New Guy with old Parker

[brad kuhn]

Hello All,

I am new to the association and own a Parker 12 ga that I inherited from my grandfather. The gun has been well maintained over the years and has seen little use. I intend to keep it, but I am trying to find out more about the gun and its approximate value. 211530 is stamped on the barrel and on the receiver. the barrel also is stamped with a 12 and 1 1/2, a V with a circle around it, the number 4, and the letters JG with an oval around them. The receiver has V and VH stamped on it. It is a simple gun with minimal carving and scroll work. Is there more to know about this gun? Could anyone in the association comment on ballpark value? I can provide pictures.

Thanks for any interest,
Brad Kuhn
Aiken, SC

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Sounds like you have a Parker VH 12 ga on a 1 1/2 frame. A pretty common, but nice enough gun if it hasnt been tampered with. What length are the barrels? Long barrels are in demand in todays market (32" or longer). Value?, hard to say without pictures, but if in good shape $1000 to 1500. Small bores bring the big money

[Dylan Rhodes]

12 is the gauge
1.5 is the frame size
V and VH both signify a V grade.
4 is the weight of the barrels in pounds and OZ...lack of a second number means 4 pounds flat
JG is the barrel department manager whos name I always mess up.

Ejector vs extractor makes a decent swing in value. Do you know which it has?

[Randy G Roberts]

Hi Brad, welcome to the forum. You have the most common configuration that Parker made, a 30" VH 12 gauge. I believe there were in excess of 30K made as such, yours was made in 1925. The markings you inquired about are as follows:
12- gauge of the gun
1 1/2- frame size (Parker made different size frames)
V in circle-signifies the barrel steel, Vulcan in this case
#4-unstruck barrel weight in lbs. Most times there is a second digit for ounces.
JG in oval- James Geary, inspector
VH-V is the grade, H signifies hammerless.

Also there are surviving records for your gun. Consider joining the PGCA and ordering one. Never know what it might tell you. We gotta have pics to determine value. Condition, condition, condition. Good luck !

[Randy G Roberts]

Dylan is faster than me :)

[Dylan Rhodes]

Dylan is faster than me :)

I was going to say Jim Grier but then I remembered Dean corrected me last time. James Grier came to mind also....Some day I will remember that guys name.

[Garry L Gordon]

I was going to say Jim Grier but then I remembered Dean corrected me last time. James Grier came to mind also....Some day I will remember that guys name.

We all get corrected. You rock, Dylan! Thanks for helping the OP.

[Mike Poindexter]

Geary

[brad kuhn]

Hello all again,

Thank you all for the detailed responses. The barrels are 30 inches and it does have ejectors. I will post some pictures when I get a chance.

Thanks again for your responses,
Brad

[brad kuhn]

Attached are some pics of the gun I have. It has not been fired in about 60 years and is in excellent condition. One pic may show some marring on the barrel, but that must be a lighting artifact as the barrels are nearly perfect.

One significant issue that I see is that the barrel will close but will not lock. The top lever stays extended and forearm latch lever will not close completely. I don't remember this being a problem the last time I fired it - 60 years ago. I may be overlooking something simple or it may need a gunsmith's attention.

Any thoughts on this issue?

Thanks,
Brad

[Garry L Gordon]

Very nice! If you've not shot it 60 years, and it's just been sitting unused, the first order of business is to get it a good cleaning. That might correct those issues.

Again, a very nice gun.

Attached are some pics of the gun I have. It has not been fired in about 60 years and is in excellent condition. One pic may show some marring on the barrel, but that must be a lighting artifact as the barrels are nearly perfect.

One significant issue that I see is that the barrel will close but will not lock. The top lever stays extended and forearm latch lever will not close completely. I don't remember this being a problem the last time I fired it - 60 years ago. I may be overlooking something simple or it may need a gunsmith's attention.

Any thoughts on this issue?

Thanks,
Brad

[Reggie Bishop]

You got some good information on a very nice Parker! Join the PGCA! It is an outstanding organization to be part of.

