The Vintage Nontoxic Ammo Quest: 20 Gauge

[MIKE FISHER]

Realizing that everybody has been in the same boat, altho the gauge may vary, for a LONG time, and this is no doubt a hopeless question, has anyone had any luck finding 7 or 8 shot (or even 6), bismuth or tungsten, or ?, for vintage SxS's? Have been watching, like many others, RST for a couple of years now and doesn't appear that any 20 gauge relief is in sight. Am interested in ammo for snipe and woodcock in particular, but ruff's also. Have used some Kent Upland when I could find it, but would like a little gentler load. Any insight, or suggestions appreciated

[Garry L Gordon]

Realizing that everybody has been in the same boat, altho the gauge may vary, for a LONG time, and this is no doubt a hopeless question, has anyone had any luck finding 7 or 8 shot (or even 6), bismuth or tungsten, or ?, for vintage SxS's? Have been watching, like many others, RST for a couple of years now and doesn't appear that any 20 gauge relief is in sight. Am interested in ammo for snipe and woodcock in particular, but ruff's also. Have used some Kent Upland when I could find it, but would like a little gentler load. Any insight, or suggestions appreciated

Mike, I’ll be interested to see any response you get. You’re not alone in your quest.

[Reggie Bishop]

I bought a flat of 20 gauge RST a couple of weeks ago. Not bismuth though. RST has had various gauges available from time to time, you just have to watch their website and buy it when they have it. I have bought a flat of 28 gauge as well. And I noticed not long ago they had 16 gauge #6 shot available. I guess what I trying to say with way too many words is that if you watch their website frequently you can find it. I have way more 20 and 28 gauge than I need.

[MIKE FISHER]

Reggie,
Yours is actually an incredibly helpful reply to me, as I've been ckg RST for a couple of years now, altho not frequently, and thot I was wasting my time. Their site wording never seemed to change and I assumed they never had anything. Letting me know that it's worth more frequent cks is an important bit of info. THANKS!!!

[Garry L Gordon]

Reggie,
Yours is actually an incredibly helpful reply to me, as I've been ckg RST for a couple of years now, altho not frequently, and thot I was wasting my time. Their site wording never seemed to change and I assumed they never had anything. Letting me know that it's worth more frequent cks is an important bit of info. THANKS!!!

Like Reggie, I picked up RST shells recently whenever they had them (and I check regularly). I also got some at Hausemann's and on the second day, they said I could buy as many boxes as I wanted. For a while, they had some non-toxic shells on their web site, and I bought some of those, too. I don't have many 20 or 16 non-toxic shells however, and there are places in Iowa and OK that we hunt where no lead is allowed...so I'm still hoping to score some of those. I am ready for ducks with non-toxic 12 gauge RSTs for this Fall...and with as little duck hunting as I do, my stash will probably last me several more years...thank goodness. Now, if only I can last that long.:banghead:

[Milton C Starr]

BPI has 20 gauge paper Cheddites in stock and various 20 gauge wads, rotometals has bismuth in all sizes in stock just need to find your choice of powder which is probably the hard part though gunbroker usually has any powder if you want to pay a premium.

[MIKE FISHER]

Like Reggie, I picked up RST shells recently whenever they had them (and I check regularly). I also got some at Hausemann's and on the second day, they said I could buy as many boxes as I wanted. For a while, they had some non-toxic shells on their web site, and I bought some of those, too. I don't have many 20 or 16 non-toxic shells however, and there are places in Iowa and OK that we hunt where no lead is allowed...so I'm still hoping to score some of those. I am ready for ducks with non-toxic 12 gauge RSTs for this Fall...and with as little duck hunting as I do, my stash will probably last me several more years...thank goodness. Now, if only I can last that long.:banghead:

Thanks Gary; Hausemann's was not my source list, but will be now.

Mike

[MIKE FISHER]

BPI has 20 gauge paper Cheddites in stock and various 20 gauge wads, rotometals has bismuth in all sizes in stock just need to find your choice of powder which is probably the hard part though gunbroker usually has any powder if you want to pay a premium.

Good point, Milton. I've actually been thinking about starting to reload bismuth, but I'm sort of an "indifferent" reloader. By that I mean that I hate to readjust my press and so for the last many years I've only reloaded AA's (plus I like them, altho I like working w/the old AA's WAY more than the new!). I [I]really[I] don't want to "complicate" my life by adding a bunch of different components, altho if commercial vintage bismuth availability doesn't improve, I may have to compromise my simplicity! I am considering the few bismuth recipes available for AA's, altho as you know there aren't many; and a bigger problem for me is that they tend to be hotter than the RST Nice Shot loads and I like to keep the pressure low in our (wife & I) vintagers.

