Ruark on gauge for quail.....

[Joseph Sheerin]

One of my favorite writers of all time....

[Garry L Gordon]

One of my favorite writers of all time....

This from a guy who just bought a 20, eh?:)

[Dean Romig]

I see he omitted the 28 gauge.

So, either he wasn't a fan of the 28 or he didn't know it existed. Personally I think it is the gauge of the older gentle man bobwhite or grouse and woodcock shooter, who knows his game and knows his own limitations and level of endurance. I'll take a 28 any day.





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[Daryl Corona]

I've NEVER felt under gunned or handicapped with the 28. To me the perfect gauge for whatever my dog can flush for me.

[Stan Hillis]

I have hunted wild quail since about 1962 with doubleguns. I now do not use larger than a 20 gauge. I use 28s on occasion but, IMO, a 20 gauge is just about perfect for wild quail. Nothing wrong with a 16, either. And, 28s and .410s are about perfect for released birds. Again, IMO.

[Michael Moffa]

A 26" 0 frame 16, carries like a 20 but hits like a 12.

[Joseph Sheerin]

This from a guy who just bought a 20, eh?:)

Ya, but you have to be able to hit them with the 20, before you are excellent..... We will see, but I expect to shoot the new gun well. :)

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Damn right Michael! I do like 28 ga, but never was all that enamored by them. I dont have a Parker , but shoot a Ugartechea 28 ga with 27" IC/M barrels and straight grip. Kill 3-4 grouse/yr and a couple pheasants(released). I have been wanting a 30" 28 ga, and may pick up a Dickinson.
Hunted quail on a SC plantation once and my 26" DHE 16 cyl/mod st grip 6lbs was the classiest gun out there. Actually ordered out of Georgia in 1905, so was probably a quail gun.

[Michael Moffa]

I do have a CSMC RBL 28 with 30" English grip and BTFE. It was one of the launch edition 28's. It took Tony 21 months to get it made. Absolutely a magic wand. I do need a Repro 16, 20 and 28. Gonna have to win the lotto for those.

[CraigThompson]

Hmmm 28 works pretty well . Although this year I did use a 20 on one trip and a 16 on another trip . But if the 28 works for walk ups on pheasants (and it does) a quail is a piece of cake .

[Milton C Starr]

I have been wondering how range changes your quail load/gun needs or wants.
Before 2018 it used to be real close range shooting probably 10-15 yards, then hurricane Michael leveled most of the pine trees. Now you're looking at alot more wide open spaces.

I think this video shows the capabilities of the 28 gauge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcr5Bd0vQqU

[Joseph Sheerin]

I've debated buying a 28 for years.... Never have done it though, because "Pre Pandemic" ammo shortages aside, I always thought that a 20ga gun, with light loads is a lot cheaper to shoot, than the 28's and does about the same thing. I don't do enough quail hunting to really have a desire to own a 28. That said, it's still an itch I feel needs scratching at some point.

I do have a .410, but it's one of those new fangled Rem 1100 autoloading contraptions...

[Daryl Corona]

I have been wondering how range changes your quail load/gun needs or wants.
Before 2018 it used to be real close range shooting probably 10-15 yards, then hurricane Michael leveled most of the pine trees. Now you're looking at alot more wide open spaces.

I think this video shows the capabilities of the 28 gauge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcr5Bd0vQqU

He's pretty much preaching to the choir here. Thanks for the video.

[charlie cleveland]

I would have to stick with the old 12 ga with 26 inch barrels im proved cly and full chokes...charlie

[Garry L Gordon]

A great thread -- Thanks, Pat.

I propose that the best quail gun is one you shoot well and have confidence in; and that you use, preferably over dogs you've trained yourself, in covers you love.

I've used all gauges on quail except a 10. I only use a 12 when I think I might run into a pheasant (which is not often where we hunt).

I've probably killed more quail with a 28 than any other gauge, but mostly because I used one during those years when we had more quail.

