Parker .410

[Stephen Hodges]

There always seems to be much interest in Parker .410's so I thought I would post two that came up for sale today. I have no connection to the guns. I bring it up for discussion, but if against the rules please delete.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/parker-shotguns/parker-bros-vh-grade-sxs-shotgun-410.cfm?gun_id=101939210

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/parker-shotguns/parker-bros-vh-grade-sxs-shotgun-410.cfm?gun_id=101939190

[CraigThompson]

I like them both !

[John Davis]

If I were in the the market for a wee little gun, I would go for the beaver tail forearm.

[edgarspencer]

Both nice guns, though it seems V grade .410s haven't risen at the rate other grades/ gauges have. I will confess to having sold the two my dad had, in favor of 28s, and it seemed I never really found much use for them apart from the novelty. I sold them some 20 years ago and got nearly what these are being listed at. Maybe I was just lucky, but would have thought they would have kept pace with 28s. Trends and whims, I guess.

[Jay Oliver]

Thanks for posting these Steve. I have really been thinking about a Parker 410 for a while, it almost seems like now or never with the way prices are going. It would be a sell 5 or 6 guns for 1 proposition for me, but I might be okay with that. I should say I have a Citori 410 that has just been wonderful, and shoots better than it should for a 410. Having said that I really would like a Parker 410. And I would agree with Edgar that you can do so much more with a 28ga., but I am still mesmerized by the 410 for some reason...

On the two guns posted the first one has a recoil pad, which I am assuming was added to increase LOP, however I would think that would hurt desirability/value unless it was ordered that way. It just doesn’t look right on a 410.

The second gun seems to have the non-spurred flat buttplate, which I just found out was typical for these at the time. Also the second gun is listed with 3 inch chambers, but was made in 1928. From what I have read they should be 2 ½" as the 3” inch shell was introduced with the Winchester Model 42 in 1933. I read this in a post that Dean Romig started: https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34439&highlight=410

Is the desirability and/or value affected by lengthening the chambers in that gun?

While a 3 inch gun would have more versatility, I would think lengthening the chambers would affect value and possibly safety on the lighter 000 frame, but I don’t really know. I think you could play around with the loads and shot in a 2 ½’ gun to make it work in most situations you would use a 410.

Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Jay

[Stephen Hodges]

Jay I have no idea about Parker .410’s. I posted this because it seems to me they do generate much interest here. Good luck and I bet some experts will reply.

[Dean Romig]

IMO both guns are overpriced based on the modifications. Again IMO the beavertail forend is a replacement and the buttstock on the second one is a replacement.





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[CraigThompson]

IMO both guns are overpriced based on the modifications. Again IMO the beavertail forend is a replacement and the buttstock on the second one is a replacement.





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Whether your assesment is correct or not , I still like them . And based on the one that sold at Poulin's this past saturday for 34.5K after the premium was added I don't think the price that bad .

Now if we could all have what we wanted I'd like one with a straight grip , BT , SST , checkered butt , ejectors , 26" skeet in skeet out VHE to match the 12 and 16 I have in that configuration .

[Victor Wasylyna]

I’m a buy high, sell low kind of guy. (Not by choice.) I was tickled at the Southern when some dealer stopped me, asked to look at my .410 Parker, then proceed to offer about what I paid for the darn thing not too long ago. I said “no way,” as I was making my way to the sporting clays course.

Go on, getcha a .410 Parker!

-Victor

[J. Scott Hanes]

Perhaps it is just the camera angle, but to my eye neither stock looks to be a 1-1/2" DAC and 2" DAH.

[Dan Steingraber]

I agree Edgar. Having grown up as a Stevens 410 as my only gun I have a love for them but but the 28 is infinitely more functional.

[Dean Romig]

IMO both guns are overpriced based on the modifications. Again IMO the beavertail forend is a replacement and the buttstock on the second one is a replacement.



In support of my opinion expressed earlier - the following taken from the Serialization book.

235926 - V H 0 B 41 26 - 0 = no extras (originally made with a splinter forend)

226241 - V H 0 B 41 26 - B = Ball Grip - was not made with a capped pistol grip.





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[Jay Oliver]

Dean, what your thoughts on the chambers? The first gun was made in 1931 and the Second was made in 1928. One would "assume" that the chambers would have been lengthened in both guns.

[Bill Murphy]

A look at the stock books may solve the chamber length mystery. Not always the case, but worth a look. Ithaca rechambered their double .410s in the early days without any mention of danger to the gun.

[Dean Romig]

I think Mr. Murphy gave about the answer I would have given. I think there is plenty of metal in .410 chambers and barrels to lengthen 2.5" chambers to 3" but that's just my opinion.





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[Jay Oliver]

I guess my question would then be is it better to have the improved functionality of 3" chambers or to have the originality of 2 1/2" chambers?

It might depend on the buyer I suppose. If one was to stumble across a 410 he liked with 2 1/2" chambers could they have the chambers lengthened, by a professional maybe someone like Mike Orlen. Then have a gun they could really use and not worry too much on the impact on value?

