Defining a Parker Long Range shotgun

[henderson Marriott]

This subject was partially approached by our membership in a thread of 2-24-2017 and some excellent points were made.
Page 23 of the 1929 Flying Geese catalog refers to the ""Parker Long Range Duck Gun".

The question that remains is what did Parker Bros actually do to the Long Range guns to allow them to handle the new Super-X 3in magnum shells?
These were developed by John Olin at Winchester-Western and first used by Charles Askins and Nash Buckingham with a couple of AH Fox HE 3 in Super Fox guns bored by Bert Becker about 1923-25.
The Super Fox guns were over-bored on heavy almost 10-ga- 12 gauge frames. The LC Smith Long Range Wildfowl models had reinforced lug "splinters".Most of the Fox-Smiths were full choked with barrels 30-32 inches in length.

Parker stated in 1929 " The purchaser of a Parker Long Range can rest assured
that he will receive a gun heavy enough and properly bored to shoot the heaviest loads for the killing of wildfowl at extreme ranges".

What did Parker Bros actually do to the barrels and actions of their Long Range shotguns? Technically, that is.

This Long Range shotgun issue has also been explored on the LC Smith site where some LC Smiths were 3 in chambered earlier in the 20s but not marked Long Range. Parker was undoubtedly influenced by Fox, Smith and Winchester to produce a Long Range Wildfowl gun to utilize the new progressive powder shells like the Super-X 3in 12 ga and to compete with the other U.S. shotgun manufacturers.
The 1930s Long Range Remington-Parkers were marked with 3 inch chamber stamping. just like the earlier Fox and LC Smith guns.
It also appears that Fox, Smith and Parker could mark chambers or not, with 2 3/4 in or 3in actual chambers. {I own a 3in Super Fox and a 3 in Smith Long Range Waterfowl , along with two Winchester Heavy Duck 3 in Model 12s }.

My 1930s Remington-Parker catalog on page 32 states under the paragraph heading : Parker Extra Long Range Duck Guns ;
"Ordinarily, Parker 12 gauge guns are chambered up to and including 2 3/4 inches. Those guns can be furnished with special long range choke
boring to give more effective results at extreme ranges. 12 gauge guns -with the exception of the 'Trojan' are also available with 3 inch chambers for use with maximum long range heavy loaded shells. So chambered, Parker guns are guaranteed to handle these shells properly."

So, special boring and chambering, and possibly 1 1/2 -3 frames, but no mention of a special magnum or heavy 12 gauge frame and possibly no
extra action reinforcing to handle repeated use with magnum level 3 inch shells. But Parker guarantees their guns to properly handle the magnum 3-inch pressures like in the Super-X loadings.

The question still remains: did either Parker Bros in 1924-29 or Remington -Parker later reinforce their guns in some other manner to
withstand repeated pounding from Magnum 3-inch 12 Ga shells?

[Rick Losey]

I believe they ran advertising pointing out they would build what you wanted
I’d be surprised if the new super-x lead to any design change

A lot of the long range stuff was hype. The LC was not a bigger frame or heavier barrels. I’ve had two, one had the reinforced lug, one did not

BTW. A Super Fox is not a 10 frame it was a model specific design

[Stan Hillis]

I can't answer your question, Henderson, but would like to address this statement:

The Super Fox guns were over-bored on 10-ga frames.

The Super Fox guns were overbored, strategically, and the chamber dimensions were altered. Much was done to produce the ultimate patterns with the, then new, 3" WW magnum loads. But, they were not built on a 10 ga. frame. There was never a 10 ga. Fox frame, action, or otherwise.

[Kevin McCormack]

So far as I understood it, Parkers chambered for 3" shells at the factory are easily distinguished as such vs. essentially larger framed (e.g. 2 and 3-framed guns) 12 ga. guns whose chambers were lengthened after market to accept 3" shells; if you lay as straightedge along the FULL LENGTH of an original factory 3" chambered gun, there is no "swamp" or taper to the barrels, they are straight along the full length of the barrel. Guns bored after market show a decided taper or "dip" to the parallel line from breech to muzzle. And as the case with Fox HE grade guns, most were marked "3 " but not all of them.

[henderson Marriott]

I can't answer your question, Henderson, but would like to address this statement:



The Super Fox guns were overbored, strategically, and the chamber dimensions were altered. Much was done to produce the ultimate patterns with the, then new, 3" WW magnum loads. But, they were not built on a 10 ga. frame. There was never a 10 ga. Fox frame, action, or otherwise.

While AH Fox never made a 10 ga frame, the appearance of a full sized Super
Fox with weight in many cases in excess of 9 pounds-led such writers of the 1920s as Askins and Buckingham to label the HE as approaching a 10 gauge frame size.

[edgarspencer]

Regardless who made the gun, it has been my experience that the longer the taper of the choke, the pattern remains tighter to a further distance.The Remington Wittemore choke began it's taper at nearly the midpoint of the barrel, with the tightest portion back from the muzzle about 1 1/2-2", and then straight. The belief was that the shot column was more stabilized over the longer constriction, and didn't begin to open until well downrange. I may be over simplifying what I have come to understand, for which I apologize.

[Rick Losey]

I think many of us would rate the 32” 3 frame 12 ga Parker as being as close to the Super Fox as Parker made

[Reggie Bishop]

Parker 1 frame 20/32" with 2 7/8 chambers, choked F/F is my "long range" gun. Oh and I also have an Elsie Crown 20/32", 3" chambers, F/F that probably would qualify as well. My two Fox 20/32" don't have the long chambers but they reach out there pretty far too! :cool:

[Frank Srebro]

While AH Fox never made a 10 ga frame, the appearance of a full sized Super
Fox with weight in many cases in excess of 9 pounds-led such writers of the 1920s as Askins and Buckingham to label the HE as approaching a 10 gauge frame size.