I recently bought a nice Watson Bros. 28 with beautiful 28 inch Damascus barrels and it performed perfectly during the 3 or so weeks I used it this year.

A 16 with light loads throws wonderful patterns in the right gun, and a 20 -- well, let's just say it's a proven gauge.

Here's a couple of 28s that have served me well in the quail fields.

[Gerald McPherson]

I recently bought a CZ-USA Woodcock Deluxe 20 gauge from a local fellow who had to give up shooting shotguns due to health issues. I am surprised how smooth it operates, not a hard spot anywhere. He thought he has shot it 1500 to 2000 rounds so it is broken in I suppose. I shot 25 rounds at clays in my backyard a few days ago and I think that little gun was built for me. I'm looking forward to really getting tuned in with it.

[Garry L Gordon]

As I said, a great thread...

Here's a great 12 bore quail gun, a 29" Damascus barreled Dickson round action that weighs not much over 6 lbs and with chokes .008/.013. A delight to carry. I hope the "Great" Askins would approve.

[Daryl Corona]

With all due respect to you and Capt. Askins Harry he wrote in "Modern shotguns and loads", published in 1929 and I quote;

p86: "For personal reasons only I do not like a 12 bore except for waterfowl shooting. The normal gun weighs more than I like to carry, and it has unnecessary power for such birds as snipe, quail, woodcock and grouse. Any time the shooter begins to reason that he needs a lighter gun than seven pounds, take my word for it that he needs a smaller bore than a twelve."

I couldn't agree more.

[Garry L Gordon]

With all due respect to you and Capt. Askins Harry he wrote in "Modern shotguns and loads", published in 1929 and I quote;

p86: "For personal reasons only I do not like a 12 bore except for waterfowl shooting. The normal gun weighs more than I like to carry, and it has unnecessary power for such birds as snipe, quail, woodcock and grouse. Any time the shooter begins to reason that he needs a lighter gun than seven pounds, take my word for it that he needs a smaller bore than a twelve."

I couldn't agree more.

Ha! Now that makes Askins even "Great-er" in my eyes now.:)

[CraigThompson]

It might be worth noting that George Bird Evans after years of carrying Dr. Charles Norris’s Purdey in later years decided to lay it aside and carry an AYA 28 gauge . Now I think that was partly brought on by a bad shoulder , but none the less he still went to a 28 .

[Garry L Gordon]

It might be worth noting that George Bird Evans after years of carrying Dr. Charles Norris’s Purdey in later years decided to lay it aside and carry an AYA 28 gauge . Now I think that was partly brought on by a bad shoulder , but none the less he still went to a 28 .

And, you, young man, have almost 30 years before you get to that point.:):corn:

[Daryl Corona]

And, you, young man, have almost 30 years before you get to that point.:):corn:

We all know how quickly that time goes don't we? I bought my first 28 Parker exactly 50 years ago and we've become quite attached. The 28's will be the last to go.

[allen newell]

I sold off or traded all of my 12 ga Parkers years ago. Now, only shoot 20's. I did buy a 28 ga but it's a Beretta 28 over/under. Very nice and fun to shoot. Have only shot skeet with it but will shoot quail this season with it. My longer term plan is to pick up a 28 ga Parker Repro when my financial stars align for me.

[CraigThompson]

And, you, young man, have almost 30 years before you get to that point.:):corn:

I should hope to make it to 90 :rotf:

[Mills Morrison]

I'm on a small gauge bent myself.

[Joseph Sheerin]

I am in midst of pairing down some of my nice guns, into fewer nicer guns.

A 28 may be in order, but I have to get my hands on my 20ga first. :D

I have a fairly nice 20ga O/U that I had planned to sell, and still might. But when I went down to my gun safe and pulled out to take pics of it, pulled it out of it's sock, then said, nope... not today..... :D I might sell one of my 12ga Citori instead......

[Mills Morrison]

I am doing the same thing. I am slowly putting together a pile to send on. Some I bought for my wife and she never shoots them, so those are easy.

