First 00 frame.

[JACK MURPHY JR]

What Year was the first 00 frame Parker made ?
Do we know it’s serial number or it’s approximation.
I should rephrase the question. When did the 00 frame become the standard frame on the 28 gauge
Thanks Jack.

[Garry L Gordon]

Good question. Anxious to read the response.

[Jim DiSpagno]

I believe it was a 20 ga.lifter and was around 1879 or 80

[Dean H Hanson]

My 1879 lifter 20 is ohh so close to an 00 frame.... I agree with Jim.

[Garry L Gordon]

So were those guns mentioned stamped 00? Or just measured to the frame size?

[Dean H Hanson]

Frame size determined by later Parker knowledge, measurements ... stamping of frame size was not evident until the early "80's....

[Dean Romig]

So were those guns mentioned stamped 00? Or just measured to the frame size?

No, those early 20 gauge Lifters were not stamped with a frame size and the measurement between firing pin centers was actually a bit smaller than the published dimensions of the 28 gauge guns that were stamped 00 on the lug.





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[Dave Noreen]

Good job of obfuscation guys!!

[edgarspencer]

What Year was the first 00 frame Parker made ?
Do we know it’s serial number or it’s approximation.
I should rephrase the question. When did the 00 frame become the standard frame on the 28 gauge
Thanks Jack.
Jack's Title opened the door, but he qualified his question, which remains.......
Good job of obfuscation guys!!

No Kidding!

[James L. Martin]

1913 is the year of the earliest 00 frame 28ga that I have seen. I don't believe there is a list of 28ga frame sizes, if anyone knows of one please chim in.

[Dean Romig]

I don’t believe there is a list of guns by frame sizes. That infornation has never been made available. It probably doesn’t exist because Parker Bros. never recordsd it that we know of… unless it was recorded somewhere in the 3” of the pages of the books that didn’t fit in the copying machines that were used by those who went to Remington Arms to retriev the records.






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[Garry L Gordon]

Sorry, I made a mistake responding.

[charlie cleveland]

were there ever any 3 inch guns made with Damascus or composite steel barrels guns made...charlie

[edgarspencer]

No, those early 20 gauge Lifters were not stamped with a frame size and the measurement between firing pin centers was actually a bit smaller than the published dimensions of the 28 gauge guns that were stamped 00 on the lug.

It took me a while, Dean, but I found the pictures of the barrel set, 6999, which was one of the 20ga "small frame" guns. I no longer have them, but last I heard, the member who bought them from me was fitting them to Austin's 'small' gun. The picture I was looking for, and found showed my trammel calipers indicating .901" between centers, so roughly 1/32" smaller than the dimension which became the 00 frame centers. That gun must have been a joy to carry.
Interesting fact about 6999. It was originally a two barrel set, one being 20ga. SxS, the other being, If memory serves, .44WCF in the left and 20ga. in the right.

[Dean Romig]

Interesting about the second set of barrels...





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[Bruce Hering]

[QUOTE=edgarspencer;
Interesting fact about 6999. It was originally a two barrel set, one being 20ga. SxS, the other being, If memory serves, .44WCF in the left and 20ga. in the right.[/QUOTE]

Now that is a neat set of barrels. I wonder what the owner used them for....

[edgarspencer]

See page 673 in TPS for the gun with both barrels. Sad that it got separated

[Bill Murphy]

"A joy to carry" would be the pair of 000 frame 28 gauges displayed by one of our members at the Ohio Gun Collectors PGCA meeting several years ago. One was a AAHE and one was an AHE. The owner was a neighbor of mine and he allowed me to measure the pin separation. They were legitimate 000 frames and the guns appeared to be all factory. Nope, didn't record the serial numbers.

[Chuck Bishop]

Edgar, are you absolutely sure of the .901? Just asking for a friend!:rolleyes:

[edgarspencer]

You have a friend?
Absolutely? Only as well as I got the points in the center of the primers.

[Dean Romig]

Just a thought… wouldn’t it be more accurate to measure between the centers of the firing pins… unless the gun’s frame is not available?





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[edgarspencer]

It took me a while, Dean, but I found the pictures of the barrel set, 6999, which was one of the 20ga "small frame" guns. I no longer have them, but last I heard, the member who bought them from me was fitting them to Austin's 'small' gun. .
Little hint
Sad that it got separated
Another Little hint.
Just a thought:rotf::rotf:… wouldn’t it be more accurate to measure between the centers of the firing pins… unless the gun’s frame is not available?

I guess my previous posts were not clear enough for you, to indicate all I had was a set of barrels. I'll try and remember this the next time I'm measuring centers and actually have the receiver.

[Mills Morrison]

Well, what is the earliest known 00 frame 28 gauge hammerless Parker? I even looked in Parkers Found and don't see it.

