Non Factory Case Colors on Repro

[Robert Calamusso II]

Gents !

Does one devalue a Repro by having bone and charcoal case colors refitted to the Repro ?

Even Turnbulls.

Thx

[Bob Jurewicz]

Great question! I have a 20 GA with Turnbull Colors. It is in almost new condition in every way so it was not an effort to restore a worn gun. Makes gun look much better and more original. Next step will be to have Brian Dudley add the proper borders.
I do not believe these modifications will either add or take away from the value of the gun.
Bob Jurewicz

[edgarspencer]

If two otherwise identical guns were offered up for sale, the one with real case hardening would sell first. As Bob said, above, having the borders mullered, and I would add, the synthetic finish replaced with a nice oil finish, The gun will be far more attractive to me.

[John Allen]

If you compare 2 guns both new.One with original colors and one with good aftermarket colors, there is little difference in price. The difference in price will show up after the guns are used and handled. The original repro colors will come off faster than bone charcoal colors causing the gun to look more worn. After use,the aftermarket gun will hold its value much better than the original.

[Brian Dudley]

Except for a few that may care, I would say that it does not really matter. If anything it may help the gun for those who care about the colors looking better and more "legit".

[allen newell]

The colors on the Repros that i have are getting pretty thin. Im considering have them re-colored bone charcoal. Any recommendations on who would be best to undertake this work?

[Dean Romig]

It is my opinion based on fact that having the checkering borders redone with Parker (Meriden) mullered would not be in keeping with what the gun was originally intended to reproduce - but then neither were the Kodensha borders a good reproduction of the Remington Ilion examples Tom Skeuse had sent to be copied. The Remington Parkers made in Ilion did not have mullered borders as did the Meriden guns.

See examples of original Ilion checkering borders below.


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[Bob Jurewicz]

Here are some Turnbull Colors.
Bob Jurewicz

[Bill Murphy]

I agree with all posters who say that real bone charcoal colors add to the value of a high condition Repro. I also agree that properly done mullered borders are a nice touch even though they are not proper of an Ilion Parker. The only negative factor is that the owner of this upgraded Repro will have a bit more money invested, probably happily invested.

[Dan Steingraber]

I recently acquired a beautifully refinished VH 28 that I’ve decided to have the cyanide case colors removed and replaced with bone and charcoal. I personally find the bone and charcoal colors more appealing and my hope is it will look closer to original.

[Bill Murphy]

Dan, who did your case colors?

[Dan Steingraber]

Dan, who did your case colors?

Bill, I believe that DelGrego did the refinish.

[allen newell]

Ive been under the impression that DelGrego only does cyanide colors

[Dan Steingraber]

Ive been under the impression that DelGrego only does cyanide colors

I believe you are correct. That’s why I’m having them redone.

[Dean Romig]

Actually these days he sends them out for bone charcoal colors.





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[John Dallas]

For my money, no one did them better than Batchelder. Has anyone had any case hardening experience from his shop since he passed?

[Bill Murphy]

I guess I was asking who did the re-recoloring. I didn't realize you had not had them re redone yet. Thanks.

[Brian Dudley]

Actually these days he sends them out for bone charcoal colors.





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Yes, to turnbull. For close to 10 years now.

[Dan Steingraber]

A local friend of mine has a fellow in Kentucky that does some case coloring for him. He did the gun I had the mishap with and I've seen a few others he's done. 109262

109263

109264

[Bob Jurewicz]

Steiner,
Sorry to say, I would not be happy with those colors.
Bob Jurewicz

[allen newell]

Ill have Turnbull recase the colors on my Repros.

[Victor Wasylyna]

For my money, no one did them better than Batchelder. Has anyone had any case hardening experience from his shop since he passed?

This question still needs a response.

-Victor

[Matt Buckley]

Victor,
Don't even think about Bachelder. They have had a 20 gauge repro of mine for 4 years for case coloring and I can't get them to send me my gun back. I call and demand they ship it back every couple weeks and they say I will have it in two weeks and no gun. My advice would be to avoid them like the plague.

[Brian Dudley]

Contact the atf and report the gun stollen. That should light a fire under their butts to get your gun back or at least come clean as to what happened to it.