[brad kuhn]

I am a Parker Gun Collectors Association member; I joined a few day ago. I am interested in the research letter.
Brad Kuhn

[Joe Dreisch]

Very Nice inheritance!! Are you sure you're not confusing joining the forums with joining The Parker Gun Collectors Association? To join PGCA go to the homepage and select "Membership". For the $40.00 dues you get benefits far exceeding your investment. Check it out. Parker Pages magazine (very high quality), reduced research letter cost ($40. instead of $100. non- PGCA member cost, and access to Members Only sections of the forum. Believe me, the best $40. VALUE ever! Welcome!

[brad kuhn]

Joe, I was confused. As of now, I believe I am a member of the Association and the forums.

[Joe Dreisch]

You are, indeed, a member of the PGCA! Welcome, Brad! As time permits, be sure to check out the members only sections of the forum. I am pretty sure that you will like what you see!!

[Brian Dudley]

It looks like a very nice honest gun in great condition!

[Richard Flanders]

Nice! Pretty rare to see a V grade in that condition, and especially with that much case coloring iintact.

[Keith Doty]

Congratulations. Very nice! And all the better to have been a grandfathers. I'd say quite rare to come across a VH in that condition. You definitely should send off to our esteemed researcher for a letter. Then you need a good cleaning , some shells and a box of clays!

[Jim Pasman]

Welcome, Brad! Beautiful Parker probably comes with "loads" of memories. Enjoy your membership.

[Dean Romig]

I would suggest you don't let anyone touch any part of that gun except to simply clean the mechanical aspect of it. Those finishes are probably all original and need to be kept that way in order to keep its value. Any refinishing will severely diminish its value.





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[brad kuhn]

I wish to thank you all again for the warm welcome and for taking time to respond to my posts. Brad

[Chuck Bishop]

Just be aware, you won't get order book info because the order books ended i n Dec 1919 before your gun was built. You'll get the build specifications from the stock book.

[Dale Medders]

That is in great condition. I like it !

[Bruce Hering]

Brad:

What a pristine VH and with family history. As others have said, get it "cleaned good" (strip and clean) by someone who knows what they are doing and go out and enjoy it.

[David Noble]

Hello All,

Could anyone in the association comment on ballpark value?

SC

Brad, barring any unforseen alterations, a VH 12ga with that much original case colors and general great condition is worth at least double what ever value has already been stated in this thread.
I hope you are not selling it!

[Jerry Harlow]

One significant issue that I see is that the barrel will close but will not lock. The top lever stays extended and forearm latch lever will not close completely. I don't remember this being a problem the last time I fired it - 60 years ago. I may be overlooking something simple or it may need a gunsmith's attention.

Any thoughts on this issue?

Thanks,
Brad

These issues need to be addresses and I don't think anyone has. If the lever stays to the right and appears loose you have a broken spring for the top lever. If you can't get the forearm to go on perhaps the the gun was dry fired and the ejectors have fired and they need to be recocked. If you can answer these two questions with more detail someone can advise you.

Is the lever wobbly with no tension once the barrels are closed onto the frame?

The photo looks as if the lever is just not fully closed on the forearm. This happens on guns that the tolerances are tight. Try pressing the forearm against the barrels with your hand and assist the lever to close gently without pushing too hard, with your fingers. It should close.

Maybe that is why it has not been fired for so long and retained its condition; it was broken.

[Brian Dudley]

Any of the issues you have with the gun are likely stemming from the gun just needing a good cleaning. These later guns have coil top lever springs which nearly never break and when they do, the mechanism will usually continue working since the spring is encapsulated in a collar/pocket. The lever not closing is likely more a sticking trip. And the forend not latching is also either due to needing cleaning, or simply your just needing to squeeze harder.

This really is a phenomenal gun. Look at the lines on that stock! Perfectly shown in the profile photos. Quintessential 1920’s Parker!

[Jerry Harlow]

If the barrels close fully it can’t be the trip which holds the lever open. The lug would have pushed the trip fully out of the opening lever. That’s why we need a more detailed description of what is going on with the top lever. Maybe he meant it stays to the right when apart which is correct as some doubles do go back to the natural position and move when one closes the barrels. i did not look at the serial number to determine if it was a jacketed coil spring about which you are correct.

[Mills Morrison]

Late to the party here, but the pictures look great!