You often write glowingly and with tidbits of info on Super-Fox guns; perhaps you can provide the references by Askins and Buck to the frames and to that effect? What I've seen are period comments relating to the earliest barrel caliber, i.e., nominally .748/750", which approached 10-gauge bore sizing (actually about 11-gauge). Most Super-Fox frames were made from from 12-gauge frame forgings but machined with somewhat wider width across the breech balls and also at the back end of the frame where it abuts the head of the stock. I wrote "most" because some small number of Supers were "ordered light" and were made up on regular machined frames and running as light as ~ 8-1/4 pounds. For anyone interested and wanting to get into the lore of Supers, it would be well to refer to the index of Super-Fox articles in the DGJ that's on the paying members part of the Fox Collectors forum; plenty of good reading and tech info therein. frank

[Garry L Gordon]

Parker 1 frame 20/32" with 2 7/8 chambers, choked F/F is my "long range" gun. Oh and I also have an Elsie Crown 20/32", 3" chambers, F/F that probably would qualify as well. My two Fox 20/32" don't have the long chambers but they reach out there pretty far too! :cool:

Yikes! That is quite a selection of big 20s. :shock:

[Rick Losey]

You often write glowingly and with tidbits of info on Super-Fox guns; perhaps you can provide the references by Askins and Buck to the frames and to that effect? What I've seen are period comments relating to the earliest barrel caliber, i.e., nominally .748/750", which approached 10-gauge bore sizing (actually about 11-gauge). Most Super-Fox frames were made from from 12-gauge frame forgings but machined with somewhat wider width across the breech balls and also at the back end of the frame where it abuts the head of the stock. I wrote "most" because some small number of Supers were "ordered light" and were made up on regular machined frames and running as light as ~ 8-1/4 pounds. For anyone interested and wanting to get into the lore of Supers, it would be well to refer to the index of Super-Fox articles in the DGJ that's on the paying members part of the Fox Collectors forum; plenty of good reading and tech info therein. frank

what Frank modestly leaves out is that he authored several of those articles
and knows very well what he is talking about.

[Randy G Roberts]

I think many of us would rate the 32” 3 frame 12 ga Parker as being as close to the Super Fox as Parker made

Rick there will be one of these at Hausmanns, actually a 34" 12 on the 3 frame with Damascus barrels. 152 thou at the end of the chambers. Unstruck barrel weight of 6-8 with a total weight at 1 oz under 10 lbs.

[Dave Noreen]

These were developed by John Olin at Winchester-Western and first used by Charles Askins and Nash Buckingham with a couple of AH Fox HE 3 in Super Fox guns bored by Bert Becker about 1923-25.

It wasn't Winchester-Western, it was Western Cartridge Company! The Olins didn't buy the defunct Winchester Repeating Arms Company until the end of 1931. Askins and Sweeley were at the A.H. Fox factory working with Becker the summer of 1921. Buckingham's testing of an early Super-Fox and early Western progressive burning powder shells, written up in his article "Magnum Opus" in the September 1955, Outdoor Life, likely took place in the fall of 1921. The 2 3/4-inch 12- and 20-gauge Super-X shells were on the market for the 1922 season with the 16-gauge Super-X 1 1/8-ounce load added late that year. This magazine ad appeared in the October 1922, issue of National Sportsman and other sporting magazines.

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The term "Magnum" wasn't applied to the 12-gauge, 3-inch, Super-X 1 3/8-ounce load. The term "Magnum" was used to describe the 12-gauge, 3-inch, 1 5/8-ounce load which came out in 1935, along with the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck.

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[Reggie Bishop]

Rick there will be one of these at Hausmanns, actually a 34" 12 on the 3 frame with Damascus barrels. 152 thou at the end of the chambers. Unstruck barrel weight of 6-8 with a total weight at 1 oz under 10 lbs.

Is that one you will be shooting Randy? Or displaying?

[Randy G Roberts]

Is that one you will be shooting Randy? Or displaying?

It will be in the Peoples Choice Awards. I do shoot wobble trap with it, plenty of choke.

[Bill Murphy]

The guns that Parker Brothers or Remington advertised as "Long Range" guns with 3" chambers were not similar or identical to earlier 3" chamber 12 gauge guns. The thirties vintage 3" guns were lightly constructed #1 1/2 frame guns. Many, well, maybe not many, earlier guns chambered for 3" shells were built on many different frames, #2, #3, and a very few eight gauge rebarrels on #6 frames. However, they were built earlier than the Remington advertised "Long Range" guns on # 1 1/2 frames. As earlier posted, it is assumed that the Remington era "Long Range" guns were straight tapered from the breech, but an actual wall thickness measurement would confirm that assumption. I have yet to hear from someone who has made and posted those measurements.

[henderson Marriott]

As well built and as strong as the Super Fox HE grade and the later Fox Sterlingworth 3- inch guns were, they seem to have served best with goose and duck hunters.
Unless ordered with lesser weight barrels, and less overall weight-they were not ideal for
hunting wild turkey. ( From direct experience in the East and Western United States).

In this instance, the LC Smith Long Range , Winchester Heavy Duck M-12, and Parker Long Range guns may well have held a weight advantage. However, a number of Super Fox actual users, then and now- attribute longer range of the HE grade, gun to gun.
It is also a factor that the Winchester M-12 3-inch Heavy Duck guns held a price advantage and continued to be produced. Unless these long range shotguns are compared with relative weights, ranges, pattern densities and modern available shot shells- it becomes a matter of opinion.

However, in hunting with all of them except the Parker Long Range gun, I have established some comparative objective performance standards concerning the guns that I own.
Hence, the original question which has been partially answered.
{The opinions of the author are his own, and are based on his own hunting experiences utilizing various shot shells from manufacturers in his own shotguns.}

Hopefully, this has been of some value to the membership.

[Bill Murphy]

Colonel, if carrying weight is a consideration, the 7 1/2 pound Model 21 Winchester 3" gun and the 7 1/2 pound Remington era 3" chamber, "Long Range" Parker win hands down. The 3" Model 21 used barrels that are identical to 2 3/4" barrels and the gun weight is also the same. We will wait to see if someone will measure the wall thickness of a Remington era 3" Parker and compare those measurements to a common 1 1/2 frame 12 gauge of the same era. The Remington era 3" Parkers I have handled were very light and seemed identical to any 1 1/2 frame 12 gauge. I have never seen or heard of a 3" Parker made in the late era with a #2 or #3 frame, although they may exist.