[allen newell]

Victor, Brad Bachelder was a master craftsman. He colored one of my guns and the colors came out very well. Brad did other work for me over the years and his work was always excellent.
Ive not used Bachelders since Brads unfortunate passing. His son now runs the shop. The cyinide colors on one of my Repro 20's is pretty thin. Ill either have Turnbull do the case colors or see if Dan Cullity can do them. Dan is local here in Barnsteable

[Dean Romig]

Allen, I thought Dan was in East Sandwich. He was when I visited him a few years ago.





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[Jay Gardner]

Contact the atf and report the gun stollen. That should light a fire under their butts to get your gun back or at least come clean as to what happened to it.

Filing a false police report? Brilliant. Maybe you should stay in your lane. Seriously, what a stupid suggestion.

[Brian Dudley]

Filing a false police report? Brilliant. Maybe you should stay in your lane. Seriously, what a stupid suggestion.

4 years of keeping someones gun with multiple failed promises to deliver and no excuse as to why? How does Matt not know that the gun is not lost?

What else may you suggest? Asking nicely, multiple times? It sounds like that has happened. Maybe a long drive and showing up in person demanding it be returned is the only other option. Or wait 4 more years.?

Last year I had guy I had never talked to before call me crying the blues to me because he had his gun there for over 5 years for what was supposed to be a barrel refinish and a stock refinish. I was at a loss for why he was calling me and telling me his woes. He was asking me for advice I guess, I told him to call and demand his gun back in whatever state it was in. Write off the time lost and get it back in hand.

[edgarspencer]

Ive not used Bachelders since Brads unfortunate passing. His son now runs the shop. The cyinide colors on one of my Repro 20's is pretty thin. Ill either have Turnbull do the case colors or see if Dan Cullity can do them. Dan is local here in Barnsteable

I had a gun at their shop for a second set of barrels to be fitted, when Brad died. It took me over a year to get it back after dozens (No exaggeration) of broken promises, and outright lies. Mother and son couldn't even agree on the BS. It came back with a nice reblued finish and daylight showing through the breech face. I'd use Rustoleum before I use them again.

The fake colors of a Reproduction are not 'Case' colors, or the result of any heat treat process. It is a dye applied to (barely) simulate case colors.

[Jay Gardner]

4 years of keeping someones gun with multiple failed promises to deliver and no excuse as to why? How does Matt not know that the gun is not lost?

What else may you suggest? Asking nicely, multiple times? It sounds like that has happened. Maybe a long drive and showing up in person demanding it be returned is the only other option. Or wait 4 more years.?

Last year I had guy I had never talked to before call me crying the blues to me because he had his gun there for over 5 years for what was supposed to be a barrel refinish and a stock refinish. I was at a loss for why he was calling me and telling me his woes. He was asking me for advice I guess, I told him to call and demand his gun back in whatever state it was in. Write off the time lost and get it back in hand.

I have never had a problem with Brad, Parker or Lori responding to phone calls or e-mail. Regardless, you hold yourself out as an expert on all things Parker and for you to suggest someone file a false police report is incredibly irresponsible.

[Karl Ferguson]

So what would you suggest Jay after 4 years of broken promises ? ?

Maybe you could offer to help Matt since you have no problems with them...

[Victor Wasylyna]

Filing a false police report? Brilliant. Maybe you should stay in your lane. Seriously, what a stupid suggestion.

That’s a bit harsh.

If a person legally takes possession of my Parker (I sent it to them for repair), but then refuses to return my Parker, even after several years of demands (in writing), I would say such person committed “theft by conversion.” You Michiganders might use the old school “larceny by conversion.” Whatever you call it, it’s a theft and it’s appropriate to report such a theft to the ATF.

-Victor

[Brian Dudley]

Since Jay in in MI maybe he can can check things out for Matt. ?

[Jay Gardner]

Victor,
Don't even think about Bachelder. They have had a 20 gauge repro of mine for 4 years for case coloring and I can't get them to send me my gun back. I call and demand they ship it back every couple weeks and they say I will have it in two weeks and no gun. My advice would be to avoid them like the plague.