[Joe Dreisch]

Judging from picture #4 this is an extractor gun, I think. Stop screw in barrel lug would suggest extractor, correct?

[Phillip Carr]

This is a very nice Parker. Depending on we’re you are located there may be a Gunsmith that is within driving distance of you we’re you can take it. If you post where you are located you will get some solid recommendations from members on who to use.
There are too many hack out there that will take the gun in and return it with buggered screw or more issues then before they started.
If there is not a recommended Smith with in driving distance send it to one of the recommended professionals.
This Parker has survived this long in wonderful condition, don’t trust it to a hammer mechanic.

[Dean Romig]

Never attempt to seat the forend to the barrels by pushing on the wood forward of the latch. It is weakest there because of the cutout in the wood for the latch. Many have broken their forends from not knowing this.





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[Daryl Corona]

The easiest way I've found to get the fore arm to "seat" is to place it in position and hold it in place with slight pressure then open the action. It should snap in place with little force required. YMMV

[brad kuhn]

Double Lab, thanks for the "seating" tip. I just tried that and the forearm lever does now seat, but the top lever still remains ajar. I don't want to snap the barrel shut with too much force. Thanks, Brad

[brad kuhn]

Joe D,
You are correct, this gun has extractors as you pointed out, not ejectors as I had originally mentioned.
Thanks,
Brad

[David Noble]

Brad, looking closer at your pictures I'm not convinced that the barrels are fully seated on the receiver. Try looking closely into the receiver where the lugs fit for some sort of debris or obstruction. Also look into the cavity were the extension seats into the frame.
Quick question, was the gun assembled all this time before you recently pulled it out? If so, was the lever closed, but when you opened it, it would not return when you closed the action?

[brad kuhn]

Thanks for all of your thoughts and suggestions about subject problem.

The last time the gun was fired was by me probably 60 years ago. I vaguely remember the latching problem occurring then. I remember the top lever sticking to the right, and it has remained stuck that way since then. At the time, I was able to separate the barrel from the receiver and store it until now.

A few weeks ago, I got the gun out and tried to put it together. I was partially successful as the barrels would close, the forearm would latch, but the barrels would not latch shut and the top lever would not return to center position. As of today, I can remove the forearm and open the barrels but now I am unable to separate the barrels from the "receiver" (I am not sure of correct terms).

Although I am an ok mechanic, I do not really understand how the gun functions internally, and I do not have any drawings that show how the parts work together.

I am inclined at this point to let a gunsmith take a look, Although I am quite capable, I am very reluctant to start removing screws myself.

I am in Aiken, SC and the forum recommended gunsmiths, Jim Kelly in Darlington, SC and Bill Schwartz in Ellijay, GA, both of them being a couple of hours away from me.

Thank you all for your time and valuable input.
Brad Kuhn

[John Knobelsdorf II]

Maybe this will help you out with maneuvering the pieces apart and back together.

Also an extractor gun.

https://youtu.be/cNzsWStqYtc

[Jerry Harlow]

Brad,

Snap both triggers and the barrels should come off.

Holding the action and stock in your left hand with your thumb holding the opening lever in its current position open to the right, take a small wooden dowel and look in the center of the opening at the breech face and you will see a small metal lever down in the action. Push down on it and see if the lever releases. The trip may be gummed up and holding the lever open. If it allows the lever to return to center the you will know it was stuck. If this works you may be able to apply some oil on it to free it. Just enough to get it to consistently get it to release when the trip is pushed down by the rear barrel lug. Repeat the opening and holding of the lever and the pushing of the trip until it works every time. Let us know.

[Stan Hillis]

Brad, welcome to the association, and congrats on a very nice Parker. Jim Kelly is my go to doublegun smith and I've never found better.

Stan

[brad kuhn]

Thanks guys for sticking with this problem.

John, I watched the video showing the barrels being removed. The gun he had is very similar to mine. One thing I noticed from that video is that his firing pins were visible on disassembly whereas mine are not visible.

J A, I followed your suggestion too. My triggers would not snap; they are frozen in place and will not move backward or forward at all. However, the barrels did suddenly come off, and I don't know why. I am not sure where the "small metal lever" is, but I assumed it is the small metal tab in the slot, directly down from and between the firing pins. I pushed hard on that tab, but it did not move. I tried pushing a few other likely candidates in that slot but nothing moved. I also tried moving the safety, and that had no affect either.