Yes, you need a 20 and a 28 . . . and a 16 . . . and then lots of them

[CraigThompson]

Next season I’m thinking some quail with a 410 needs to happen . I’ve been thinking this for the last two seasons but never followed thru . Won’t happen with a Parker 410 as I doubt I ever find one I’m comfortable affording . But I do have a rather nice little IJ Hercules straight grip and a somewhat beat up Crescent Arms that someone extended the stock . When I have my stuff straight I can hit with either pretty well .

[Andrew Sacco]

I happen to think you can get by with a 16 and 28 for just about all bird hunting. There's something about a 28 kills pheasants like they got hit by a truck, and I do believe it's God's favorite gauge. Re-read Michael McIntosh's essay on them. I have a Repro 28 (that I admittedly don't shoot so well) and a Benelli Ethos Sport in 28, now that's a blast. It will smoke clays if I do my part. I had an old box of RST 1oz 1300fps 28g shells laying around (pigeon loads) and that Ethos just took the heads off roosters, and easy to carry at 5lbs and a few ounces. If we had quail I'd take a 28 over all others but that's just me. I cringe at all the aYa's and Uggie's I passed up years ago because they were "too expensive" to buy. Hindsight.

[Garry L Gordon]

I should hope to make it to 90 :rotf:

Keep eating well and hunting and you'll make it! You've got 30 more years...buy a Parker .410 on the payment plan.:)

[Garry L Gordon]

We all know how quickly that time goes don't we?

Amen...too quickly.

[Stan Hillis]

Sir Joseph Nickerson, who died in 1990, switched from 12 bores to 20s later in life (1972, to be exact), then to 28's in his later years. He favored 13/16 oz. of no. 5's for high pheasant in the 20s, not sure what load in the 28s, and accounted for staggering numbers of gamebirds per day. He decried shooting close and low birds, favoring high birds and challenging presentations. His reason for going to the "little guns", weight. He said that as he grew older the 12s were just too heavy for him to lift all day, and that by conserving energy he could shoot better later in the day. He also pioneered the use of over and unders on the driven shoots of Britian and Spain, favoring them over the side by sides.

A true "big shot" of modern times, Joe accomplished feats equal to Lord Ripon, but with 28 bores. He shot more grouse in his last fifteen years than did Ripon (who used 12s) in his last fifteen. Ripon, who it is said took 97,503 grouse in his lifetime, killed 3435 grouse in his best year using 12 bores. Nickerson, in 1988, took 3390 with 28s, and over 3000 the previous year.

Joe was a great student of the shotgun, and went to great lengths to recover all shot birds. He knew his limits of range and stayed within them, striving always to center the birds head in his pattern. The center of the pattern is not much different between guages, but is deadly in all of them. Never having shot flushed pheasants (in the butt), I can see where the smaller guages would be more limited in range as compared to the 12. The rear of any bird is the toughest presentation to cleanly down the bird. But for the head-on and crossing driven game he chased the small guns suited him just fine.

I have a 28, a FAIR Verona with 30" barrels, and I shoot it pretty good. But, when I want to go small I go really small, down to my .410s. I have three .410 doubles, all with 30" barrels, one of them with screw-in chokes. They are the most fun on a dove field that you can have with your clothes on.

[John Davis]

J. J. Pringle, "Twenty Years' Snipe-Shooting," records bagging 78,602 snipe over the course of his hunting career. Snipe being the hardest of all game birds to hit, IMHO. He accomplished this with light English 12 gauges.

As far as Bobwhite quail go, if I'm shooting pen raised birds then the 20 or 28 gauge is more than adequate. If it's wild birds I'm chasing then I'm not proud, I'll usually go with a 16 or 12. I'm just not that good of a wing shot and since I'm typically hunting off horse back, weight isn't a concern.

As an aside, AKC doesn't allow a gauge smaller than 20 in a retrieving call back.