[Dean Romig]

I would think for a shooter gun the 3" would be preferred for the availability of ammunition with a wider variety of loads.





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[edgarspencer]

In as much as Steve suggested comments 'on these two guns', potentially neither of which are in their 'As Shipped from Parker' configuration, it really comes down to desirable features, as they are now. Value is really not part of the equation, since there really isn't a table one could go to in order to determine an actual value.
Three inch chambers would seem to add functionality. Likewise, a Beavertail would be more desirable, on such an otherwise tiny grip. If there were two other VH .410s out there that you could put either of these against, it would come down to condition, and then determine if either of these guns are a comparatively good value. I guess if I was in the market for a Unicorn, I'd probably grab the first one I found.

[Dean Romig]

So glad I'm not in the market for a unicorn... or a Parker .410 for that matter. :whistle:





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[CraigThompson]

So glad I'm not in the market for a unicorn... or a Parker .410 for that matter. :whistle:
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It’s all kinda irrelevant for me ! Most of what I “want” I really can’t afford :rotf:

[Jay Oliver]

I was just curious and trying to continue/improve my Parker education. Everyone's take on these two 410s makes sense to me. You just don't see these that often and this thread started by Steve gave me an opportunity to ask some Parker 410 questions I had been thinking about.

[Bill Murphy]

It is likely that any Parker .410 made before 1933, with 3" chambers, was probably drilled out to 3" at Parker Brothers. I say this because anyone would want the "new" 3" shell to play with and the makers would be the only source of a 3" .410 reamer at that time. I would not hesitate to regard an early Parker with 3" chambers as original or factory modified. An early 2 1/2" chamber Parker .410 is probably a rare bird.

[Jay Oliver]

Bill I hadn't thought of it like that. It makes sense that Parker would lengthen the chambers for customers' gun. There might not have been any other way to do it at the time. Very good point.

If one found a 2 1/2" gun would you keep that way?

[CraigThompson]

Bill I hadn't thought of it like that. It makes sense that Parker would lengthen the chambers for customers' gun. There might not have been any other way to do it at the time. Very good point.

If one found a 2 1/2" gun would you keep that way?

IF I ever got a Parker 410 I wouldn't ream it out . But I've got an IJ 410 Hercules with 3" chambers . Really anything I'd use a 410 for 2 1/2" has always been adequate for me be it dove , quail , skeet and what little bit of sporting I shoot with 410 .

[Bill Murphy]

I wouldn't trust any of these barrel butchers to work on any Parker. Choke and chamber butchers who specialize in this work are well documented as people we shouldn't trust with our guns. They are not full service gunsmiths.

[Dean Romig]

I've had Mike Orlen in Amherst, MA do choke work for me and they were done perfectly.





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[Dave Noreen]

When both of those guns were made, the 2 1/2-inch .410-bore shells carried a load of 3/8-ounce of shot.

106686

A few years after the 3-inch .410-bore shell was introduced our North American ammunition manufacturers upped the 2 1/2-inch .410-bore shell to the 1/2-ounce load we all know.

[Jay Oliver]

I probably should come clean...I found out about a 410 for sale privately a week or so ago. I saw it today and I could not pass it up. Not in the book, but made in 1927 still has 2 1/2" chambers(actually more like 2 7/16" as Edgar mentioned). 26" barrels M/F on a 000 frame 5 1/2 lbs. 14 1/4 LOP ball grip with splinter forend. Looks like it was tastefully refinished several years ago. I don't know what else to say other than I saw it and I just fell in love...

[Jay Oliver]

Dave I have seen on 410 Parker hang tags that they were tested/patterned with 3/8oz. of shot. Does it say on those boxes the powder charge in drams or the velocity?

There is a company called Sterling that makes 3/8oz 2 1/2" 410s @ 1329fps. That seemed a little fast to me

[Bill Murphy]

Congratulations, Jay.

[Stan Hillis]

Dave I have seen on 410 Parker hang tags that they were tested/patterned with 3/8oz. of shot. Does it say on those boxes the powder charge in drams or the velocity?

There is a company called Sterling that makes 3/8oz 2 1/2" 410s @ 1329fps. That seemed a little fast to me

My bet would be that the Sterling load would not be regulated out of any vintage .410 double. I have had considerable experience with .410 doubles, in the field and on clays courses, vintage and contemporary, and have found several to be very finicky about what they want to be fed.

Loads on the light end, and at high velocities, often crossfire in lightweight doubleguns such as .410s.

Also, addressing an earlier question you had about loads, I have had great success with WW 3/4 oz. loads on doves and quail, and have "designed", and use, a 3/4 oz. nickel plated load of 8 1/2s to great success on doves. Patterns beautifully and definitely puts doves on the ground "deader" than any .410 load I've ever used on them. It's a little sledgehammer.

[Bill Murphy]

Yup, Stan, same load I shoot in 20 and 12.

[Garry L Gordon]

Jay, congratulations on your new gun. I’ve been buttering up my wife in hopes of getting the go ahead for one. I’d like one just like yours. Post some photos when you can.

