Regarding “Prayers for Healing” and an update

[Mike Koneski]

Our injured brother and I have been conversing and he still requests anonymity until he feels comfortable talking about what happened. Our brother thanks you all for lifting him up in prayer. From our brother who may be down now, but he’ll be back!!

“Surgery went amazing. We’re already ahead of anything I thought was possible. If you could post that we’ve communicated and that I’m greatly appreciative of all the thoughts and prayers and I’m making great progress I’d appreciate it.”

So there you go guys and gals!

[todd allen]

Thanks for the update.

[Stan Hillis]

Thanks to you for the update, and to the Father who heard and answered the prayers.

[Mills Morrison]

Good news! Hope progress continues

[Mike Koneski]

Photos of the gun coming soon.

[Mike Koneski]

Here are a few photos of the barrels.

[Stan Hillis]

I strongly believe that was caused by an obstruction in the bore, possibly a base wad from the previous load.

The shooter must have been left-handed.

[Mills Morrison]

Is Drew Hause around? He is the expert on barrel failures

[Stan Hillis]

This is another reminder for me to train myself even more to check the bores before loading each time. I attempt it, but do not have it "down pat", and often just drop in two more loads without checking the barrels for daylight at the muzzles.

[Russell E. Cleary]

This is another reminder for me to train myself even more to check the bores before loading each time. I attempt it, but do not have it "down pat", and often just drop in two more loads without checking the barrels for daylight at the muzzles.

I discussed this with a member of my weekend skeet group. He shoots an O/U; I only shoot the side-by-sides these days. We both agreed that we check the bores between shots frequently but fail to do so very time.

Is this not a good argument for the inherent safety of a break-open gun, especially if you are reloading your own shells?

Glad to hear that our fellow PGCA member has had some successful treatment.

His name may be unknown to me, I will continue to pray for continued progress with his recovery.

[Mike Koneski]

He was shooting Winchester Lite 20g shells.

[Mills Morrison]

I agree sxs's and o/u's are safer for the ability to visually check bores between shots. I try to do it but don't always. This reminds me to work harder to check every time.

Identity is not important and I would not want to talk about it either. I just hope for the best.

[Daryl Corona]

Looks like an obstruction. I have for years as part of my pre shot routine, blown through my barrels to clear smoke and and check for daylight then align two new rounds with the headstamps vertical. Praying for a speedy recovery.

[Stan Hillis]

Good routine, Daryl.

When I'm shooting sporting I have a tendency to load and shoot fast, especially so when I kill the first pair cleanly. I know then that my lead pictures are right and I want to get to the next pair asap. I really need to change my routine to accommodate a quick view down the bores.

[Mike Franzen]

Has any research ever been done to see if a wad in the barrel can cause a rupture?

[Pete Lester]

I agree identity is not important, frankly it could have happened to any us. It's terrible that someone was seriously hurt and a beautiful gun catastrophically damaged. I guess one of the next questions is how thick are the barrel walls at the point of rupture. It certainly appears to be a barrel obstruction. I have often wondered if such a thing could happen by a delayed detonation of the powder where the ejecta moves forward by the force of the primer and a slow burn and then detonation of the powder occurs further down the barrel rather than in the chamber where the barrel walls are much thicker. Mike mentioned the shooter was using "Winchester Lite", if those shells use the AA HS hull I don't believe there is a base wad. I hope the shooter heals up back to normal and that an investigation/inspection can determine what caused this. Thanks for sharing.

[Dean Romig]

Judging by the pics Mike showed the wall thickness there looks perfectly adequate, leading me to believe it must have been an obstruction that caused the rupture.





.

[Daryl Corona]

Has any research ever been done to see if a wad in the barrel can cause a rupture?

Mike, I've had wads that had been stuck in a barrel and could be blown out, others needed a rod to clear them. So yes, I believe that a stuck wad could cause a dangerous momentary spike in pressure and cause this. But I don't want to find out.

[Pete Lester]

Mike, I've had wads that had been stuck in a barrel and could be blown out, others needed a rod to clear them. So yes, I believe that a stuck wad could cause a dangerous momentary spike in pressure and cause this. But I don't want to find out.

Usually the only place a wad gets really stuck is in the choke. Which reminds me. As a long time ATA shooter on the rare occasions I had a squib with a stuck wad I would open the action, push the wad back into the barrel with my finger and then blow the wad out the back end of the barrel with my mouth so as not create a longer disruption for the squad. I did not invent this method of clearing a barrel lol. It worked 90% of the time and ya carbon doesn't taste that good but there was a water bottle waiting for me when the round ended. Trapshooters, we are the same guys that rest the muzzle of a gun on our toes between shots lol.

[Daryl Corona]

Good routine, Daryl.

When I'm shooting sporting I have a tendency to load and shoot fast, especially so when I kill the first pair cleanly. I know then that my lead pictures are right and I want to get to the next pair asap. I really need to change my routine to accommodate a quick view down the bores.

