7625, but that powder is discontinued. If you have some I can give you those recipes.

[Mike Poindexter]

Congratulations Jacob on a good buy. I also have a grade 2 lifter made in 1878. Yours has some some extra engraving on the breech balls. Let us know what the gun smith says.

Jacob, I also have a grade 2 lifter in the 13,000 s/n range, and as Mike notes, your gun has what appears to be extra factory engraving on the breech balls and at the top of the metal buttplate. Makes for an interesting and desireable gun, IMHO. Congratulations.

[mark neighbors]

I'm cleaning up a friends grandfathers 1877 10 ga lifter for display only. rough shape. I am looking for a rt side hammer and two hammer screws. I can usually find obsolete parts , but i need some help if anyone knows a site that might have these. Thanks

[Dean Romig]

Tom Carter makes perfect hammer screws.





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[mark neighbors]

Thanks

[Dean Romig]

Mark - show us a picture of the left hammer so we can look to see if we have one with the same engraving. Some of us have spare hammers stashed away....





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[mark neighbors]

I have measured a lot different loads I use and cut a piece of 1/2 in hard copper pipe, hammer one end flat, solder end. I drill a hole for a leather string, then size the load with a measure, cut and polish the copper. inert and doesn't rust. For shooting not for show.

[mark neighbors]

Im not very tech savy. it said it is attached

[Dean Romig]

Sorry Mark I have three right hammers but none are even close to that one.





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[mark neighbors]

Thank for looking

[mark neighbors]

Dean, I talked with my friend he is will to purchase a matching set with screws if you can point me in that direction. I contacted Tom Carter via email ,but have not heard anything. Thank you.

[Dean Romig]

PGCA Member Dave Fjelline in Lincoln, CA makes very nice hammers and can even have them engraved to your wishes.
He does not do computers so a telephone call is the only way, besides snail mail, to contact him.

916-521-1334





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