I'm setup for reloading vintage pressures for lead, so I'm OK there, altho my wife doesn't want to shoot lead except at the skeet range. In the past her shooting was limited enough that I could keep up w/here thru RST, but that's fast coming to a close.

[Aaron Beck]

If you can reload lead you might reload bismuth with minimal hassle. Suppose you bought a roll crimper and used this for your bismuth hunting loads, wouldnt have to change the reloader around (the fussy part anyway). Testing a few could corroborate the general assumption that roll crimps may lower pressure and bismuth will raise pressure to arrive at a happy medium. 20 ga no tox that is safe in old guns and with low pressure and velocity is a small market. Boss is also worth investigating.

[Milton C Starr]

Good point, Milton. I've actually been thinking about starting to reload bismuth, but I'm sort of an "indifferent" reloader. By that I mean that I hate to readjust my press and so for the last many years I've only reloaded AA's (plus I like them, altho I like working w/the old AA's WAY more than the new!). I [I]really[I] don't want to "complicate" my life by adding a bunch of different components, altho if commercial vintage bismuth availability doesn't improve, I may have to compromise my simplicity! I am considering the few bismuth recipes available for AA's, altho as you know there aren't many; and a bigger problem for me is that they tend to be hotter than the RST Nice Shot loads and I like to keep the pressure low in our (wife & I) vintagers.

I'm setup for reloading vintage pressures for lead, so I'm OK there, altho my wife doesn't want to shoot lead except at the skeet range. In the past her shooting was limited enough that I could keep up w/here thru RST, but that's fast coming to a close.

I know what you mean by keeping things simple, same reason I havnt bought a vintage 16 ga double Im already reloading for 2 "obsolete" gauges adding a 3rd to the mix starts to sound like work :rotf:. Roll crimping may bring pressures down on those published bismuth loads, you can always have Precision Reloading pressure test them if you wanted to go that route. A straight walled hull should generate lower pressures as well but im not familiar with the AAs or their design. Another option would be to get some gauge adapters 20 to 28 ga and run the Boss Bismuth they in theory should produce less pressure in the bigger 20 gauge bore.

[MARK KIRCHER]

I have 3 jugs of #4 Bismuth and 1 jug of # 2 I can part with. PM me if interested.

[Zacharysmith]

We need to get Boss shotshells on board with making some lighter pressure loads. I have asked them a few times over the years to consider it. Heard about a year ago that something was in the works but nothing since. I hear great things about their shells.

[CraigThompson]

I’ve loaded bismuth in all gauges from 10 to 28 . I use the same load I use for lead in each gauge . And I load the standard weights 1 1/4 for the 10 , 1 1/8 for the 12 , ounce for the 16 , 7/8 for the 20 and 3/4 for the 28 . In the past I used to weigh each shot charge now I drop the 10-12 and 16 from the loader for the 20/28 it’s quicker to use a dipper and hand fill as coarse shot bridges terribly in the 20 and 28 drop tubes . Plus I rarely load more than a box or two of bismuth at a time .

[MIKE FISHER]

If you can reload lead you might reload bismuth with minimal hassle. Suppose you bought a roll crimper and used this for your bismuth hunting loads, wouldnt have to change the reloader around (the fussy part anyway). Testing a few could corroborate the general assumption that roll crimps may lower pressure and bismuth will raise pressure to arrive at a happy medium. 20 ga no tox that is safe in old guns and with low pressure and velocity is a small market. Boss is also worth investigating.

Good points, I hadn't thot of a roll crimper, and had only recently heard of Boss. One of the subsequent posts on this thread indicates that Boss apparently doesn't load a vintage low pressure round. You're no doubt right that vintage low is a small market and probably the first thing dropped in these tough times; also the last to probably be resumed. Thanks for your help.

Mike

[MIKE FISHER]

Wasn't aware of roll crimping reducing pressure, so that's intriguing, altho I'd have to add that new equipment to the inventory; don't roll crimp now. The smaller gauge inserts in the 20 ga is another angle I hadn't thot of, altho not sure how hard 28 ga bismuth is to find. Also, wasn't aware of Precision Reloading. AA's are straight walled, altho the base is tapered. Thanks for the ideas.

[MIKE FISHER]

I have 3 jugs of #4 Bismuth and 1 jug of # 2 I can part with. PM me if interested.