[henderson Marriott]

Bill:

Weight is a consideration, but I will plead guilty to a certain bias toward Parker Brothers, AH Fox, and LC Smith double guns.
I have 1886 Winchesters and pre-war Model 70s. But, I probably will never own a Model 21.
But you have a point; those who hunt grouse and pintails as speedy birds have never seen an Eastern old gobbler come out of a full strut to beat American Pharoah in 50 yards.

[Dave Noreen]

Does anyone actually have an unmolested Parker Bros. 12-gauge, gun chambered for 3-inch shells, from the period 1923 to 1933 that letters as such?

[CraigThompson]

Does anyone actually have an unmolested Parker Bros. 12-gauge, gun chambered for 3-inch shells, from the period 1923 to 1933 that letters as such?

Back in 63 before I shipped out I ha........ wait that was a bad dream sorry :whistle::rotf:

[Dean Romig]

Here’s one I immediately fell in love with when Tony advertised it on his website in 2002.
I was trying to round up some of the money when it disappeared…
Good thing though - I would probably have found myself single a lot sooner than now…


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[Frank Srebro]

Does anyone actually have an unmolested Parker Bros. 12-gauge, gun chambered for 3-inch shells, from the period 1923 to 1933 that letters as such?

Dave, not quite what you asked about but I recently found a 32" 12-gauge VHE, 194000's range shown as made in mid 1921, that has 2-7/8" chambers, bores at .749/750" and 6+" long full tapered chokes with constrictions at 48 and 50 points. That's with my Super-Fox chamber length gauge and Stan Baker bore mike, so the measurements are accurate. I know that 1921 date is a bit pre-intro of progressive powder factory shells but we know a lot of 3-inch experimentation was going on in that period by Askins, Sweeley, E I DuPont and others, and was being written up in the sporting mags. And in turn that influenced some people to Jump in and order guns for handloaded 3-inchers and anticipated factory machine made shells. It's an interesting gun with barrels that look to be unmolested, and I'll be doing more research on it along with patterning etc. Also looks to have been a ducker, no surprise there. :)

[Dean Romig]

Wow Frank, those are TIGHT chokes! Congratulations on finding that awesome "fowler."




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[henderson Marriott]

Frank,
Nice VHE Parker. Appears that it might resemble the very nice 1924 VHE
waterfowl shotgun that graces the front cover of the Winter 2021 issue of Parker Pages.
You have managed to locate some excellent sources
for both Parkers and the occasional Fox.

[Bill Murphy]

The gun Frank describes probably predates the "Long Range" 3" gun seen in Parker literature. By the way, a letter or other documentation is not necessary to identify an original "Long Range" 3" gun. They were stamped on the left side barrel lug with the 3" marking along with the grade of the gun. To answer Dave's question, Albright's Gun Shop in Easton, Maryland sold a field used VHE 3" marked 30" #1 1/2 frame gun several years ago. It had/has typical Remington markings on the left side of the barrel lug. I could not get past the low condition and short stock so it went on to be sold to Mark Conrad. I believe Mark improved the condition a bit and may have sold it. I have not seen the gun for more than 15 years. It was a beavertail, single trigger gun.

[Dave Noreen]

They were stamped on the left side barrel lug with the 3" marking along with the grade of the gun. To answer Dave's question, Albright's Gun Shop in Easton, Maryland sold a field used VHE 3" marked 30" #1 1/2 frame gun several years ago.

Those are all late Remington guns in the 241xxx range. VHE on 1 1/2 frame --

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CHE on a 2 frame --

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CHE on a 1 1/2 frame --

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I was asking about guns from Parker Bros. well before those late 3" marked Remington guns.

[Frank Srebro]

Frank,
Nice VHE Parker. Appears that it might resemble the very nice 1924 VHE
waterfowl shotgun that graces the front cover of the Winter 2021 issue of Parker Pages.
You have managed to locate some excellent sources
for both Parkers and the occasional Fox.

Ridge, actually it's the other way around. I've been a long time Fox nut (mainly) and thus it's been Foxes and the occasional Parker and Lefever, both of which I'd come to appreciate and look for good ones. The VHE 32" on the front cover of the Winter '21 PP edition is in very high condition and probably unfired since leaving Meriden. The VHE 32" referred to here is in lesser condition, having been used over the water.

Those following this thread may be interested in an upcoming article in the DGJ that elaborates on the 1919-22 experimentation with 12-gauge/3-inch progressive shells and "borings" for the Special Long Range waterfowl guns, in particular the Super-Fox and the somewhat underappreciated LC Smith Long Range. It’s likely to be in the Summer edition.

[Dave Noreen]

Thanks Frank. It would be great if those Remington 3-inch guns I pictured above could pass through your hands at least long enough for some of your good measurements. Actually, when those Remington guns were made, we were into the age of the 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum 1 5/8-ounce loads

[Frank Srebro]

Thanks Frank. It would be great if those Remington 3-inch guns I pictured above could pass through your hands at least long enough for some of your good measurements.

Dave, I'd love to do that with my Super-Fox chamber length and taper gauges and with the bore mike. If anyone has one to bring to the Northeast SxS please let me know so I bring my tools. Truck is starting to get pretty full.

[charlie cleveland]

nothing stirs my blood like talking about these 3 inch guns be it 12 ga or 16 ga or 20 ga...they are special too me....charlie

[CraigThompson]

Here’s one I immediately fell in love with when Tony advertised it on his website in 2002.
I was trying to round up some of the money when it disappeared…
Good thing though - I would probably have found myself single a lot sooner than now…


.

I didn’t see it in the description with the picture , but did you find out if it had 2 7/8” chambers ?

