Fishtail Lever Survey

[Dean Romig]

Maybe this is the right time to ask those with a fishtail lever hammer gun that won't open with the right hammer cocked...

WHAT FRAME SIZE IS YOUR GUN?




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[Mike Koneski]

I checked my frame size and this gun is a 2 frame. The fishtail mates perfectly with the hammer profile. I played around with it and it does open with the hammer cocked but I have to tap the top of the bbls with my off hand for the bbls to pivot. I will give it a real good lube and see if that does the trick.

[Stan Hoover]

No fishtail here, I keep wishing:rolleyes:

[Wayne Owens]

7 frame 8 gauge and 6 frame 10 gauge will not open with right hammer cocked. 0 frame 20 gauge does open.

[Dave Moore]

I have two hammer guns with fishtail top levers. A O frame 16 and a 1 frame 12.
The O frame 16 will open intermittently with the right hammer cocked, it is very close.
The 1 frame 12 always opens with the hammer cocked.

[Aaron Beck]

Dont want to derail the survey but is it possible wear or attempts to tighten the wear have changed function despite original intent?

[Dean Romig]

Dont want to derail the survey but is it possible wear or attempts to tighten the wear have changed function despite original intent?


I would suspect that there would have been enough clearance originally been built in to the gun originally produced with the fishtail lever to have accomodated this possibility.





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[Harold Lee Pickens]

16 ga 0 frame Fishtail will not open with right hammer cocked
12 ga Grade 2 1 1/2 frame straight lever will open

[Craig Larter]

My 6 frame fishtail 8ga O grade will not open with the right trigger cocked.

[Michael Bartlett]

12 ga, Grade 1, 1-frame, fishtail lever, always opens with right hammer cocked

[Bruce P Bruner]

My 1888, 12 gauge, 1-frame, grade 2, fishtail hammer gun opens every time with the hammer cocked or not.

[edgarspencer]

Not to hijack the original intent of this thread, but since it has the attention of Fish Tail folks; Do any of you, have, had, or know of guns in grades 3 and up with fishtails? I do not recall ever seeing one.
To legitimize my post, I have had many top lever 16ga guns (0 frame), and do not recall any which would not open with the right hammer cocked. My only TL 12 with a fishtail would not, which doesn't make sense, as the wider the frame, the further the hammer is to the right, seemingly making it More likely to open.

[Steve Huffman]

Just a thought maybe a dumb one too but I have wondered if the fishtail lever was for us left handed shooters to give a edge as its closer to the left side when we open a sxs

[Wayne Owens]

Not to hijack the original intent of this thread, but since it has the attention of Fish Tail folks; Do any of you, have, had, or know of guns in grades 3 and up with fishtails? I do not recall ever seeing one.

Edgar,
I have a grade 3 and grade 4 both with fishtail top levers. They are both 1905 guns.

[Dean Romig]

Edgar,
I have a grade 3 and grade 4 both with fishtail top levers. They are both 1905 guns.


Wayne, are they both hammer guns and do they both open with the right hammer cocked?

That would be in keeping with the original question posed in this thread.





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[Wayne Owens]

Dean,
Both guns were mentioned in my first post keeping with the original question posed.

[Dean Romig]

This 'Ex Libris Dean Romig' 16 gauge 0-frame Grade 1 opens easily with the right hammer cocked.



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[Dean Romig]

Here's another 0-frame Grade 1 16 gauge that also opend with the right hammer cocked.



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[Scott Hornacek]

Not to hijack the original intent of this thread, but since it has the attention of Fish Tail folks; Do any of you, have, had, or know of guns in grades 3 and up with fishtails? I do not recall ever seeing one.
To legitimize my post, I have had many top lever 16ga guns (0 frame), and do not recall any which would not open with the right hammer cocked. My only TL 12 with a fishtail would not, which doesn't make sense, as the wider the frame, the further the hammer is to the right, seemingly making it More likely to open.

I have a Grade 3 fishtail dating to 1888.

[Dean Romig]

Yet another 0-frame 16 gauge Grade-1 that opens with the right hammer cocked.



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[Dean Romig]

I have a Grade 3 fishtail dating to 1888.


Scott, does it open with the right hammer cocked?





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[Dave Moore]

Not to hijack the original intent of this thread, but since it has the attention of Fish Tail folks; Do any of you, have, had, or know of guns in grades 3 and up with fishtails? I do not recall ever seeing one.
To legitimize my post, I have had many top lever 16ga guns (0 frame), and do not recall any which would not open with the right hammer cocked. My only TL 12 with a fishtail would not, which doesn't make sense, as the wider the frame, the further the hammer is to the right, seemingly making it More likely to open.