As to the vaulted .410, great for training young dogs steady to wing and shot but that's about it for me.

[Bill Murphy]

Craig attended an auction a few short months ago where he turned down an astounding 28 gauge Parker fully optioned quail gun for short money. I was surprised. Of course, I'm as guilty as he, because I turned down Doctor Norris' Purdey quail gun for the same kind of short money, but a few years earlier.

[Stan Hillis]

Choke is a wonderful tool, if used properly. Choke constriction can make a small bore's pattern density the equal of a big bores', especially at the core. Density and individual pellet energy is what kills birds, not bore size. Four pellets delivered to the vitals of a dove or quail from a small bore have exactly the same ability to disable and kill as four pellets from a big bore, given identical pellet weights, construction and velocity.

The way the smaller bores can (and do) deliver the same density is by utilizing a greater amount of choke constriction. This, of course, decreases the overall size of the pattern which requires more skill in placing the pattern on the bird. Therein lies the challenge to the gunner.

I believe in the ethical taking of game, and over the years have scrutinized my ability to take small game birds with a .410 closely. I don't "stretch it" when it comes to range. My .410s, with my .73 ounce handloads of nickel plated 8s are solid performers out to 30-35 yards on doves, a bit less on quail, because of the need to drive pellets up through the body into the vitals, from the rear usually.

I don't look down on anyone who makes a rational and ethical choice of gun and loads for game birds or ducks. I love my 16s and 12s, and shoot the 12s more than any other gauge, by far. It just seems to me to be a big waste of resources and recoil when I see guns on a dove field, or in the quail woods, using 1 1/8 oz. of shot to kill a little bird of a few ounces weight, when 1 1/4 oz. will deck any big duck that ever flew. Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, of course, but I have watched this in amazement here, for many, many years. JMOBOE.

[Daryl Corona]

So very well said Stan. Sir Joseph is a man that I would have loved to share a dove field with. I know not every one takes shooting a shotgun as seriously as you but my firm belief is that if you are going to take a gun into the field to pursue game you owe it to your quarry and yourself to be as proficient as humanly possible to make clean kills. That requires burning a lot of powder during the year and not just the week before the season opens.

[Mills Morrison]

One obstacle to my getting a Parker 410 is that money could buy another Parker 28 gauge with money left over.

The older I get, the more I like full chokes

[todd allen]

Ruark also said this:
105014

[Mills Morrison]

Enough is one thing. Too much is another

[Stan Hillis]

Shotgunning gamebirds cannot be compared to using rifles on big game. My previous post about the number of pellets placed on target explains why. You can put just as many pellets on target with a small bore as with a larger bore, up to a point. Not so when comparing a 150 gr. bullet to a 350 gr. bullet. The energy delivered to the quarry is vastly different.

[Joseph Sheerin]

Ruark also said this:
105014

Couldn't agree more with him on that..... I hear a lot of people say, a 223 Rem will kill deer just fine.... With a well placed shot. I hunt deer in Northern MO, and some of the bucks I have killed, even a well place 22 cal wasn't going to bring them down quickly....

I guess as with many things in life, there is always the question of.... Ya, you can do it that way, but why would you if there are much better ways of getting it done......

IMHO for whitetail deer in my home state, anything less than a 6mm/.243 cal is not taking enough gun..... 6mm-30cal is what you need.

In the case of quail with a shotgun, it's a bit different, because using a .410 usually means you either kill the bird stone dead, or completely miss..... Shotgunning the margin of error is "Missing vs hitting", with big game rifes it's "Wounding vs Killing".

[todd allen]

With regard to full chokes, a hit is history, and a miss is a mystery.

