Flues 20 gauge thoughts

[Dan Steingraber]

Anyone have any thoughts on this gun for sale on the Monty Whitley site. I love the floral engraving on this era of the Flues and have a 28 now. Thinking of adding this 20.

http://montywhitley.com/product/ithaca-flues-model-20-gauge-shotgun/

ITHACA “FLUES” MODEL 20 GAUGE SHOTGUN
$3,450.00

20 gauge, 2 1/2″ chambers, 26″ damascus barrels with extractor’s. Beautifully engraved and casehardened frame with double triggers. Checkered forend and pistol grip buttstock measuring 14″ to a factory buttplate. Weight: 5lbs 4oz. Comb: 2″ Heel: 3 1/4″. In beautiful original condition with the barrel retaining nearly all of the damascus pattern. The receiver has bright case colors remaining over most of the area with some light silvering on the floor. Super wood and checkering. Showing evidence of light use. Mint bores.

SKU: E212192
CATEGORY: Shotguns

[Joseph Sheerin]

I've seen this gun on GI, it seems to be in very nice condition.....

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/ithaca-shotguns/ithaca-quot-flues-quot-model-20-gauge-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=101935593

[Stan Hoover]

That is a nice example, although I am a little skeptical that the case colors are original.
I noticed a Flues Grade 1 1/2 with Damascus on Gunbroker with what IMO would be original finishes. If you prefer the floral engraving pattern, this one does not have that, but it is advertised to have 2 3/4" chambers and the dimensions are more modern.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/925094518

I have no connection to the Gunbroker seller, as noted before, his prices are generally on the upper side and his guns are for sale forever, I do however admire some of his items:)

Stan

[Dan Steingraber]

Thanks for the input Stan. I too see that sellers guns A LOT because he seems to have many guns that fit in my search criteria. And as you mentioned, they seem to be there indefinitely.

[Stephen Hodges]

Nice Flues but I could not handle 3 1/4" DAH

[Garry L Gordon]

Dan, that’s a beautiful gun. I like the art nouveau engraving and the barrels are gorgeous. If it checks out and you can shoot it, go for it(!)…and post more photos if you get it.

[Dave Noreen]

Neither dealer is giving minimum wall thickness and I'd be very concerned In these guns known for thin barrels and frames that crack.

106681

I'd be very concered about the wall thickness on Mikeej99's gun around the forcing cones, as I doubt that light weight 1912 20-gauge left Fall Creek Waterpower Lot #6 with 2 3/4-inch chambers.

The No. 1 1/2 got the bold floral engraving in mid-1915 --

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By the June 5, 1918, Ithaca catalog the No. 1 1/2 was no longer being offered with Damascus barrels.

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In late 1919/early 1920 Ithaca thinned their line and the floral engraved gun became the New No. 1.

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[Garry L Gordon]

Again, with Dave’s caveats, if that art nouveau engraved gun checks out (and you can shoot), buy it.

[Ken Hill]

Dan,

Save your $$$ for the Scottish gun! :)

Ken

[Garry L Gordon]

Dan,

Save your $$$ for the Scottish gun! :)

Ken

Hey, that would work, too. :)

[Dan Steingraber]

Dan, that’s a beautiful gun. I like the art nouveau engraving and the barrels are gorgeous. If it checks out and you can shoot it, go for it(!)…and post more photos if you get it.

I love that engraving pattern as well. I've got a 28 Flues with it.

[Dan Steingraber]

Neither dealer is giving minimum wall thickness and I'd be very concerned In these guns known for thin barrels and frames that crack.

106681

I'd be very concered about the wall thickness on Mikeej99's gun around the forcing cones, as I doubt that light weight 1912 20-gauge left Fall Creek Waterpower Lot #6 with 2 3/4-inch chambers.

The No. 1 1/2 got the bold floral engraving in mid-1915 --

106682

By the June 5, 1918, Ithaca catalog the No. 1 1/2 was no longer being offered with Damascus barrels.

106683

In late 1919/early 1920 Ithaca thinned their line and the floral engraved gun became the New No. 1.

106684

I did enquire about LOP, chokes and wall thickness. The response was
"The length of pole is 14 inches, minimum wall thickness was around .029” Chokes were improve cyl & lite mod."

[Dan Steingraber]

Dan,

Save your $$$ for the Scottish gun! :)

Ken

Ken, I think we could be friends. Haha. After researching the process I've cooled on the idea of buying a gun during my trip. I have been shopping some sites though.

[Rick Losey]

The frame cracking issue was mitigated with a change around 1919/1920. It was due to shooters using heavier new loads. Of course you have no idea who has fired what in a hundred year old gun.

I think the change was at the same time the grade 1 1/2 was designated as a 1.

The 20s are nice guns if you get a good one that fits (or you are one of those who can fit yourself to a gun). Mine has become a favorite upland carry shotgun

[Garry L Gordon]

Ken, I think we could be friends. Haha. After researching the process I've cooled on the idea of buying a gun during my trip. I have been shopping some sites though.

The pair of MacNaughtons (did I spell that correctly?) at RIAC on Sunday are interesting. Have you looked at them?

[Dan Steingraber]

I have not. I'm not familiar with that site. Do you have a link to the site?

[Dan Steingraber]

The pair of MacNaughtons (did I spell that correctly?) at RIAC on Sunday are interesting. Have you looked at them?

I found the site.

[Garry L Gordon]

I have not. I'm not familiar with that site. Do you have a link to the site?