I have a grade 3 #1 frame 12 from 1887 with a fishtail top lever, it opens with the hammer cocked.

[Dean Romig]

I have a Grade-4 12 gauge 1-frame that opens with the right hammer cocked and doesn’t need a fish tail lever.



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[edgarspencer]

Just a thought maybe a dumb one too but I have wondered if the fishtail lever was for us left handed shooters to give a edge as its closer to the left side when we open a sxs

Being a Lefty, I can say assuredly, it's not a dumb thought.

[Steve Huffman]

Two of my hammer guns open with hammer back my D grade no just a bit

[Dean Romig]

Two of my hammer guns open with hammer back my D grade no just a bit

Are they straight kever or fishtail?





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[Steve Huffman]

Straight sorry

[Scott Hornacek]

Dean,

Gun opens with right hammer cocked and fishtail touches the hammer. It is a 2 frame.

[Dean Weber]

Fishtail
16 zero frame opens with rh cocked
12 1 frame opens with rh cocked

[Jack Huber]

My #2 frame hammer gun with a fishtale lever will not open with the right hammer cocked.

[CraigThompson]

This answer isn’t going to help your survey ....... but I have some that do and some that don’t . But I gotta say I’m no advocate of closing and opening with the hammers cocked on live chambers .

[Dean Romig]

It is much safer to open a gun with a cocked hammer than it it to lower the hammer where the hammer can slip from your thumb…
We do it all the time with hammerless guns… and I put little faith in a manual safety as I have seen a few of those fail.





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[Steve Huffman]

So if a gun will not open with a fishtail lever and right hammer cocked the thought of the reason for the fishtail lever of being able to carry a gun open and cocked is not the reason for a fishtail lever Just asking . And why would you have one on a Hammerless

[Steve Huffman]

It is much safer to open a gun with a cocked hammer than it it to lower the hammer where the hammer can slip from your thumb…
We do it all the time with hammerless guns… and I put little faith in a manual safety as I have seen a few of those fail.





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Dean if your manual safety would fail or you take it off safe you would still have to pull the trigger or you would have worn sears ect for the gun to discharge. Yes ?

[Dean Romig]

The jury’s still out on why the fishtail lever was originally developed. There seems to be no distinct rhyme or reason for it. It has always been accepted that it was to facilitate opening the gun with the right hammer cocked but there are so many coming forth that seem to dispel that theory…

Fishtail levers on hammerless guns was simply to use up existing stock of fishtail levers.





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[Dean Romig]

Dean if your manual safety would fail or you take it off safe you would still have to pull the trigger or you would have worn sears ect for the gun to discharge. Yes ?

Yes!…. But accidents do happen don’t they.

Likewise, the same would need to occur on a hammerless gun - but opening it makes it completely safe from accidental discharge without the need to touch a hammer or a trigger.





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[Steve Huffman]

Yes!…. But accidents do happen don’t they.

Likewise, the same would need to occur on a hammerless gun - but opening it makes it completely safe from accidental discharge without the need to touch a hammer or a trigger.





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So you carry all your sxs open is what your saying

[Arthur Shaffer]

I've been following both fishtail threads and find it interesting, although I have no guns and no experience with them. However, I saw something on eBay this morning (Item 144476752616) which triggered a question. It is a listing for a used hammerless fishtail lever. One of the pictures shows the back, which has four distinct stamps. Three don't particularly look like numbers in the picture but one is clearly a 1 . The question that comes to mind is:

Were the fishtails marked on the back as to frame size?

I doubt many people have removed, and then examined one, except for a professional. If they were, then the examples which won't open while cocked may be replacements or simply wrong sizes installed at the factory. The first doesn;t seem likely, given the number already reported in a few posts. The latter doesn't seem very Parker like.

Using up the leftover ones on hammerless guns would be an obvious move in either case.

My personal thought had always been that they were made for left handed shooters, since they put the lever in a location for a left handed shooter which is a mirror image of a right hand image when new. Another possible reason is that larger gauges and frames were popular during this period and people were smaller on average. This lever may have been easier for people with small hands to cock the left lock. I would vote for the left hand reason. Occum's razor.

[Steve Huffman]

As for they used up the inventory on hammerless guns Im not set on that because if I ordered a gun back in the day and I have seen no letter as to what lever was ordered and it came with a fish lever I would send it back. So its still a mystery to me .

[Dean Romig]

So you carry all your sxs open is what your saying


I often even carry my hammerless guns , with functioning safety, open a lot of the time while in the field.





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[todd allen]

My 0 frame 16 opens just fine with the hammers cocked
105704

[George Lang]

Mine also.

[Daryl Corona]

My 12ga. grade2 opens fine with hammer cocked.