[CraigThompson]

Kinda along these lines I have a DH 16 gauge 32” on a 2 frame I purchased from someone here less than a year ago . It’s a 1916 gun that’s PG DT splinter FE drop at heel is 2 1/2 and lop to the SB is 14 1/2” with a weight of 8 pounds even . Both barrels are full plus . To me the 2 frame is unusual as well as the letter verified 2 7/8” chambers . This past tower shoot season I was fairly regularly making shots on pheasants I normally wouldn’t try with my 12 pigeon gun .

[charlie cleveland]

this gun must of used the 3 inch 16 ga shell...bill murphy has a big 16 ga gun also...I like hearing about these heavy weight guns....charlie

[Dean Romig]

I didn’t see it in the description with the picture , but did you find out if it had 2 7/8” chambers ?


Back then I was so new to Parkerology that I never even considered asking. I never asked and if it was in the rest of the description I wouldn’t have thought to remember.





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[henderson Marriott]

Does anyone actually have an unmolested Parker Bros. 12-gauge, gun chambered for 3-inch shells, from the period 1923 to 1933 that letters as such?

Dave has gotten me to reflecting:

I have owned 3 and still hunt with a Long Range 3 inch LC Smith, a Super Fox 3 inch gun of which I have owned two, and retain two M-12 3 in Heavy Duck guns.
I have not actually seen or handled a Parker 3 inch gun. It does beg the question:how many Parker 3 inch or 2 7/8 inch guns were actually made
and sold?

Other manufacturers by the 1930s were surely taking up market share: Winchester, Fox (Sterlingworth), possibly Ithaca, and some British doubles.
Fox later used up the last of the HE grade barrels and frames to market
a waterfowl heavy Sterlingworth. The price of that rarer late Fox was close to the original Super Fox HE price. Not many were offered or sold.
The Depression and new game law restrictions on geese and duck limits played a part in supply and demand. Many hunters bought used Model 12 pump shotguns in the 30s because they could not afford even a used double gun.

An Abercrombie and Fitch NYC 1933 used gun catalog, personally owned- offered a Parker A-1 Special for a bit over $200.

[Rick Losey]

possibly Ithaca,



I have no doubt an NID in 3" 12ga would handle the heavy load well

but Ithaca's specific entry to the long range waterfowl arms race was the 2 7/8 Super 10 - not to be confused with the later 3 1/2 magnum 10 boat anchor

The Ithaca Super is a wonderfully efficient hunting tool

[Garry L Gordon]

I have no doubt an NID in 3" 12ga would handle the heavy load well

but Ithaca's specific entry to the long range waterfowl arms race was the 2 7/8 Super 10 - not to be confused with the later 3 1/2 magnum 10 boat anchor

The Ithaca Super is a wonderfully efficient hunting tool

I like my 3 1/2” Ithaca Boat Anchor, but I do have to buy longer sleeved shirts after using it. It’s a turkey killing machine.

[Dave Noreen]

Do we have a number on the L.C. Smith Wildfowl/Long Range guns? A quick look in Houchins this morning while my oats were cooking, I didn't see one.

The count of their records Ithaca Gun Co. did back in the 1960s showed 87 12-gauges built on the NID magnum-frame. The Magnum-12 wasn't listed in the Ithaca Gun Co. catalogs until 1937, but we see 12-gauge guns throughout the 500000 serial number range. However, some of these 12-gauges built on the NID magnum-frame that have surfaced have 2 3/4" chambers.

A.H. Fox Gun Co./Savage Arms Corp. built about 950 12-gauge HE-Grade Super-Fox guns but how many started life chambered for 3-inch shells is not known.

Some other manufacturers tried their hand in the field as well. Davis Warner Arms Corp. offered one of their N.R. Davis doubles which they called Hy-Power Grade --

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The Hy-Power Grade doesn't appear in the Crescent - Davis Arms Corp. paper from the 1930s.

[Craig Larter]

2704 Long Range and Wild Fowl LCS were made.

[Daryl Corona]

Just my 2cents......

To me a lot of the long range, super dooper duck crushers were merely marketing hype. Not that they didn't work. They worked well with the components available at the time. But they were developed in the era of softer shot using fiber wads and the new smokeless powder which was really in it's infancy. Todays offerings make these old duck crushers even more effective. But they also work very well in these old guns that were simply 30" or 32" field guns with choke constrictions starting around .030 and up. I've shot a boatload of ducks and geese with 2 3/4" loads and most of those with a 20ga. My 30" Fox SW is a great duck gun. Ask me how I know.

So to answer the OP's query; The definition of a long range shotgun to me is any gun you can reliably and cleanly kill birds within 40yds. The majority of hunters have no business shooting at birds 50,60yds or further.

[Rick Losey]

Do we have a number on the L.C. Smith Wildfowl/Long Range guns? A quick look in Houchins this morning while my oats were cooking, I didn't see one.


There was a real nice half page chart in an LC collector association newsletter many years ago- I believe it was put together by Jim Stubbendieck - it breaks the total down by grade and options. I’ll see if I can find my copy Dave, It would be good addition to your ever growing data collection


Just my 2cents......

To me a lot of the long range, super dooper duck crushers were merely marketing hype


Exactly Daryl, my earlier point

Nash Buckingham gave the Super Fox it’s reputation, but if we were honest, few if any of us will ever shoot like him no matter what’s at our shoulder

[todd allen]

To Daryl's point. I live in what was once a pretty reliable crow flyway, in a small agricultural community in So. NV.
Me and my hunting bud were mad scientists, when it came to shotgun ballistics. Being avid hunters, and competitive pigeon shooters, we more than demanded proof. We tested everything, both on paper, and on actual birds.
One day we decided to test some loads on long range migrating crows. With my friend Chuck checking crow altitudes with a laser rangefinder, I would make, or attempt to make stupid-high pass shots at the passing crows. Guns used: An Ithaca Mag 10, and a Perazzi Pigeon gun with 35k and 40k chokes. We couldn't afford to have the NASA Space Agency confirm our findings, but the 12 ga was killing crows out to what we concluded was the lethal limits of the shot size, independent of the added payload of the Mag 10.
The max of the no fly zone was about 90 yards straight up.