Matt;

Unless I missed it, I don’t see where you have made a demand for the return of your gun, in writing. If not I suggest that you do so, including the date they received the gun, the serial number, the work to be done and document as best you can the number of times you called and who you have spoken to. Ask the gun be returned to you, at their expense, within 30-days of receipt of the letter, and tell them if the run has not been received within 30-days you will contact the Grand Rapids Police Department. Express your disappointment and your frustration, but be professional, keeping it short and confined to the facts. Send the letter registered mail, return receipt requested.

I suggest you send the letter to Lori Bachelder’s attention (but confirm first that she is still working there). If she is not, send it to Parker Bachelder. Keep a photo copy of the letter.

That’s my advice.

JDG

[Jay Gardner]

That’s a bit harsh.

If a person legally takes possession of my Parker (I sent it to them for repair), but then refuses to return my Parker, even after several years of demands (in writing), I would say such person committed “theft by conversion.” You Michiganders might use the old school “larceny by conversion.” Whatever you call it, it’s a theft and it’s appropriate to report such a theft to the ATF.

-Victor

I think Matt needs to make a formal demand, in writing, to the owner(s), Parker and/or Lori Bachelder. In terms of reporting it, larceny/conversion is a state offense, not a federal offense. The GR PD will investigate, and if the facts justify a possible criminal charge, they will refer the matter to the Kent Co Prosecutor, and request a warrant be issued.

I hope that upon receipt of the letter Lori or Parker will respond promptly and return the firearm.

JDG

[Dean Romig]

Send them a Registered Letter where their signature is required upon receipt of it. Keep your copy of the letter and keep the US Postal Service copy of that receipt when you receive it.
Demand the return of your gun within 30 days. This will begin your record-keeping process. Up to this point it has been nothing more than “he said - she said” and will not hold up in any court.
From that point on, any communication with them should be done by mail. Do not accept any telephone calls from them. Emails are ok because they can be printed or stored in a folder on your PC but NO phone calls because that goes back to “he said - she said”.




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[Victor Wasylyna]

I would say that Jay has just given Matt some great advice.

-Victor

[Victor Wasylyna]

And further to Jay’s great advice, whether or not you report to the ATF (in addition to local PD) depends on whether you have a federal firearms license, such as a C&R. If you have an FFL, you must report a theft. If you do not have an FFL, reporting to the ATF is not even an option.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/report-firearms-theft-or-loss

-Victor

[Bill Murphy]

The paragraph referring to the reporting of theft from non FFL holders goes off on a tangent and starts talking about assigning serial numbers. It was obviously written by a semi literate ATF employee who does not address the original question.

[Dan Steingraber]

I’m disheartened by the number and severity of the “rough edges” included in this thread. I humbly and respectfully ask that we just help this fellow get his gun back.

[Matt Buckley]

I had a conversation with Lori Bachelder on Thursday and she apologized up one side and down the other and blamed it on herself for not getting my repro shipped back. She promised I would have it in a week. If not I will send a letter. Thanks for the advice. I will keep you posted.

[Kirk Potter]

Any update?

[Matt Buckley]

I was told Friday by Lori that the ATF has been there all week auditing them and that they should be done next week and they can start shipping firearms again. Is it true or just another story to put me off I don't know.

[Dean Romig]

I wonder if the ATF was taking serial numbers and owners’ names????





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[Dean Romig]

I wonder if the ATF was taking serial numbers and owners’ names????





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[edgarspencer]

The only thing they care about it that if it’s on the premises, it’s entered in their book, and from whom it came from.

They must get audited a lot, because they told me that when I was trying to get mine back.

[Bill Murphy]

:corn::corn::corn:

[Matt Buckley]

My internal BS meter was going off as I was listening to the song and dance.

[Jim Beilke]

Bachelders are advertising guns for sale on Gun broker and Guns International. Something is "fishy" that they can't get Matts'gun shipped to him. How can they do business this way?

[Bill Murphy]

What member name do they use on the two sites?

[edgarspencer]

One scenario which comes to mind, is that, in heat treatment, they warped the frame beyond repair. This is conceivable if temps got away from him, or quench went south.
I don’t think Matt said what the configuration of his gun was, but there are plenty out there, and if I cared for my reputation, and I failed in that (potential) scenario, I think I’d pony up for a replacement gun, instead of compounding my sins with seemingly never ending BS

[Matt Buckley]

They sell guns under bachelderfirearms on gunbroker. They have 50 guns listed at the moment including a Parker VHE and DH in 20 gauge.