[Milt Fitterman]

Pulled out a few guns to get to the back of the safe (always the one you are looking for) to get to my grade 3 hammer gun. After struggling I looked for the top lever and realized it was an Under lifter. Oops!

[Mike Koneski]

Pulled out a few guns to get to the back of the safe (always the one you are looking for) to get to my grade 3 hammer gun. After struggling I looked for the top lever and realized it was an Under lifter. Oops!

So Milt, does your lifter open with the right hammer cocked? Asking for a friend. :rotf::rotf:

[Mike Koneski]

Two other 12g fish-tails in the safe. Both 2 frames. The G grade is HL so it’s moot. The 12g hammer gun will not open with the right hammer cocked. Dean, you had that gun for a while until it came my way.

[Dean Romig]

Two other 12g fish-tails in the safe. Both 2 frames. The G grade is HL so it’s moot. The 12g hammer gun will not open with the right hammer cocked. Dean, you had that gun for a while until it came my way.

Any of several reasons could be the cause of it not opening with the right hammer cocked, not the least of which could be the Vulcan Steel barrels… or maybe because it has an add-on Monte Carlo stock, or or maybe the A grade forend tip. But I’ll bet it’s because of the mismatched C and B grade replacement hammers….:shock:





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[Mike Koneski]

Can we pick just one reason and stick to it?? 😂🤣🤪

[Dean Romig]

In fact, that highly engraved A grade forend tip is the exact one we used to create the Distinguished Service Pin.

… but I digress. Back to the original topic.




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[Mills Morrison]

Here we go. 1 frame 12 gauge (left) and 0 frame 16 (right)

[Keith Sirmans]

Mills those are sweet!

[Mills Morrison]

Thanks Keith! I had the 16 freshened up last year and this photo reminds me the 12 needs attention too. The 12 is Harry's go-to Parker for double gun events

[Dean Romig]

I had never noticed before that the top tang of your 2-frame(?) 12 is another half again as wide as your 0-frame 16. Can you measure them and let us know?

And how close are the in serial number?



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[edgarspencer]

Are those steel barrels on your 16, Mills?

[Dean Romig]

Are those steel barrels on your 16, Mills?


Yeah, what's with that ejector stop plate???





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[edgarspencer]

Yeah, what's with that ejector stop plate???

Zenni is having a 30% off sale right now.

[Mills Morrison]

Not sure what is going on. It came to me that way.

FWIW both guns handle a bit heavy for their frame sizes

[Aaron Beck]

Look at the negative space, its almost like it was designed that way!

[Jack Kuzepski]

Finally found my 10 ga hammer gun #3 frame. It will not open if the right hammer is cocked. The serial number is 55,2XX.

Jack

[Arthur Shaffer]

Just happened upon an article in a an early Double Gun Journal which made me remeber this thread so I wanted to mention it. Written by Charlie Price for the Volume Four Issue 4 edition entitled "The Parker Fish-Tail Top Lever". It discusses a lot of the itms brought up in thisthread, but also touches on some other points. Some of them are: the order book in mid-1884 had a not to "Make hooked top lever so gun will cock when open"; Many early top lever hammer guns before the fishtail had the lever offset to the left; and there is a picture of a 7 frame 8 gauge with a fishtail that will cock while open, but if the gun is cocked when closed, the gun will not open when cocked.

It's a pretty interesting article if interested in the subject and worth a look if you have the Issue available.

[Mills Morrison]

All of the hammerless Parkers with fishtails occur between 66,000 and 74,000 serial numbers. There have been rumors of ones outside that range, but rumors only.

[Dean Romig]

Charlie Price was and still is one of the most esteemed and highly revered Parker collectors and researchers.





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[Arthur Shaffer]

The rumors have grown wings and risen.

The 3 guns pictured in the article with fish-tail levers were a 10 gauge D Grade 2 frame No. 96343, a 10 gauge EH Grade 3 frame No, 69232 and an 8 gauge P Grade 7 frame No. 84027.

[Dan Steingraber]

I have a lovely little 0 frame 16 gauge #69134. It doesn’t show up in the ID &Serialization book.

[Dan Steingraber]

Maybe this is the right time to ask those with a fishtail lever hammer gun that won't open with the right hammer cocked...

WHAT FRAME SIZE IS YOUR GUN?

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I have a 3 frame 10 gauge that opens with the right hammer cocked.

[CraigThompson]

Thanks Keith! I had the 16 freshened up last year and this photo reminds me the 12 needs attention too. The 12 is Harry's go-to Parker for double gun events

Were those the two that you bought as a pair on GB ?

[Mills Morrison]

Were those the two that you bought as a pair on GB ?

That is them