[Garry L Gordon]

Long range guns are wasted on me. I'm a very poor long range shooter. I don't take long shots except for the occasional 45 yard dove (and usually miss). I'm not good at estimating the distance of birds, and generally overestimate them. My shooting averages are good because of this, but I know I'm a fair shot at best. What counts for me is not wounding birds, and taking shorter, makable shots is my method.

Having said this, I still like the idea of those big guns, have a few, and bring them out on occasion to stretch my arms out some. Still, I keep hoping to find a nice, big gun, like the HE or one of those 3 frame Parker 12s. I admire and respect a good long shot, one who practices and can do it with regularity. It's just not me.

I'm really enjoying this thread and have learned much from it. Thanks to the posters.

[Stan Hillis]

I absolutely love using big, heavy long range double guns, for ducks, doves and the occasional turkey hunt. My 12/32" HE Fox, factory chambered in 3" length, weighs in at 9/8, as I recall, unloaded. My 12/32" 3E Smith is also factory chambered at 3" length, but not nearly as heavy as the Fox. I much prefer the big Fox with heavy loads for waterfowl. I also have a 3" chambered A grade Fox, 12/32", with a straight grip. I don't like it nearly as well as the HE with heavy loads.

I'm not a muscled up strongman, but I could never understand the obsession with lightweight shotguns for hunting. I have never had any problem chasing down a speeding woodie, or dove, with the big HE. I really enjoy trying to kill doubles (2 for 2) on ducks. With the heavy bismuth loads I use I just don't like the way a lighter weight double gun "jumps around" in my hands from the recoil of the first shot. Weight attenuates that a great deal, as does a pistol grip for me, which allows me to get on that second bird much faster and more accurately.

JMO, YMMV

[Dean Romig]

Stan, a big, heavy, long barreled gun if fine for those birds you mention because you’re generally sitting or standing in one place and you don’t have to lug it uphill and down dale, across wooded and tangled slopes, through blackberry tangles and over blowdowns. Give me a 6 or 7 lb. Gun any say for this kind of work. I have a 9+ lb 10 gauge 3-frame D Lifter for turkeys if I want to use it but I’ll normally take my 12 ga. 2-frame 30” DH because it’s 7/12 lbs. I ofter sneak back into these covers before daylight and that’s over a mile in sometimes. That’s why I like a lighter gun.





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[Garry L Gordon]

My Ithaca 10 Mag Is over 11 pounds and is a workout on a Fall turkey hunt. Most shots are aimed, but I did take a 57 step flying young turkey on the wing with it one Fall. Once you get it swinging, it keeps going, I will say that!

The world is a better place when there are some differences. This is a good example.

[henderson Marriott]

To respond to earlier questions, from the AH Fox factory records: 624 HE Grade
Super Foxes had 2 3/4 chambers, while 314 had 3 inch chambers, 8 were not recorded for a total of 946.*

A review of the pages within The Parker Story revealed precious little on the Long Range Parker,
and nothing noted in the index pages. My eyes are aging, so feel free to correct my limited research.
Lt Col Brophy's LC Smith volume covers the Long Range Waterfowl Hunter Arms
guns, but there is no mention of the reinforced lug splinter, as it has been termed
and is found on my 3 inch Long Range Smith.

This has been an interesting short study, and my appreciation is extended to all of the PGCA members
who have generously contributed to our knowledge of Long Range Parkers and other fine long range American double guns.
(I am still in search of a Long Range 3 inch
Parker and hopefully will discover one hidden in a small gun shop or left in a duck blind.)

{Mary reminds me that I was a PGCA member, N0. 905 in 2001-but disappeared for a good while after September of that year.
She graciously allowed me to retain that member number after returning to the fold relatively unscathed.}


* From Craig Larter's " The Super Fox 12-gauge Shotgun"; Winter 2011 Issue;
Double Gun Journal

[Stan Hillis]

Perhaps I'm too narrow-minded about gun weights. But, I don't think so. I can appreciate a lighter quail and woodcock gun, and have several of my own.

Just always seemed odd to me that so many men obsess over one or two pounds extra weight on a turkey gun, that they may carry a mile or more slung over their shoulder, but never complain about having to tote a 24 pound bird that mile back out.

Not all duck hunts are easy peasy walks in the park, either. I'm no stranger to hell-hole woodie ponds that require walking in through briar patches, devil vines, blowdowns and sharp beaver cut stobs that don't slow down punching through a set of waders.

Variety is indeed the spice of life, and I'm very glad so many people prefer lighter guns. They certainly have their place.

[Bill Murphy]

A good, and cheap, alternative to a Long Range Parker is a ten gauge with twelve gauge chamber inserts. Most wads seem to seal just fine in a .775 bore. An .800 bore, maybe not so much.

[Garry L Gordon]

Perhaps I'm too narrow-minded about gun weights. But, I don't think so. I can appreciate a lighter quail and woodcock gun, and have several of my own.

Just always seemed odd to me that so many men obsess over one or two pounds extra weight on a turkey gun, that they may carry a mile or more slung over their shoulder, but never complain about having to tote a 24 pound bird that mile back out.

Not all duck hunts are easy peasy walks in the park, either. I'm no stranger to hell-hole woodie ponds that require walking in through briar patches, devil vines, blowdowns and sharp beaver cut stobs that don't slow down punching through a set of waders.

Variety is indeed the spice of life, and I'm very glad so many people prefer lighter guns. They certainly have their place.

Gosh, Stan, I don't think you're are narrow-minded at all. You obviously have great experience and have developed a good knowledge of your guns and yourself. And, by what I can tell from your posts, you're an excellent shot.

