Latest observed 0 frame 16

[Mills Morrison]

I have observed that, below sn 200K, Parker 16's are about half 0 frame and half 1 frame. After 200K, all I recall are on 1 frames. What is the latest folks here have observed?

The latest I recall is 183238 . The next question is why and my theory is they determined the 0 frame was a bit small and they got better at making 1 frames lighter, but who knows.

And since everyone loves pictures . . . Here is one from the 150K sn range:bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

My personal 16 gauge research collection shows that 0 frame and 1 frame 16s are generally the same weight or close. One of my 1 frame 16s was made with a 00 frame stock, probably to arrive at a 6 1/4 pound weight without using a 0 frame.

[Mills Morrison]

I have noted that too. A recent 1 frame VH with 26" barrels handles better than most of the 0 frames I have

[Dean Romig]

This sounds like a good exercise for another entry to "Parkers Found."





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[Mills Morrison]

This sounds like a good exercise for another entry to "Parkers Found."





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I was thinking the same thing. I actually checked Parkers Found to see if there was an entry

[Aaron Beck]

My personal 16 gauge research collection shows that 0 frame and 1 frame 16s are generally the same weight or close. One of my 1 frame 16s was made with a 00 frame stock, probably to arrive at a 6 1/4 pound weight without using a 0 frame.

This may be covered in Parker's 102 but how would one determine which stock size was used? Is that based on the buttplate or other measurements.

[Garry L Gordon]

Mills, I'm interested in this. BTW, like Bill, I have found little predictability in the weight of 16s based on frame size. BUT, a 0 frame feels better in the hand to me (and I do a lot of carrying).

I have four 16s from the 1920s (200XXX range). They are all 1 frame guns. One weighs 6 lbs. 11 oz., one is 6 lbs. 10 oz., the third is 6 lbs. 5.6 oz., and the last one is 6 lbs. 10 oz.

I have 3 hammerless 16s from the earlier period you cite. Two are 0 frame guns, and the third is one a 1 frame.

I have two hammer 16s built on frame lightened 0 frames, but I assume you are not interested in these.

[Mills Morrison]

Thanks Garry! And sorry I missed you at the Southern, but that is easy to do at that event . . .

Are any of your 0 frames later than 183238?

Weights, factors determining weight and hammer guns might be good fodder for a future survey. To me, the narrower, more svelte 0 frames just look better

[Garry L Gordon]

Thanks Garry! And sorry I missed you at the Southern, but that is easy to do at that event . . .

Are any of your 0 frames later than 183238?

Weights, factors determining weight and hammer guns might be good fodder for a future survey. To me, the narrower, more svelte 0 frames just look better

No 0 frames from later that 183238, but one of the 1 frame guns is in the 124XXX range. I can look up the exact serial numbers if you like.

You may be on to something...keep at it.

[Bill Murphy]

Aaron, buttplate size is definitely a criteria, as well as stock depth and width leading up to the buttplate. I know no one measures these dimensions, but they are different in different guns. A "clue" leading me to this conclusion is that my little #1 frame DHE 16 has a buttplate smaller than on either of my .410s. That DHE 16 #1 frame weighs 6 pounds, 4 ounces with 28" barrels.

[Mills Morrison]

No 0 frames from later that 183238, but one of the 1 frame guns is in the 124XXX range. I can look up the exact serial numbers if you like.

You may be on to something...keep at it.



1 and 0 frames were common up to some point before 200K and then all you see are 1 frames

[Aaron Beck]

I would be interested in knowing if 1 frame 12 gauges declined around the same time.
The oft posted gauges chart lists them both as "obsolete", a potentially interesting choice of words.

[Mills Morrison]

1 frame 12 gauges declined when the 1 1/2 frame was introduced.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Mills, I love the POW grip on that one.

[Mills Morrison]

Mills, I love the POW grip on that one.

Me too! I liked it so much, I used it as a model for a restock on another gun

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Sure wish they had made more like that.

[Mills Morrison]

Back to the question at hand, what has everyone else observed?

Has anyone personally observed a 0 frame 16 above 183238?

[Tom Hawkins]

Bought these 16 O frame ejector barrels a while back, Serial number is 194964 for a grade 4.

[Mills Morrison]

Those are cool! Too bad the rest of the gun is missing

[Tom Hawkins]

They could be a good project or a second barrel set. They are 26" 3 lbs. with tight chokes. It seems to me that good barrel sets as well as factory wood are much harder to find these days so I snag them when I can.

[Mills Morrison]

I prefer 26" barrels for an upland gun but don't mind 28" either.

[Mills Morrison]

They could be a good project or a second barrel set. They are 26" 3 lbs. with tight chokes. It seems to me that good barrel sets as well as factory wood are much harder to find these days so I snag them when I can.

Have you measured the wall thickness? Do the bores appear altered or unaltered?

[Tom Hawkins]

They seem to be original high condition with twin ivory beads. They could have been aborted during the damascus scare.

[Mills Morrison]

Very possible . . . and that makes you wonder what gauge were the new barrels?

[Tom Hawkins]

The 0 frame would have more options for sure.

[Dave Moore]

I wonder about the frame size vs weight on the 16, even on older guns.
This is #130909 a 16ga DHE with 26” Damascus barrels made in 1905, it is on a 1 frame and weighs 6#5oz.
My 0 frame 16 that is #171,000 range weighs 6#12oz but it has 30” barrels.

[Dean Romig]

What a beautiful gun Dave!!





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[Aaron Beck]

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/parker-shotguns/parker-dhe-16-gauge.cfm?gun_id=101848269

[Mills Morrison]

Wow

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Wow, thats a chubby one. I have a PH 20 O frame 28" thats a portly 6lbs 11 oz.

[Garry L Gordon]

Mills, I found another in my safe that might lend some new information to your study. Its a GHE in the 194XXX range and is on a 0 frame. It has 28 inch steel barrels and weighs a whopping 6 lbs. 12 ounces...but still, it has that nice slim frame and handles well.

[David Noble]

Now that is a nice looking gun Garry! You should tell and show us more about it.

[Tracy Pellett]

The 16 gauge 0 frame on Steve Barnett’s site turned out to be a 1 frame .

[Mills Morrison]

The 16 gauge 0 frame on Steve Barnett’s site turned out to be a 1 frame .

That does not surprise me.

Like I said, after sn 200,000, I just don't see any 0 frame 16s. You really wish records survived to explain some production decisions made by Parker and the reasoning behind them

[Dean Romig]

A few documents are probably around but they have probably been forgotten or possibly stashed.





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[Mark Sjoberg]

I'll throw some specs in to the mix. VH16 0 Frame, 28" barrels, 6lbs 6oz's. Handles like a wand. Ser#173347

[Mills Morrison]

That is not the latest observed here, but is among the later group. Sounds like a wonderful gun