Ithaca SBT

[Stan Hoover]

I recently came across an early 5E Knick Silver Bird, what intrigued me about this particular one is the half pistol grip, I haven’t observed this configuration often if ever before.
I have yet to look at my catalogs, they obviously offered this, but how often do we encounter single barrel target guns in this configuration, any maker?

Stan

[ED J, MORGAN]

Great wood.

[Randy G Roberts]

There's that Ithaca wood again. Nice gun Stanley :clap:

[Dave Noreen]

Great!! First Knick I've seen with a half-pistol grip.

My No. 4E NID 20-gauge is the only NID I've seen with the half-pistol grip --

108360

The 1925 Ithaca Gun Co. catalog states "Full pistol or straight grip."

108366

The 1926 Ithaca Gun Co. catalog states "Full pistol grip unless straight ordered."

The 1932 Ithaca Gun Co. catalog states "Full pistol grip unless otherwise ordered."

[Joseph Sheerin]

Wow, I really like that! Congrats!

[Stan Hoover]

Thanks Dave,

That confirms what I was thinking, I hadn't remembered seeing a Knick with half pistol grip before neither.
I really need to do some research on the original owner of this Knick, he had his name engraved on the barrel and also in the gold shield, he must have preferred the half pistol grip.

It is what I consider the somewhat rare Knick with a 34" barrel. (This was also probably requested on the order)

I do not have any NID's with the half pistol grip,

My preference is a capped pistol grip, or half pistol grip. Thankfully I'm not a fan of straight grip stocks, or then I would have to compete with many others who consider that a plus.

Stan

[Bill Murphy]

Your Knick is a great find. You can find the name of the original owner from Cody. Expensive, but the only way now that the records have been sent to Cody. It would be worth the cost. Since the name of some owner is engraved on the gun, you might consider sharing it in case one of us would recognize it.

[Stan Hoover]

Hey Bill,

The name of the gentleman is RM Gegner, also below his name on the gold shield is

5-12-38
Xenia IL

So far I've been unable to come up with any thing thru Google, I do have a membership at Cody and will be ordering a letter

Stan

[Mike Franzen]

Beautiful gun Stan. I love the checkering. A true work of art.

[Stan Hoover]

Thanks for the kind words guys, I'm probably more thrilled with it since I have it in hand.

When I first noticed the gun and the half pistol grip, it caught my attention, then when I learned that the barrel was 34", I knew I was really interested:)

Do you guys with Parker, Fox, Smith, Lefever, Baker SBT guns have any with half pistol grips, I just don't remember seeing it before, maybe not a target gun feature?

Stan

[John Davis]

A first for me.

[TOM DAMIANI]

Another great ithaca that requires your shooting talent.

[Bill Murphy]

Mr. Gegner shot no registered birds in Illinois from 1936 to 1940. He must have been a casual shooter, who shot a great gun.

[Stan Hoover]

Thanks Bill,
there seems to be a missing link in the history on this one, according to the serial #. 401700T, it would have been a 1929 gun, but the date on the shield is 1938:confused: I hope to find out more information from Cody!

Tom,
will you let me shoot my new to me Ithaca SBT with you at Rock Mtn like we did last year?

I suggest we shoot the Ithaca's earlier in the day when we can actually see the targets, sound like a plan?

Stan

[Dave Noreen]

The cut of the Fox SBT used in all the A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogs from 1919 through 1929 and the Savage era A.H. Fox catalogs through 1934 show a half-pistol grip. The Savage era Trap Gun folder and their 1935 A.H. Fox catalog show a full pistol grip monte carlo stock.

The only Fox SBT I've saved pictures of with a half-pistol grip is the very last one made, 400568 --

108451

[John Eurom]

My Royal Gun Co. SBT (LEFEVER) is not a round knob but the contour is certainly semi-pistol grip

[Bill Murphy]

Stan, I'll check on our guy back in the twenties. Maybe I'll find something.

[Stan Hoover]

Thanks Bill,
I actually received my research form (not a factory letter) back this afternoon, I'm trying to put it up here so you guys can see it, it doesn't seem like this gun was special ordered by anyone as it passed through a few hands in it's first year.

The first date given is in 1928, then in 1930 it was invoiced and shipped to Billings Montana, and then possibly returned I guess, and then sent to Ohio, and then later invoiced again and delivered by John Boa at the Great American Handicap, all in 1930.