[Chuck Bishop]

I have many friends, thanks for asking. I just measured my back action which takes a 12b shell. It measured 1.0000000. That's the best I could do! :rotf:

[Bill Murphy]

Charlie, I assume there are composite guns in 12 gauge with 3" chambers from the factory. I have a Twist 10 gauge that was chambered for 3 1/2" shells at the factory, when made, and the letter states that.

[edgarspencer]

I have many friends, thanks for asking. I just measured my back action which takes a 12b shell. It measured 1.0000000. That's the best I could do! :rotf:

Picture, or it didn't happen:rotf:

[charlie cleveland]

thanks bill I figured there was some 3 inch guns from factory with composite barrels....like somebody saidparker thought composite steel just as stout as steel barrels ...that's been my opinion too....what grade of gun is that 10 ga with the 32 1/2 inch chambers...is she choked full and full....charlie

[Dean Romig]

So the current owner of 17448 is fitting the 6999 barrels to it?





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[Bill Murphy]

Charlie, it's a six frame N grade full chokes as I recall. A real horse. I have seen English guns with 10 gauge composite barrels with 3 1/2" proof.

[charlie cleveland]

bill with that big 6 frame that gun could handle them 3 1/2 inch shells with ease...what a turkey gun....charlie

[Dave Noreen]

were there ever any 3 inch guns made with Damascus or composite steel barrels guns made...charlie

Possibly Chuck knows the answer to this.

Through the time 99.9% of Parker Bros. composite barrel guns had been made, the heaviest loads (1 1/4-ounce in 12-gauge) our ammunition companies offered could be had in a 2 3/4-inch shell. The perceived advantage of the longer shells was more/better wadding, something considered beneficial by many gun cranks and Pigeon shooters. I'm sure there would have been composite barrel 12-gauge guns ordered for the 2 7/8-, 3- and 3 1/4-inch 12-gauge hulls, but I don't have any facts as to such Parler Bros. guns.

The 12-gauge, 3-inch, progressive burning powder loads with 1 3/8-ounce of shot hit the market in the 1924/5 time frame --

105318

No telling what loads nimrods were stuffing in any length hull, especially before the early 1890s when our ammunition companies first began offering factory loaded shotgun shells.

I've long questioned Murphy's 3 1/2-inch 10-gauge, as 3 1/4-inch is the longest 10-gauge cases I've found offered by any of our ammunition companies before 1932.

[Bill Murphy]

The letter clearly says 3 1/2". It didn't come with any ammunition.

[charlie cleveland]

I have a parker brothers brass shell that is 3 1/4 inches long and 2 umc brass hulls that are 4 inch all of these are 12 ga... I have a box of those 3 inch 1 3/8 ounce shells like you have showing...collecting old ammo is a good habit like parkers are...both together keeps me broke...charlie

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Gentlemen the 20 gauge barrels 6999 have been reunited with the Cape gun 6999 as shown in the Parker Story pg 673, These barrels somehow found their way home! Soooo never give up trying, Gary

[Mills Morrison]

That is amazing and great! Another miracle in this group

[Dean Romig]

It took me a while, Dean, but I found the pictures of the barrel set, 6999, which was one of the 20ga "small frame" guns. I no longer have them, but last I heard, the member who bought them from me was fitting them to Austin's 'small' gun. The picture I was looking for, and found showed my trammel calipers indicating .901" between centers, so roughly 1/32" smaller than the dimension which became the 00 frame centers. That gun must have been a joy to carry.
Interesting fact about 6999. It was originally a two barrel set, one being 20ga. SxS, the other being, If memory serves, .44WCF in the left and 20ga. in the right.



Edgar, you made reference here to "Austin's small gun" and I was wondering if Austin had more than one 20 gauge hammer gun?

The only one I'm aware of his ever owning one was from his story in Parker Pages Vol. 16, Issue 1, page 36, "A Tiny, Scarce and Interesting Parker Gun" serial number 17448 - is there another?





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[edgarspencer]

Edgar, you made reference here to "Austin's small gun" and I was wondering if Austin had more than one 20 gauge hammer gun?

The only one I'm aware of his ever owning one was from his story in Parker Pages Vol. 16, Issue 1, page 36, "A Tiny, Scarce and Interesting Parker Gun" serial number 17448 is there another?

That question would be better answered by Gary, as he bought the barrels from me. I am very excited to hear Gary was able to track down 6999, and reunite the barrels with the gun and Cape barrels.

[Mills Morrison]

What condition are the barrels in and are they strong enough to shoot? I know at least one of the early 20 gauges had very thin walls and were found bulged at the chambers.

. . . 20 gauge barrels for 6999, that is