[CraigThompson]

I’ve gone the gamut with shotguns killing game birds with everything from an 8 down to a 410 . While I don’t consider myself the end all expert I feel I have a pretty decent grasp of most situations . To me it’s more a matter of the individual knowing their own limitations with a specific gauge and shot size for a specific bird . As to the rifle or whatever versus the whitetail deer . Again I don’t think myself the end all authority but I do believe I’ve got a pretty decent amount of practical application experience . And again the cartridge is kind of a moot point to me , I’m pretty picky about my shots and rarely do I shoot at running deer . So a head shot at a doe during damage control with a 222 , 223 or 220 Swift at 200 yards is no big deal . Now to the other end of the spectrum a person can use some of the so called African cartridges I see no issue with that as well . As Elmer Keith who I’m no great fan of said “you can eat right up to the bullet hole” and I’ve found that to be true with 375 H&H , 416 Rem Mag , 416 Rigby and of all things the 505 Gibbs . FWIW the 505 belongs to a friend and I plunked a deer with it one day during damage control while he was sitting beside me . No great feat in itself . Birds or deer to me it’s all a matter of knowing your own limitations with whatever happens to be in your hands at the time .

[Jack Kuzepski]

Daryl told us what Capt. Askins had to say about the 12 gauge so I decided to see what he said about his choice of gauge for bird hunting. Here's what he wrote : What the sixteen will not do on quail and snipe, loaded with 1-1/8 ounces of shot, is not to be done, and at the same time the arm would be a pound lighter than a twelve for the same cartridge energy, and far more handy, with of course less weight of ammunition to burden coat pockets. For my own use, if I could own but one gun, that one would be a 16 bore, 6-3/4 pounds weight, 30 inch barrels, one modified and the other full choke, and I'd be liable to say, "Get thee behind me Satan for you cannot tempt me any further."

[Garry L Gordon]

"Get thee behind me Satan for you cannot tempt me any further."

Jack, that 16 he describes sounds familiar, and it would be an end-all upland gun. As for me, Satan successfully tempts me all the time.:banghead::crying:

[Bill Murphy]

Sorry, but Harry G and Daryl are comparing two vastly different authors with vastly different philosophies on shotguns. Sorry again, if I missed their corrections, but five pages of dialogue is a bit much to review.

[Mills Morrison]

What Craig says is about my philosophy. Knowing the capabilities of your gun and ammunition go the longest way

[Daryl Corona]

Sorry, but Harry G and Daryl are comparing two vastly different authors with vastly different philosophies on shotguns. Sorry again, if I missed their corrections, but five pages of dialogue is a bit much to review.

Sorry Murph, we were both quoting Chas. Askins from his various writings.

[Reggie Bishop]

Meh. Just shoot a 20. If you miss it isn’t the gun’s fault. Country boy reasoning.

[Bill Murphy]

Daryl, you were quoting two different Charles Askins'.

[CraigThompson]

Meh. Just shoot a 20. If you miss it isn’t the gun’s fault. Country boy reasoning.

That’s kinda similar to my old skeet shooting reasoning . Shoot a K-32 or K-80 so if you miss atleast you looked good doing it :rotf::rotf::rotf:

[Daryl Corona]

Daryl, you were quoting two different Charles Askins'.

I didn't know there were two. My bad.:crying:

[Jack Kuzepski]

Bill is right. The Charles Askins who wrote Modern Shotguns and Loads (1929) was the father of the Charles Askins jr. that wrote The Shotgunners Book (1959). Charles Junior was really known for handguns and handgunning. The father was really known for shotgunning.

[Daryl Corona]

Thanks Jack for refreshing my aging memory. I knew that in the back of my mind but it was stuck in some cobwebs.

[CraigThompson]

Bill is right. The Charles Askins who wrote Modern Shotguns and Loads (1929) was the father of the Charles Askins jr. that wrote The Shotgunners Book (1959). Charles Junior was really known for handguns and handgunning. The father was really known for shotgunning.

If I’m not mistaken Sr was the one that got the first of the Ithaca NID 10 Mags that later went to Keith and was sold again in the last four or five years .

[Jack Kuzepski]

Craig,

I believe you are right about the Ithaca NID 3-1/2" magnum 10 gauge.