So it seems like this gun has been around, maybe not necessarily owned by anyone well known, the search continues:whistle:

Stan

[Daryl Corona]

Well you're well known Stan, so there.:bowdown:

[Stan Hoover]

You’ve got it all wrong Daryl, I try to hang out with people that are well known,

like ride to South Dakota with them, get the police called on us when the vehicle leaves us set:)

The serial # research by Cody

[Bill Murphy]

Stan, no ATA birds shot by your guy from 1928 to 1940. However, I located the original order for your gun. It was part of a John Boa order for the Grand American, that included 18 single trap guns as well as many NIDs. Beeson, from Tippecanoe City, Ohio, is the guy that received the guns near the site of the Grand, so Boa wouldn't have to transport them back and forth over the Canadian border. Boa was a Canadian and a volume Ithaca dealer. Many different people were mentioned in order #10575S, but Gegner was not one of them. Your gun was/is the last gun listed in the long list, my Sousa Knick was two guns before your 5E. Luckily, the final purchaser of my Sousa was included in the names mentioned in the Boa order. I hope all this is of interest to you.

[Bill Murphy]

Stan, apparently the ultimate purchaser of your 5E was Jim Kelley, who I could find no mention of in ATA records. He either liked it and kept it, but didn't shoot registered birds, or he sold it through his sporting goods store. Oddly, there were two Knick Sousa Grade guns in the Boa order, twenty percent of the total production. My Sousa is the last Knick and the highest serial number of identified Knick Sousas. In depression days, these pricey guns were sent back and forth between the factory and dealers, sometimes for years. It was the same way at Parker Brothers.

[Bill Murphy]

Stan, are you sure the inscription is Gegner, Zenia, Illinois and not Zenia, Ohio? Raymond Gegner in Zenia, Ohio is quite an interesting personality. I could find no Gegners in Illinois.

[Stan Hoover]

Bill,
It looks like Xenia, I believe that is Il for Illinois for the state?

I appreciate all your help, I’m curious how you found the order that went to John Boa if you don’t mind me asking?
Stan

[Bill Murphy]

Stan, that is O for Ohio, not IL for Illinois. The Ohio guy is an interesting personality on Google. Look him up. I'll answer your question when you get back to me. Good luck, buddy.

[Stan Hoover]

Bill,
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, or how you're doing your search, but I'm not coming up with much on Raymond Gegner?

That's some great information on the order. Must of been one h''ll of an order, 2 Sousa's!

So my 5E was 2 guns behind your Sousa, I'm assuming that is on the order and not necessarily in serial number?

Much Appreciated,
Stan

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, serial numbers were random and Knicks were mixed in with NIDs. PM me with your email address and I'll send you scans of the order and you can post them here if you wish.

[Dave Noreen]

Knicks were mixed in with NIDs.

No, they weren't. Knicks started at 400000 and NIDs started at 425000.

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, I think we knew that. Stan and I were referring to the guns on the order, not their serial numbers. Knicks and NIDs were mixed on the order. I have sent Stan a scan of the order sheet so he can find his gun. Stan, the email went out just a short time ago. Let me know that you got it and please post the scan on this site so everyone can enjoy.

[Stan Hoover]

Bill,
I’m not sure if you’re entering my email address incorrectly, I haven’t received anything yet?
Stan

[Bill Murphy]

Stan, I checked and everything seems to be OK. Can you check your trash box to see whether your computer rejected because of the scans attached? I sent an email without the scans to the same address to check.

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, had your email wrong. Just sent the scans again.

[Stan Hoover]

Thanks Bill,

Here it is

[Bill Murphy]

Stan, that is obviously the original Ithaca order book that coincidentally includes both your great 5E and my Sousa. Hope you enjoy looking. Both of our guns were probably shot at the 1930 Grand American Handicap, at least test fired.

[Stan Hoover]

Stan, that is obviously the original Ithaca order book that coincidentally includes both your great 5E and my Sousa. Hope you enjoy looking. Both of our guns were probably shot at the 1930 Grand American Handicap, at least test fired.

That’s great Bill,

I will be checking a few other of those serial numbers,

How about we unite these guns again at Rock Mtn, shoot a round of wobble trap?

Stan

[Dave Noreen]

From this invoice, by October 1942 these fully loaded NID trap guns, most in the same serial number range as those in the 1930 invoice, were going cheap to the Dardevle man in Detroit.

108540

[Bill Murphy]

Interesting invoice, Dave. This kind of low ball pricing of our favorite shotguns happened to all companies. The thirties were a bad time. The classified ads in the 1930s American Rifleman make for very interesting reading.

[Kevin McCormack]

This is one of the greatest threads of the past 3 months, but it is beginning to test my patience severely! We need to see MORE pictures of these great Ithaca SBTs and more definitive information (Stan, is the "Silver Bird" gun inlaid with silver or platinum? - I actually shot a 6 or 7E grade around 1970 that had a pheasant inlaid on the receiver in platinum!)