Much appreciated Mark, but I'm only needing bismuth in the small shot sizes.

[MIKE FISHER]

I’ve loaded bismuth in all gauges from 10 to 28 . I use the same load I use for lead in each gauge . And I load the standard weights 1 1/4 for the 10 , 1 1/8 for the 12 , ounce for the 16 , 7/8 for the 20 and 3/4 for the 28 . In the past I used to weigh each shot charge now I drop the 10-12 and 16 from the loader for the 20/28 it’s quicker to use a dipper and hand fill as coarse shot bridges terribly in the 20 and 28 drop tubes . Plus I rarely load more than a box or two of bismuth at a time .

Appreciate the pointers, Craig - thanks!

[todd allen]

I have reloaded light 12 gauge loads for years, but have never reloaded Bismuth, so I am barely qualified to advise anyone on this.
That said, if you are loading based on volume, and not weight, I would think the lighter Bismuth payload should automatically be a lower pressure load than an equivalent volume of lead, everything else being equal.

[Milton C Starr]

Probably the best thing to do if you come up with a load that in theory should be safe is just spend the $40 or whatever it is and have Precision Reloading test them. Like if you used that bismuth data thats in the 10k psi range ideally if they were rolled crimped and used a fiber wad the pressures theoretically should drop by a noticeable degree but having them tested would give you some concrete data. As well roll crimping depth can raise or lower pressures but no one ever lists what depth they roll crimp to.

[MIKE FISHER]

Probably the best thing to do if you come up with a load that in theory should be safe is just spend the $40 or whatever it is and have Precision Reloading test them. Like if you used that bismuth data thats in the 10k psi range ideally if they were rolled crimped and used a fiber wad the pressures theoretically should drop by a noticeable degree but having them tested would give you some concrete data. As well roll crimping depth can raise or lower pressures but no one ever lists what depth they roll crimp to.

OK, helps to have a little idea of the price range and process. Never thot about the depth of the roll crimp making a difference; of course, I have not considered roll crimping before. Thx again.

[Bobby Cash]

I’ve loaded bismuth in all gauges from 10 to 28 . I use the same load I use for lead in each gauge . And I load the standard weights 1 1/4 for the 10 , 1 1/8 for the 12 , ounce for the 16 , 7/8 for the 20 and 3/4 for the 28 . In the past I used to weigh each shot charge now I drop the 10-12 and 16 from the loader for the 20/28 it’s quicker to use a dipper and hand fill as coarse shot bridges terribly in the 20 and 28 drop tubes . Plus I rarely load more than a box or two of bismuth at a time .

Are you saying you are simply substituting bismuth for lead? :eek:

[Destry L. Hoffard]

The only reliable source of smallbore non-toxic shells I'm aware of currently is Boss, but they're waterfowl loads so not the kind of powderpuff shells you boys seem to prefer.

[Stan Hillis]

We need to get Boss shotshells on board with making some lighter pressure loads. I have asked them a few times over the years to consider it. Heard about a year ago that something was in the works but nothing since. I hear great things about their shells.

They have been available from BOSS for at least a year and a half, now. Though they're not listed on their website BOSS sells copper plated bismuth loads that are loaded with fiber wads, as opposed to plastic shot cups. That helps lower the pressure to the 8000+ psi range. The only drawback to that, if it is indeed a drawback, is that the fiber wads open patterns somewhat as compared to the plastic shotcup higher pressure loads. My testing has shown that my HE Fox, and my LC Smith 3E gun, both choked mid to upper 40 thousandths, pattern the lower pressure duck loads in the 67 to 70 percent range.

I've got a bulk case (200) of both the lower and the higher pressure loads on hand and, along with my stash of bismuth shot for reloading, and NICE shot loads on hand, it should be enough to last me my lifetime (but I hope not :)).

[Pete Lester]

A significant issue at the present time that makes reloading 20ga bismuth difficult is the fact Remington SP20 wads are not currently available. If you go on the Hodgdon On-Line Reloading Data Center you will see that almost every 7/8 ounce or 1 ounce loadings of bismuth calls for that wad. There is no telling if we will ever see that wad in production again with the Remington bankruptcy and Vista buyout.

Personally I would not have a problem taking a 7/8 ounce lead recipe and substitute the same volume of bismuth shot. It should be close to 3/4 ounce and from what I have read substituting bismuth in the same volume NOT weight will yield a similar pressure. If you are concerned about that approach you can have the load tested.