I like all kinds of double guns, and have a variety of weights, barrel lengths, etc. I tell myself I "need" all these variations for particular settings. I've got some 8-11 lbs. duck guns, a "heavy," long barreled gun for pheasants, a short barreled light weight arsenal for woodcock, and a wider variety of guns for quail (which I hunt the most). I choose the quail guns dependent upon the cover I'll be hunting, and my go-to quail gun is a 30 inch 20 gauge Parker that weighs 6 lbs. 10 oz (not exactly light). Most of my shooting is at close rising birds, often in thick cover. I like the maneuverability of a lighter gun then. At least for me, I get on birds quicker with that type gun. I can see the trade off when I need to take longer crossing shots, as I often end up stopping my swing. That's as much my poor shooting as it is the gun weight, but I know I shoot a more forward-weighted gun better on longer crossing shots. I just don't take many of those over the course of a season. Actually, I don't shoot that much at all any more, limiting my take to just a brace of quail on most days...if I'm lucky enough to find birds.

I've been think about getting a 3 weight Parker 12...and a .410 Parker. I'm sure I'd likely shoot the former better than the latter, mostly because of the potential dynamics of those guns. I'll never be a good shot at dove with a .410 like you obviously are(:bowdown:), but I only go a few days a year at the season's opening...then all the birds head South and I'm left to those "other" birds. Thank goodness. Dove are a humbling experience for this mediocre shot.:crying:

[todd allen]

My Ithaca 10 Mag Is over 11 pounds and is a workout on a Fall turkey hunt. Most shots are aimed, but I did take a 57 step flying young turkey on the wing with it one Fall. Once you get it swinging, it keeps going, I will say that!

The world is a better place when there are some differences. This is a good example.
It's hard to stop a train! ;-)
Reminds me of a story.
I was at a pigeon shoot one weekend, in a little village in Old Mexico called Sacramento, as I recall. I think they called it El Champion Shoot, or sum sutch.
This particular shoot was a SxS shoot.
One of my crazier friends from back then, (I'll call him John) was shooting an 8 gauge SxS, and, after some persuasion, lent me the gun and 10 shells to shoot a 5 bird practice.
I don't remember much about the first 4, but the last bird sprang outta box 9 and sped away towards the right side of the back fence, like he needed to be somewhere!
The gun was slow to start, but I gave it a shove and it lumbered smoothly across the field, and past the fleeting bird. The right barrel discharged at almost the right time, and caused a large swarm of shot to cut feathers on his right side.
The bird, was infuriated, and swung a u-turn right at the fence, and commenced to charge the gun at high speed!
I left skid marks on the ground beneath me, as I slammed on the brakes, got her stopped, then muscled those huge barrels back in the new direction the bird had taken.
I managed to put the bead on the lips of the charging bird, and hit the 2nd trigger at just the right moment this time.
The devastation was epic! Looked like a pillow fight at mid-field! Imagine a full choked 8 gauge centering a pigeon at 20 or so yards.
I handed the big gun back to my friend and thanked him for the ride, while athletic young Mexicans cleaned up the mess.
The big gun kinda surprised me at how well it handled, in spite it's large frame, and long barrels. 36", as I recall. I think I was something like 3x5 with the big gun, on the practice, with the 8 ga. Yes, big guns are fun!
BTW, I did manage a 2nd place with a 32" Runge/Delgreco A-1 Special trap gun that I brought for the event, so it was a pretty good day for me.
The Parker Gun felt like a cue stick after shooting the 8 gauge, and earned me a few Pesos that day.

[Frank Srebro]

** Posted and later deleted until I have more time to check something interesting.

[todd allen]

** Posted and later deleted until I have more time to check something interesting.

Were you in that part of Mexico about 20 years ago?

[Frank Srebro]

Were you in that part of Mexico about 20 years ago?

No, only in Cancun and Tijuana.

[Daryl Corona]

No, only in Cancun and Tijuana.

I'll bet there are some stories linked with those two locations.:eek::shock:

[todd allen]

I know some guys who used to shoot doves down in Hermosillo and yes, there were some stories.
BTW, sorry about the wordy post above. I was home alone yesterday, and didn't know whether to write a country western ballad, or make a post on the Parker site.

[Daryl Corona]

Same here Todd. Somedays I don't know whether to solve world hunger, work for peace or go shooting. Can't decide between 20 or 28ga. Oh well, let's take them both.

[todd allen]

Thanks Daryl. Maybe some day soon after some favorable climate change we can get together and work towards whirled peas.

[CraigThompson]

Same here Todd. Somedays I don't know whether to solve world hunger, work for piece or go shooting. Can't decide between 20 or 28ga. Oh well, let's take them both.

I got a text from a guy that runs a ring in PA a couple days ago for a friday saturday shoot . Sadly I'll be out of the country (I hope) . But in the two days shoot there will be a 20 bird 28 gauge race . I'm kinda new to the pigeon game but I'd never heard of lesser gauge races .

I would however like to try my DH 8 in the pigeon ring with my light 1 1/2 ounce load in the right barrel and the heavier 1 3/4 ounce load in the left barrel .

[Daryl Corona]

Thanks Daryl. Maybe some day soon after some favorable climate change we can get together and work towards whirled peas.

Probably not in this lifetime Todd. Let's just go shooting.

[Daryl Corona]

I got a text from a guy that runs a ring in PA a couple days ago for a friday saturday shoot . Sadly I'll be out of the country (I hope) . But in the two days shoot there will be a 20 bird 28 gauge race . I'm kinda new to the pigeon game but I'd never heard of lesser gauge races .

I would however like to try my DH 8 in the pigeon ring with my light 1 1/2 ounce load in the right barrel and the heavier 1 3/4 ounce load in the left barrel .

Our friend Honest John used to have a 28ga event. I've got the perfect gun for that.:)

[CraigThompson]

Our friend Honest John used to have a 28ga event. I've got the perfect gun for that.:)

Yes sir that little Perazzi would work very well for that I do believe !

If I were going to be here for the event I would be calling a friend in Fredricksburg thats connected with the Fausti chicks and see about getting a Fausti SxS 28 that was 32" or possibly 30" .

[Daryl Corona]

I was thinking of my 30" VHE 28.:)

[charlie cleveland]

my definition of a long range gun...abig bore with long barrels lots of choke and will drop the quarry be it wild foul or beast at least out to 60 yards every shot ...charlie

[Stan Hillis]

I agree with you, Charlie. Many people today do not know what true long range wing shooting is all about. They assume that shotguns are necessarily short range tools. They're not.