Brad

[John Knobelsdorf II]

Releasing the top lever, here is how Parker Brothers describes it:

https://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=96635&d=1623103172

https://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=96636&d=1623103172

See the next to last paragraph of the upper hangtag (the brown one, not the yellow one).

Your description suggests to me that you found the right spot. Labeled “TRIP” on the pictures of the hangtag.

And if the firing pins are not visible, that suggests the hammers are cocked back. “Hammerless” (so called) Parker Brothers guns do not have a floating firing pin. The pin is on the hammer.

# 2 on this diagram. https://parkerguns.org/images/tech_2.jpg

# 1 & # 2 on this picture. https://parkerguns.org/images/parts.jpg

Hard to imagine but not impossible for pins to have been filed down.

[brad kuhn]

John,

Thanks for the diagrams. They are helpful. Seems to me that the "trip" pin we are talking about is part #20 which is depressed by the cam on the barrel when it closes. The bottom of #20 must slide down into a recess when it is hit from above, allowing the top lever to swing back to center. It may be that debris has gotten under #20 preventing it from depressing fully. I am just arm waving here, and I don't really know what the part numbers in question are or what happens. Tomorrow, I will make a tool to slide under that tab to possibly clear any debris. Barring success with that, next stop is a gunsmith.

Brad

[Jerry Harlow]

Brad,

My fault. You are correct that you cannot snap the triggers to disengage the barrels because with the lever over to the right, the safety reset rod keeps you from pushing the safety off and snapping the triggers.

You have, I think, found the problem. The trip is stuck and will not go down. Again, push down on it after putting a drop of penetrating oil on it. The trip slides down on a pin that fits inside it and has a spring in the hole inside it to push it into the opening lever. Just hold the stock and the lever open while you push down on the part near the breech in the slot where the barrel lug would go. What happens if you close the barrels with a little force? The trip should go down; but maybe there is something under it like a primer or shot. Shine a light in there and you should be able to see if there is something under there holding the trip up from going down.

[brad kuhn]

SUCCESS! I put a couple of drops of penetrating oil under the trip pin as Jerry suggested and pushed down. The trip still would not go down, so I tried to rotate it by gently prying with a screwdriver. It did rotate just a bit but still would not depress. Then, I very gently tapped it with a punch. That did it. After about three taps the trip depressed and the top lever suddenly snapped into place. I put a drop of spindle oil under the trip and the gun works as it should.

I still don't know what was barring the trip pin. Might still be a good idea to have a smith take a look at it and clean the action thoruoughly.

Sorry for all the drama.
Brad Kuhn

[Joe Dreisch]

Congratulations, Brad!!!! Drama, what drama?? I have found that one of the benefits of membership in this organization is access to the wisdom and experience of some of the finest field mechanics in the country.

[Arthur Shaffer]

You would likely be well advised to have a gunsmith or someone familiar to maybe remover the stock and trigger guard and plate. That will allow access to essentially all the internals enough to see and clean them. I recently bought a 10 gauge Hammerless gun near yours in age. It operated well except for being a little stiff. I would swear that the gun had never been opened due to the condition of the screws and their alignment. I even looked at the screw heads through a magnifier. It took over an hour with fitted screwdriver bits, multiple
applications of oil and even had to use the old drill press trick on one. They all finally came lose and I was appalled at the inside. The entire action looked like the inside of an old car wheel bearing. Crammed full of dust and century old gun oil. I degreased it all, relubed, and put a toothpick tip of 40% moly grease on the trigger, sear and striker mating surfaces. When put back together, It worked as smooth as silk.

As stated, you don't want anyone to do this who doesn't know how (and can; that's two different things).

The owner of a gun with a lot of condition would not dream of doing this unless the gun was malfunctioning. For a user gun, I never know when I buy one the internal condition and have found a lot of surprises. Just bought a sleeved H&H boxlock 16 that looked really looked nice. I took it apart to clean and found a tiny internal crack through the center of the head and starting across one side of the delicate grip. Nothing showed inside. I vacuumed glue into it, clamped it and then put two epoxied, angled, blind internal pins inside.