[Jay Oliver]

I will start a new thread on this, though this thread helped me make the decision on this 410. I will get some pictures up and should be able to try the gun out tomorrow. Gary I did have to charm my wife as fast as I could as time was of the essence on this deal. Luckily she understands by now :)

I have ordered some nickle plated shot in addition to some other components that are on the way, which I believe patterns better especially in a 410. Since I am limited to 2 1/2 inch shells I might see if I can work up some 5/8oz loads. Or use my 5/8oz bar which probably throws 9/16oz. I would like to get this out in the field. Maybe get my first grouse or woodcock with it...

Thanks everyone I will follow up with some pictures soon

[Dave Noreen]

The early .410-bore ammunition company catalog listings are pretty vague. This from Rem-UMC 1915-16 --

106695

106696

This in the 1916 Winchester catalog --

106697

A bit more info given here in the 1922 Western Cartridge Co. catalog, highlighted in yellow --

106698

No powder or weight of shot load on the box labels though --

106699

[Dylan Rhodes]

The early .410-bore ammunition company catalog listings are pretty vague. This from Rem-UMC 1915-16 --

106695

106696

This in the 1916 Winchester catalog --

106697

A bit more info given here in the 1922 Western Cartridge Co. catalog, highlighted in yellow --

106698

No powder or weight of shot load on the box labels though --

106699
24 & 35 dollars for how many? That is some money in 1916. I also rather enjoy where it says suitable for developed neighborhoods. :rotf:

[Dave Noreen]

24 & 35 dollars for how many? That is some money in 1916. I also rather enjoy where it says suitable for developed neighborhoods.

The Rem-UMC and the Western catalogs list the prices as per 1000, so I would guess the Winchester price is also per 1000.

That "developed neighborhoods" gives me pause. My aunt & uncle were in domestic service for a wealthy Chicago lawyer. After WW-II he was ready to retire and looked around the country for where he believed his money would make him live the longest. He settled on the Stanford University medical center and bought a seven acre "estate" nearby at 284 Valparaiso. When I would visit them as a teenager, I shot several quail in the orchard with my aunt's Winchester Model 37 .410-bore. A few years ago when I was in California I drove through Valparaiso and where the "estate" was it is now wall to wall Mac Mansions.

[CraigThompson]

I’d not seen or heard of 410 2” until recently . I acquired a Belgium double hammer 410 that has 2” chambers as we speak but will soon get run out to 2 1/2” .

[Jeff Kuss]

Rst has 2" 410 shells. They are sweet shooting shells.

[Dave Noreen]

Just to continue to muddy the .410-bore waters, the early Western Cartridge Co. FIELD .410-bore shells were loaded in a 2 1/8-inch case to give the loaded shells a 2-inch length --

106713

106714

[edgarspencer]

Someone gave my dad a couple cases of these not all that long ago (well, maybe a while back, as he's been gone 37 years). I couldn't guess the number of boxes we shot up at the old town dump.

[allen newell]

Congrats Jay. I would have to pass on in order for my daughter to buy one with the insurance money. But I'll tell her to look out for a nice 28'

[Jay Oliver]

Allen, I shot this "new" 410 the other day at Peace Dale and it was soooo nice. I was able to hit some targets that I missed with a 16 a few days earlier. It was everything I had hoped it would be and more. While this was a big investment, I am glad I did it....

[allen newell]

Jay, next time you decide to shoot at Pea gi me a callvecedale, pls give me a call..I'll drive down and shoot with you. I might even bring and shoot my Savage Springfield 410 that my dad bought me at age 12. God that was a long time ago.

[allen newell]

My fingers are too Damm big for my cell keyboard!

[Garry L Gordon]

Allen, I shot this "new" 410 the other day at Peace Dale and it was soooo nice. I was able to hit some targets that I missed with a 16 a few days earlier. It was everything I had hoped it would be and more. While this was a big investment, I am glad I did it....

Jay, I’m showing this to my Boss, trying to soften her up for next year. :corn:

Keep us posted on your outings with your new toy.

[CraigThompson]

Jay, I’m showing this to my Boss, trying to soften her up for next year. :corn:

Keep us posted on your outings with your new toy.

Uh huh I could show it to my boss until doomsday and she’d never get why I wanted it or more than two or three of the ones I already have !!!! Plain and simple my boss is practical to a fault .

[Rich Anderson]

if we could all have what we wanted I'd like one with a straight grip , BT , SST , checkered butt , ejectors , 26" skeet in skeet out VHE to match the 12 and 16 I have in that configuration .

I know of one coming up for sale. A high condition skeet gun. Grab your check book LOL

I've had a Fox (CSM) FE 410 for years and love the gun. I bought it gently used for much less than I could have bought a VHE skeet gun. It's a great quail gun and when the woodcock flights are in it's about perfect.

[Bill Murphy]

I've seen your FE Fox and am watching the obituaries. PM me about the VHE skeet that you mentioned. Thanks.