When you get the chance to watch a truly long range shotgunner at work it is an amazing sight to see. However, really long range shotguns are very specialized tools, and require a unique skill set.

[Frank Srebro]

So far as I understood it, Parkers chambered for 3" shells at the factory are easily distinguished as such vs. essentially larger framed (e.g. 2 and 3-framed guns) 12 ga. guns whose chambers were lengthened after market to accept 3" shells; if you lay as straightedge along the FULL LENGTH of an original factory 3" chambered gun, there is no "swamp" or taper to the barrels, they are straight along the full length of the barrel. Guns bored after market show a decided taper or "dip" to the parallel line from breech to muzzle. And as the case with Fox HE grade guns, most were marked "3 " but not all of them.

I've recently become interested in these late Parker 1-1/2 frame/3-inch Long Range guns. I highlighted part of Kevin's post and question whether they really were straight along the full length of the barrel from breech to muzzle? The width across the 1-1/2 frame barrel breech is about 2.290" and width across the muzzles (32” barrel) is about 1.610". And if perfectly straight and without a transition “swamp” for at least a few inches forward of the breeches that might make for a decided heft and odd look to the back end of the barrels.

Or is it, that the barrels are straight tapered without a swamp from a point beginning some inches (10-12?) ahead of the breech and out to the muzzle?

Can someone with an original late 12 ga/3-inch gun on a 1-1/2 frame please check this for us?

[henderson Marriott]

Frank:
One of our seldom seen PGCA members has a later Remington-Parker VHE 12 GA chambered and marked "3-in" chambers. At one time he had considered selling it, but now is off the radar screen. If he can be contacted again, I will ask about his frame size and possibly get him to do some measurement checks for all interested

As you may know, I am the present owner of the Parker Bros. VHE 2 7/8 inch gun that belonged to you then Reggie, through Mike K. -I believe. It is the same gun that graced the Winter 2021 issue of Parker Pages so well described by yourself.
Under the heading "all things come to those who have patience", I have recently manged to obtain an Ithaca Flues straight-stocked 12 that has 3 in chambers. Also recent and in the running is a 1924 LC Smith Long Range Field grade, with straight stock, much case color and original barrel finish remaining-with wood checked. So with the Super and another Long Range Smith, I have managed to corner a representative collection of American duck, goose and turkey artillery pieces. Excellent "bird guns".

Another tangent but related subject that I am doing research on is modern lead shot shell performance, along with non-toxic shell attributes, usage within these shotguns at the century mark. While the actions of these double guns may handle some reduced velocity/ pressures of modern offerings, the aged walnut stock material certainly was not made to handle the higher velocity loads of some of today's tungsten or bismuth loads.
Would that the DGJ was present to publish articles keeping our double gun aficionados
constantly current on the realties of modern shot shell velocities.

The era of John Olin's 1920's Super-X shells has passed. With shot column technology, non-toxic heavy shot, and increased performance-based commercial research:
We truly have 3-inch guns from another era, that can CHAMBER 3-inch shot shells, but
caveat emptor as to which ones are safe in our guns. And is it realistic to safely expect the same levels of performance-or greater- in 100-year old shotguns?
The Model 12 Heavy Duck guns may see more use than ever expected-as velocities approach 1500 fps in modern loaded shells. ( We do have RST and Boss, however.)

[Bill Murphy]

I think the 3" Remington era Parker mentioned by Lt Col Marriot is one I saw when it first surfaced in the retail world at least a couple of owners ago and I declined to purchase because of its poor condition and its light weight and 1 1/2 frame. Any comments about swamped barrels or not swamped barrels should be put to rest by measurements of outside diameter, breech to muzzle in 2 5/8" and marked 3" barrels. I seriously doubt that a 1 1/2 frame Remington era 3" marked gun has any different barrel taper than does a normal 2 5/8" 1 1/2 frame gun of the same era. I would like to see a 3" marked Remington gun placed on an accurate scale. I think Frank would like to see the same.

[Dave Noreen]

I see WLM has listed an over eight pound 1923 vintage VHE, 2-frame, 32-inch 12-gauge on GI. No mention of chamber length in the text.

[allen newell]

My definition of long range is shooting my recently acquired 410 Skeeter over trap! lol

[Christopher Cefalu]

Reading this tread on "long range" doubles has had me captivated and it will probably end up costing me more $$ because I'll start looking to acquire one. That said I'm fairly new to the double gun world, I started acquiring doubles in 2020 which has lead to 3 L.C. Smiths 12ga Ideal, 16ga Ideal, 20ga Specialty, Fox 16ga sterling, and 3 parkers 12's 2 DHE's and a VHE. I'm no stranger to the shotgun world I shoot trap, skeet and sporting clays at competitively for 20 plus and I'm a avid bird hunter. My 12ga VHE Remington era is a 30 in barrel chocked M/F is murder on ducks at 40 yards plus with Bismuth loads and performs like a champ on ZZ targets with 1oz 71/2 loads. I would definitely consider that gun a "long range" double. Now I have to distract the CEO (wife) long enough so I can fine one of these "long range" doubles you all are referring to I'll blame this group if I get caught :rotf:

[Dean Romig]

Yup - we have big shoulders, we can take it!





.

[Bill Murphy]

Allen, tell us about your Skeet .410. How is it choked? I have never measured the chokes on my 30" .410 Skeeter, but I assume they are full in both barrels.

[CraigThompson]

Yup - we have big shoulders, we can take it!

.

I have news for you ! After years of shooting not light shotgun loads and being pounded at the bench by heavy rifles my shoulders are starting to be an issue . So while I agree “we can take it” , one reaches a point where it isn’t as comfortable as it once was .

[Craig Larter]

I own what I consider two long range Parkers, but made before the advent of the 3" Super-X. BHE 134923 12/32 #2 frame .041/.039 chokes .731/.730 factory documented 2 7/8" chambers 8lbs 5oz.
CHE 12/32 #3 frame .037/.040 chokes .740/.742 (patterned for #2 shot per the letter) 2 7/8" chambers factory documented, 8lbs 4oz.