Owners of these gems of the bygone age need to bring them out to shoots more and more so we can oogle, handle, and (if it suits the owners) actually shoot them to experience the niche of the 'Golden Age' of American trapshooting. Of course, the candidate shooter(s) need to be worthy of the task - when Bill Murphy offered to let me shoot his Sousa Grade SBT from the 27 yard line, I jumped at the chance - then ran the station (2 birds!!).

I have long thought that Ithaca Guns had the most beautiful checkering patterns and execution, especially in the higher grades. I hope we see more of them at our upcoming events and shoots; looking forward to some gems at The Rock next week!

[Dave Noreen]

The 1926 Ithaca catalog says the No. 5 inlays are pure silver, English Pheasant on the left side and "Bob White" of the Southland on the right. By the 1932 catalog the text is "pure gold or silver" and the right side is changed to a vanishing Woodcock.

[Kevin McCormack]

The 1926 Ithaca catalog says the No. 5 inlays are pure silver, English Pheasant on the left side and "Bob White" of the Southland on the right. By the 1932 catalog the text is "pure gold or silver" and the right side is changed to a vanishing Woodcock.

I would love to track down the Ithaca factory order for the gun I am referring to. It was owned by Ralph Luttrell, one of the Founding Fathers and very heavy hitters of the National Capital Gun Club, earlier of Washington DC and later moved to Darnestown, MD. Mr. Luttrell was a wealthy DC attorney who had a stable of high grade SBT guns of all makes; Parkers, LC Smiths, Ithacas, Levevers, etc.

One day after struggling though a round of trap with our 20ga. field pump guns, Mr. Luttrell chastised a friend and I for not using a "real" trap gun for the game. When we told him we didn't own any "real" trap guns, he popped open the trunk of his Lincoln Continental and said, "pick one out that fits you. If you're going to shoot trap with me, you need to use a real trap gun!"

The gun that happened to best fit my friend was a Parker SC SBT 32". The one that happened to fit me best turned out to be a "Silver Bird" Ithaca, either a 6 or 7 E (I assumed commensurate with the engraving coverage). When I remarked to him that I had never seen a shotgun inlaid with Sterling silver, he replied a little indignantly, "That's not silver; its platinum!". Mr. Luttrell wound up shooting a very high grade LC Smith SBT. It was a great experience!

[Stan Hoover]

Kevin,

Like Dave said, I’m not aware that Platinum was ever used, the guns I’ve seen were all Grade 5’s that had Silver, I’ve not observed a higher grade with Silver, although I think the Grade 6 guns had some Silver on the detail of the Indian archer on the side.

The manufacturer’s would of course build a gun to a customers specs, so I guess Platinum could have been requested.

There was a gentleman on this site who recently purchased a NID 5E trap gun with the Silver birds, he suggested that they’re Platinum?

I would have to seek an expert to tell me the difference, I do not know how to tell the difference.

Stan

[Bill Murphy]

Kevin gave us an entertaining post about some of his experiences in an earlier time. The "Ralph Luttrell" he mentions was my boss in the late sixties when I was in my early twenties and the general manager of the National Capitol Skeet and Trap club and Mr. Luttrell was the president of the club and responsible for hiring me. My recollection is similar to Kevin's experience with Mr. Luttrell, who once gave me a Model 97 trap gun and a box of shells and sent me to the field for a test round. The gun was defective, would not lock in place to fire and was a potential death trap. I returned the gun to him with the comment that the gun "needed some work".

[Bill Murphy]

Stan and other readers, did you notice that the Ithaca order not only contains 20% of the total production of Sousa Grade Knicks, but also contains another rarity, a Knick with a Cutts Compensator?

[Stan Hoover]

Stan and other readers, did you notice that the Ithaca order not only contains 20% of the total production of Sousa Grade Knicks, but also contains another rarity, a Knick with a Cutts Compensator?

I did notice that Bill,

what an awful abomination to ruin the looks of a great trap gun:eek:

Maybe you like them, I have no experience with them and I think I’ll just stay with shooting poorly before I resort to trying something as ugly as that.

I apologize if I stepped on any toes,

Stan

[Stan Hoover]

This is one of the greatest threads of the past 3 months, but it is beginning to test my patience severely! We need to see MORE pictures of these great Ithaca SBTs and more definitive information

Kevin,

I will do my best to oblige with more pictures later this evening. I wish I could show you a Sousa grade like Bill has, but unfortunately I parted with a 7E and a Sousa 12 years ago, thought I needed to utilize the money other places:cuss:

Stan

[Dave Noreen]

Thumbing through the NID pictures I've saved, I still see silver birds on No. 5Es to 453707 --

108562

and gold birds by 455765 --

108563

[Stan Hoover]

Kevin,
We may be able to get this one adjusted to fit you:)

I would think this one was probably a regular at the Grand American and probably adjusted for many different shooters.