I would hate to have a nice gun I like or a family heirloom have a catastrophic failure because I didn't want to open it up.

[Jerry Harlow]

SUCCESS! I put a couple of drops of penetrating oil under the trip pin as Jerry suggested and pushed down. The trip still would not go down, so I tried to rotate it by gently prying with a screwdriver. It did rotate just a bit but still would not depress. Then, I very gently tapped it with a punch. That did it. After about three taps the trip depressed and the top lever suddenly snapped into place. I put a drop of spindle oil under the trip and the gun works as it should.

I still don't know what was barring the trip pin. Might still be a good idea to have a smith take a look at it and clean the action thoruoughly.

Sorry for all the drama.
Brad Kuhn

A rabbit hunting buddy told me he had his uncle's Parker and the lever would not stay to the right. Had taken it to a gunsmith and it came back that way. Smith told him ALL Parkers worked that way; lever returned to center after opening. He took it to another smith where it stayed for seven years. I took it apart and the three pieces were gone. The first gunsmith had forgotten to put them back in there probably because they were lost in his shop. Took about three days to get the parts from Brian Dudley. A little fitting and it works like new. But while I had it apart it was obvious that the gun had been hunted in the rain or had been in water. But other than missing parts, the gun still worked. I would bet the trip's three parts on your gun either had dried grease holding them together or rust. It should work great now but a once every 100 year cleaning would not hurt. When you look at the trip parts one time, you will understand why I and others hold the lever to the right, close the gun, let the lever go and gently push it to the left to lock the action. I grimace every time my cousin slams his shut as if one is closing a bank vault door.

[brad kuhn]

Brad,

My fault. You are correct that you cannot snap the triggers to disengage the barrels because with the lever over to the right, the safety reset rod keeps you from pushing the safety off and snapping the triggers.

You have, I think, found the problem. The trip is stuck and will not go down. Again, push down on it after putting a drop of penetrating oil on it. The trip slides down on a pin that fits inside it and has a spring in the hole inside it to push it into the opening lever. Just hold the stock and the lever open while you push down on the part near the breech in the slot where the barrel lug would go. What happens if you close the barrels with a little force? The trip should go down; but maybe there is something under it like a primer or shot. Shine a light in there and you should be able to see if there is something under there holding the trip up from going down.

A rabbit hunting buddy told me he had his uncle's Parker and the lever would not stay to the right. Had taken it to a gunsmith and it came back that way. Smith told him ALL Parkers worked that way; lever returned to center after opening. He took it to another smith where it stayed for seven years. I took it apart and the three pieces were gone. The first gunsmith had forgotten to put them back in there probably because they were lost in his shop. Took about three days to get the parts from Brian Dudley. A little fitting and it works like new. But while I had it apart it was obvious that the gun had been hunted in the rain or had been in water. But other than missing parts, the gun still worked. I would bet the trip's three parts on your gun either had dried grease holding them together or rust. It should work great now but a once every 100 year cleaning would not hurt. When you look at the trip parts one time, you will understand why I and others hold the lever to the right, close the gun, let the lever go and gently push it to the left to lock the action. I grimace every time my cousin slams his shut as if one is closing a bank vault door.


JA, thanks for the advice on closing. I am not a door slammer, but I have been letting the lever snap on closing like your cousin. In the future, I will hold the lever and let it come to center gently.

Also, having the gun cleaned every hundred years is not too anal, so I plan to have that done.

[Harryreed]

If you still want it looked at by a gunsmith who is very knowledgeable about a Parker, I can vouch for Bill Schwartz, Ellijay Ga. (706) 276-7668. He fixed up a CH 12 that I have.

[todd allen]

That is a very nice original gun.
The only thing I would add, is DO NOT let anyone go near that gun with a screwdriver, unless they have some credentials as a double gun smith.

[brad kuhn]

I took the gun to Jim Kelly in Darlington, SC, a gunsmith recommended by several members here for service and cleaning. Although his shop seemed very busy, Jim spent some time with me. He and his people were very friendly and seemed knowledgeable. I look forward to hearing what he has to say about the gun other than condition, which he described as excellent. Thanks again to everyone here for helpful comments.