I'm just the opposite Stan, I like to slow down and be deliberate, running the visual sequence through my mind's eye. We both know sometimes you're on and sometimes you're off. I still blow through my barrels and more than once someone on the squad makes mention of it. Every now and then a shot will sound "off". Don't ignore that.

[Kevin McCormack]

Crappy ammo has a lot to do with it. A couple of weeks ago I was on the last station of a round of skeet, shooting some old cheap promotional ammo in a very minty Remington M11-48 28 gauge autoloader. The report from the gun on the high house bird was wierd, and the action locked up. When I looked at the receiver, the recoil had ripped the psudo-brass shell head right off the shell and lodged it sideways in the breech. For safety I cleared the action and took the barrel off the gun and looked down the bore, which showed a heavy shadow about 6 inches down from the chamber. You could see daylight through the bore clearly, but something didn't look right, so I took a rod and pushed it through the bore. Turns out when the head ripped off the cartridge, the complete hull casing itself lodged in the bore. I hate to think what would have happened if I hadn't checked it. You can't be too careful!

[Dean Romig]

Every now and then a shot will sound "off". Don't ignore that.


ABSOLUTELY NEVER IGNORE THAT “OFF” SOUNDING SHOT.





.

[Bill Murphy]

Mike Franzen, yes, a wad stuck in the barrel can cause a rupture. I have a Remington 3200 barrel set blown out just ahead of the forend. There was a wad in the barrel and the shooter forgot about it and later loaded and shot it. Another problem area is those dang factory shells. They can't be trusted, so shoot reloads.

[Arthur Shaffer]

Judging by the pics Mike showed the wall thickness there looks perfectly adequate, leading me to believe it must have been an obstruction that caused the rupture.





.

I agree with Dean. The barrels look really adequate.

The thing that strikes me is the apherical shape of the failure. It is like a giant bubble and the steel in the front part of the failure is literally pulled inward quite a bit. Trying to envision this failure, it looks like a giant bubble grew in the barrel, sucking the front portion inward begroe the rupture moved forward. It looks like something a complete blockage would cause. I'm not a metalurgist, but worked with them in engineering for 35 years and looked at a lot of high pressure refinery pipe failures, and normal open tube failures just don't look like that. I would have expected a welled and burst tube, but with everything in the faild region pushed outward. This looks like it swelled tremendously locally before the final rupture occured.

[Mike Koneski]

The last shell fired in that barrel is still in the gun and will be examined but what is really needed for proper analysis would be the previous shell that could have caused the obstruction. Those new style Winchester shells are known for the base wad separating and lodging in the barrel. I've had factory paper hulls have the paper body separate from the brass head. Had that happen at the Southern this year in the 16g Challenge. Not cool Baxter. :nono:

[Daniel Carter]

I have been involved with 3 " shoot offs" in which the plastic casing lodged in the barrel. The first an 870 20 ga., i saw the brass eject but no hull and stopped the shooter. About 6 inches in the hull took a hammer and metal rod to get out, would have been disastrous. Next an 1100 12 ga. on the second shot on doubles exploded seriously injuring the shooter. We found the casing on the ground and the brass from the first shell Gun was destroyed, no part of the fore arm was recognizable. Third a 410 would not close when loading. Shooter was trying to force it closed when i asked to take the pump down and found the plastic blocking the barrel. If he had managed to close the action it would have been ugly.
Only the 12 was a reload the others 2 different makes of factory ammo.
I always check the barrels no matter what and will try to get a photo of the 1100 in that one of the members mounted all the recovered parts on a board and hung it in the club house.

[Arthur Shaffer]

I can remember in the 70's when I started trapshooting a lot of the shooters complaining about double A's separating. I had two come off in an 870 TC I shot at the time. Saw both begore anything happened. This was not uncommon. It seemed to me that a lot of them occured in guns with larger chambers or generous headspace. With trapshooters, these were almost always reloads. In those days there was a huge financial advantage to this. Seems a good reason to try for minimium resizing.

[charlie cleveland]

good thing I learned about looking down the barrel after a shot....I ve had several base wads come loose in my 8 ga parker and lodge 2/3 rds down the barrel...had a 10 ga Ithaca magnum the brass was thrown out but the plastic hung up in the barrel and another shell would not load all the way....then when I hunted squirls on a rainey day my paper hull shells a 12 ga they would shoot but I noticed I got to were I could not hit any thing....lhappen to look down and seen the brass end of the shell but no paper...them shells were so wet and soaked they would shoot but they were just like cut shells or ringed shells...I guess I was lucky I was shooting a imp..cly barrel in amodel 11 Remington... while dove hunting or fast shooting a person will not usally look down the barrel after every shot esp.if its a pump or auto...charlie

[randall rosenthal]

ok...this is why i joined. i learned enough in this one thread to make it more than worth my time . as a complete newbe to old shotguns i've got a lot to learn. thank you! i sincerely hope for the best for the injured party..