Was it easier to build the adjustable stock around the straight grip, or why the straight grip? I know the English grip was fairly common on the Flues SBT.

I just wonder what happened to the original barrels, were they damaged while shooting or….. I’ve been watching for a 34” Flues barrel that is reasonably close in serial number, tried a few, but haven’t located one that fits better than the one it currently wears.

I would have to double check if Walt stated that the Ithaca inlays are Silver in his book, I think they are Silver.

[Bill Murphy]

Stan I assume you own this great A. P. Curtis try gun. What a great gun. A local collector owned a Curtis gun like the one pictured for many years, offered it for sale for around $1500 and had a rough time getting a buyer. I'm sorry I missed out. Can you remember the serial number of your Sousa so I can add it to my list if it isn't already there?

[Stan Hoover]

Bill,

The try gun is aspecial one and yes, I am the caretaker of it currently. I will have to put that serial # up, maybe someone can help me out with a barrel that fits better.

The Knick Sousa was serial # 400355T

Stan

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks, Stan. I have that Sousa serial number in my files. I don't think we will ever find that more than 10 Sousa Knicks exist since Walt Snyder searched the records for me well into the Dollar Grade era and didn't find any more Sousas. Are you saying that the barrel on your Curtis gun is not the one that was made for it at time of manufacture?

[Stan Hoover]

That’s correct Bill,
the barrel currently on the Curtis Try gun is not the original, it is on face but was never fitted properly. I’ve tried different Flues barrels on it and I was surprised how the contour of where the barrel meets the action varies very much from one gun to the next.

I’ve included a few pictures of a Grade 6 Flues with some close pictures of the engraving and the different inlays. This gun was restocked and recase colored as it was pretty poor condition when I bought it.
The white/silver inlay seems to be much lighter than my other guns with Silver inlay, could it be white Gold?

[Bill Murphy]

At Grade 6, I would think the inlays are yellow and white gold, similar to the combination used on the Sousa. Also, to answer your question about straight grip try guns, my Curtis GH try gun is a pistol grip, all wood from the original gun.

[Phil Yearout]

The inlays on my 5E Knick are silver I guess. According to Walt Snyder it went to Phil Bekheart in San Francisco in 1929.

https://i.imgur.com/da8wvGLl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VtB28mWl.jpg

[Ken Descovich]

Thought I would post some pictures of my 7E while I try and cool off from the heat.

[Stan Hoover]

I snapped a few pictures of my 2 Knicks with Silver inlaid birds. Your 5E looks very similar Phil, are we close on serial #?

Upper one is serial #401718
Lower one is serial #401700

[Phil Yearout]

Stan, mine's 401852

[Phil Yearout]

By the way, I was noticing the difference in trigger guard shapes on your two 5E's. Anything about that you'd care to share?

[Stan Hoover]

By the way, I was noticing the difference in trigger guard shapes on your two 5E's. Anything about that you'd care to share?

Good eye Phil,
I missed the shape of the trigger guard completely. I do know I was intrigued how the trigger on the upper gun is engraved/knurled from edge to edge, perhaps requested by the original owner, or changed by a later owner?

I was too busy comparing the engraving and the shapes of the birds, I’ve found subtle differences but they look to be by the same engraver.

The one difference I picked up on is in the border, was this perhaps done by an apprentice or junior engraver and then the birds done by a senior engraver?

Stan

[John Wayman]

Mr Hoover, VERY cool gun. I’m no expert, but have never seen a similar grip on an Ithaca SBT. Another beautiful custom job from Fall Creek! Enjoy. I just picked up a 4E NID from a collector (not shooter) that is in beautiful condition. Nice picture of you and my friend Craig Larter on the Parker pages!
Best, john Wayman

[John Wayman]

Walt Snyder informed me that a soft pencil eraser will shine up the gold and silver inlays without damaging them. I tried that on my 7E Flues SBT and was amazed how the inlays really popped afterward!!

[John Wayman]

Mr Hoover, VERY cool gun. I’m no expert, but have never seen a similar grip on an Ithaca SBT. Another beautiful custom job from Fall Creek! Enjoy. I just picked up a 4E NID from a collector (not shooter) that is in beautiful condition. Nice picture of you and my friend Craig Larter on the Parker pages!
Best, john Wayman