[Drew Hause]

Late to the party again.

Dave asked about the Smith LRWF guns.
"Long Range Hyperbole" was published in the DGJ by Drew Hause, James Stubbendieck, and J. David Williamson, Volume 24, Issue 1, Page 137, 2013.

I have Dr. Jim's "Production Records" and could answer specific questions. There was a total of 2,704 LRWF guns manufactured, but a few did not have 3" chambers.

BTW: the Parker "Long Range" appeared in the 1894-1895 Montgomery Ward catalog

https://photos.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/LRWF/i-Z7hhXJ8/0/058507e2/M/Parker%201894-95%20Ward%20catalog%20%282%29-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/LRWF/i-Z7hhXJ8/A)

May 1922 Hunter - Trader - Trapper

https://photos.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/LRWF/i-xZMWRZ3/0/a78dd007/M/Parker%20HTT%205-1922-M.png (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/LRWF/i-xZMWRZ3/A)

[Rick Losey]

but that ad hypes the long range killing power. not specifically a model called the "Long Range".

in fact it shows a Trojan - so a Parker Trojan is a long range - as is any tightly choked Parker

[CraigThompson]

but that ad hypes the long range killing power. not specifically a model called the "Long Range".

in fact it shows a Trojan - so a Parker Trojan is a long range - as is any tightly choked Parker

I’ve not paid a whole lot of attention to the chokes in most of my guns other than points of constriction. But the redone AH Fox HE I had for a month or so last summer had to be the tightest and longest choked taperwise gun I’ve ever possessed .

[John Davis]

I have a BHE 12 gauge, #3 frame, 34 inch barrels, 3 inch chambers, that weighs more than I do. Choked extra full/extra full. It was originally owned by a big time duck hunter from Peoria (not Fred Kimble). I assume it was intended as a long range shooter. At least it has proven to be a long range shooter.

[henderson Marriott]

That is an interesting BHE Parker. Early accounts at Beaver Dam had Nash Buckingham
shooting ducks in the teens with a 34 inch Parker.

A Jan-Feb 1975 article in HANDLOADER magazine entitled "Super Goose Loads"
features lab-tested copper-plated 12 Ga 1 1/4 oz No. 2 and 1 3/8 oz BB loads that give 70 percent patterns at 70 yards. The author was alternating 2 3/4 in and 3 in 12 GA loading tests
but had to adjust back a bit due to pressures. Most were "Mini-Magnum 2 3/4 loaded shells". I can imagine. At any rate, that level
of performance comes at too high a price for most of our double guns. RST and Boss, or earlier reasonable pressure factory shells and/or custom hand crafted shot shells are preferred. It is, after all, what we chamber in our shotguns that may make them safely
worthy of the title "long range".

[Bill Murphy]

Colonel, can you post a scan of the Handloader article that describes the 70% pattern at 70 yards? Thanks.

[Drew Hause]

Bro. Williamson didn't do quite that good

https://photos.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/LRWF/i-8Qj3WGL/0/bd9e80c8/XL/Screenshot%202020-12-18%2013.43.39-XL.png (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/LC-Smith/LRWF/i-8Qj3WGL/A)

Capt. Charles Askins and E.M. Sweeley “Ballistics of the Shotgun” series in Outdoor Life
“Late Developments in Guns and Ammunition” DuPont’s powder and Western’s Super-X loads
https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1922-04_49_4/page/234/mode/2up

November 1923, “An American Super 12” The Super Fox boring & patterns
https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1923-11_52_5/page/356/mode/2up

[henderson Marriott]

Bill:

This 1975 Handloader article by Tom Roster is 7 pages long and is well-researched, to include submission of the 1 1/2 BB load to Du Pont's ballistic lab. "Dupont reported the load traveling at an acceptable average velocity of 1230 fps with an EV of 49 fps, but generating chamber pressure averaging 14,600 lup with an unusual EV of 3800 lup." "Unfortunately, it became apparent that while delivering marvelous dense patterns, the load was producing dangerous chamber pressures."

After changing his loading technique and coppered BBs to 1 3/8 oz: "Performance with the 1 3/8 BB load was also better than the 1 1/2 oz load in factory barrels at 80 yards, averaging 42 BBs for a remarkable 58 percent, while remaining essentially the same as the 1 1/2 oz load at 40,60 and 70 yards." " Dupont reported the 1 3/8 oz BB load as moving at an average velocity of 1177 with an EV of 70 fps. The load generated safe average chamber pressure of 8900 l u p with an acceptable EV of 2000 lup. Du Pont also confirmed that the powder charge could be increased by 1-1.5 grs which should produce a velocity of slightly over 1200 fps with a safe chamber pressure."

Roster and his hunting companions also did post-hunt autopsies on Canadensis Moffitti,
Lesser and Greater, along with snow geese-showing the BB-load effectiveness.

The article is exhaustive in its research, and coupled with the Dupont Ballistic Lab confirmation of velocities and pressures, does have value in determining acceptable load
results . The key, as in any valid scientific research, is that it can be repeated by another
individual hunter/reloader , ballistics researcher or ballistics lab- as the two labs in this case.

The article does support 78 % (87 pellets) at 60 yards ; 71 pellets (63%) at 70 yards
with Alcan's Ballistic Lab reporting the load moving at 1225 fps with a chamber pressure of 8900 lup.
(The article also supports what many hunters/reloaders know: heavier shot like # 4, 2, and BBs hold velocity better at longer ranges.)

A full scan of 7 pages from this Handloader Magazine article really would tax my ancient computer to the limit, but the article is available from Handloader/Rifle -Wolfe Publications, Prescott, AZ.
Or-I can bring it to the Southern SXS next year- and/or may burn copies for the serious shot shell reloader.

I tend to be past taking risks with my 3 in or 2 3/4 in Parker, LC Smith or Fox guns; there is the safety factor, my eyesight, and the fact that
they are not making any more of the original guns! RM