[Bill Murphy]

I know this question is being buried deep in a long thread, but how much does Doug Turnbull charge to case harden a Parker if it is sent to them assembled and returned the same way? I had one done a few years ago, but there were additional charges that I can't separate from the case color charges. By the way, I was very satisfied with the result.

[Brian Dudley]

I know this question is being buried deep in a long thread, but how much does Doug Turnbull charge to case harden a Parker if it is sent to them assembled and returned the same way? I had one done a few years ago, but there were additional charges that I can't separate from the case color charges. By the way, I was very satisfied with the result.



Contact them and ask.

Their cch pricing is published on their site. But the labor to take down, prep and assemble will be additional and vary based on the gun.

[Bill Murphy]

The fact that Doug does not price the service in his price list is why I asked the question.

[Brian Dudley]

The fact that Doug does not price the service in his price list is why I asked the question.

Ok. They used to have pricing for doubles and lever guns published. I think their retail price is around $400 now to do a doublegun and related parts. That is for a prepped and ready to go frame. Requesting a quote would be the best way to go still. However, in order for them to know how much surface prep may be needed, they may want to see photos before quoting, which may be an issue in your case.

:duck:

[Bill Murphy]

I just thought I could get one of our members to tell me what the full disassembly and reassembly added to the base cost of case color in their particular case. Many of us have had minty Repros redone with bone charcoal, with disassembly and reassembly included. What did that cost?

[Kirk Potter]

I just thought I could get one of our members to tell me what the full disassembly and reassembly added to the base cost of case color in their particular case. Many of us have had minty Repros redone with bone charcoal, with disassembly and reassembly included. What did that cost?

$550, although its been a few years, so I would assume more now.

[Bill Murphy]

Was the $550 for the disassembly, reassembly, and related extras or the whole job?

[Kirk Potter]

Was the $550 for the disassembly, reassembly, and related extras or the whole job?

That was for everything, including touching up some engraving.

[allen newell]

Use Turnbul

[Brian Dudley]

Use Turnbul

You used to be dead set against that. What changed?

[edgarspencer]

Use Turnbul

In your original post which you apparently deleted, you stated that only Brad did the case hardening at Bachelders.

Who told you that?

Brad told me, at the dinner in Baltimore, a few years ago, that Parker was doing the case hardening. I had them do my 30" 16ga hammer gun done, and remarked how well they matched the Meriden colors. Parker was sitting at the table with us, and Brad pointed to him and said "he did your gun".

My issue with them is not What they they are capable of, but When will they do it.

[Brian Dudley]

I know the dinner you were speaking of Edgar. It was the annual meeting held in conjunction with the baltimore gun show.
It was at that dinner that my pregnant wife was told that the reason not to employ women was because they might get pregnant and leave their employer hanging. She was pissed to say the least.

[edgarspencer]

the reason not to employ women was because they might get pregnant and leave their employer hanging. :rotf::rotf:

Other than in the office, there were a few women working in the foundry. One of them was the best welder I had ever seen, but the only way she was going to get pregnant was by immaculate conception.

[allen newell]

Brian and Edgar, Brad told me that he was the only one in the shop that did the colors. This was several years prior to his passing.

Brian, absent Brad Bachelder, my default on case colors would be Turnbull.

[John Dallas]

My understanding is that Brad passed his knowledge on to Parker

[edgarspencer]

That’s essentially what he expressed to me also, John. That conversation was only a bit before he passed away. Whether Parker has continued to do it as well as the gun his father said his son had done, I couldn’t say, but I will say this; they were as close to high condition original Meriden colors as I have seen.
It’s unfortunate that he didn’t turn out to be the businessman his father was.

[John Dallas]

I have no ideaI about Parker's ability, but when you're 50% of your billable hours, and 90% (?) of your knowledge base, things are going to be tough. If I were in Parker's shoes, the first thing I would have done is to not take in any new work.

[Matt Buckley]

I have a UPS Tracking # from Bachelder's so my Parker Reproduction is finally being returned. I was on the phone almost every day last week hounding them till they finally got me a tracking number. I would be very cautious with doing business with them at this point.