Dan, it’s the Rock Island Auction Co. rockislandauction.com The guns sell on Sunday, along with several other interesting UK guns, including a Purdey live bird hammer gun.

[Dan Steingraber]

The pair of MacNaughtons (did I spell that correctly?) at RIAC on Sunday are interesting. Have you looked at them?

Dan, it’s the Rock Island Auction Co. rockislandauction.com The guns sell on Sunday, along with several other interesting UK guns, including a Purdey live bird hammer gun.

Im headed out the door to shoot sporting clays with the GH 16 gauge I just picked up. 1891 built w/damascus. :):) I'll find them later.

[Garry L Gordon]

Im headed out the door to shoot sporting clays with the GH 16 gauge I just picked up. 1891 built w/damascus. :):) I'll find them later.

Check lot# 3401

And, shoot well!

[Dave Noreen]

I've posted this before.

By the mid-1920s, Ithaca had beefed up their Flues doubles quite a bit. In the 1912 through at least 1915 Ithaca catalogues they give their smallbore weights as --

16-ga 5 3/4 to 6 1/4
20-ga 5 1/4 to 5 3/4
28-ga 4 3/4 to 5 1/4

In the July 1919, Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 5 lbs. 14 ozs. to 6 1/2
20-ga 5 1/2 to 6
28-ga 5 to 5 1/2

In the December 1, 1919, Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 6 to 6 3/4
20-ga 5 3/4 to 6
28-ga 5 1/4 to 5 3/4

In the 1925 Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 6 1/4 to 6 3/4
20-ga 6 to 6 1/2
28-ga 5 3/4 to 6 1/4

At the time the two Ithaca No. 1 1/2s in question here were new, North American 20-gauge shells were offered with 3/4 and 7/8-ounce loads. When the 1-ounce, progressive burning powder, high velocity, load came out in 1922, Western Cartridge Co. put their Super-X load in their 2 3/4-inch FIELD shell. Remington with their Model 17 pump made for 2 3/4-inch shells followed with their 20-gauge Heavy Duck Load put up in their 2 3/4-inch Nitro Club shell. Winchester with a boat load of their Model 12 20-gauge pumps out in the world made for 2 1/2-inch shells stuffed the 1-ounce high velocity load in their 2 1/2-inch shells.

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Winchester continued to offer the 20-gauge 2 1/2-inch Super-Speed load up to WW-II --

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[Dan Steingraber]

I've posted this before.

By the mid-1920s, Ithaca had beefed up their Flues doubles quite a bit. In the 1912 through at least 1915 Ithaca catalogues they give their smallbore weights as --

16-ga 5 3/4 to 6 1/4
20-ga 5 1/4 to 5 3/4
28-ga 4 3/4 to 5 1/4

In the July 1919, Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 5 lbs. 14 ozs. to 6 1/2
20-ga 5 1/2 to 6
28-ga 5 to 5 1/2

In the December 1, 1919, Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 6 to 6 3/4
20-ga 5 3/4 to 6
28-ga 5 1/4 to 5 3/4

In the 1925 Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 6 1/4 to 6 3/4
20-ga 6 to 6 1/2
28-ga 5 3/4 to 6 1/4

At the time the two Ithaca No. 1 1/2s in question here were new, North American 20-gauge shells were offered with 3/4 and 7/8-ounce loads. When the 1-ounce, progressive burning powder, high velocity, load came out in 1922, Western Cartridge Co. put their Super-X load in their 2 3/4-inch FIELD shell. Remington with their Model 17 pump made for 2 3/4-inch shells followed with their 20-gauge Heavy Duck Load put up in their 2 3/4-inch Nitro Club shell. Winchester with a boat load of their Model 12 20-gauge pumps out in the world made for 2 1/2-inch shells stuffed the 1-ounce high velocity load in their 2 1/2-inch shells.

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Winchester continued to offer the 20-gauge 2 1/2-inch Super-Speed load up to WW-II --

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In support of this information, I have a Flues 28 gauge serial # 369437, which dates it to 1923 and it weighs 5lbs 13 oz.

[charlie cleveland]

I like those 2 1/2 inch Winchester shells....charlie

[Richard Flanders]

I have a nice 28" 1-1/2 Flues 12ga with dam bbls that has the same engraving as the Whitley gun. My uncle got it in a bar one night for $35!!! and gave it to me when I was 16, along with a 16ga Remington Mod 11. The Gunbroker gun is apparently the earlier(corrected) version of the 1-1/2 grade? I could shoot that 3-1/4" DAH on the Whitley gun just fine! Nice looking gun; very nice bbls. I wouldn't hesitate in buying it at all, especially considering how high the prices on Parker small gauge guns are getting these days. I got a nice 28" VH20 with 3-1/4" DAH from J Thynne & co for the price of the Whitley gun not that many years ago, and I shoot it better than all but one of my other Parkers....

[Dave Noreen]

Other way around, Richard. The Gunbroker gun is of 1912 vintage and the Whitley gun is between mid-1915 and 1918.

[Richard Flanders]

Jeezo Pete.... seems that the folks in the know recommend keeping your loads at 6,000psi and lower to prevent frame cracking on these light Flues 20ga guns. Easier said than done. I don't see any 20ga loads in any of my books that are that low pressure. My 1200fps loads using PB in AAHS and STS hulls are 10,300psi. I don't find anything usable in the Lyman 2,3, 4 and 5th editions.